G25-550 on BAM - spool tastic

[badger5]

For those interested in these new baby garretts, the G25 series, below is initial results whilst bedding in a new 1.9 build we've done, on a BAM TT, with the smaller G25-550 unit.
Engine is 82.5mm bore, smallport, std cams, nortech mani & dp, decat, Ignitron ecu.

Comparison plots off dyno against a std k04 car, and my ibiza which is largeport, 1.9, G25-660 unit.
yellow, std k04 turbo, red G25-550, violet badgerwagen g25-660. Just look at the torque onsets between G25-550 and std k04... On the road it literally feels like driving a very peppy k04 car, but ont which has 450bhp potential. Can't wait for running in period and getting it turned up.

Ignitron logs, showing spool up..

 

[S3AMJ]

For those interested in these new baby garretts, the G25 series, below is initial results whilst bedding in a new 1.9 build we've done, on a BAM TT, with the smaller G25-550 unit.
Engine is 82.5mm bore, smallport, std cams, nortech mani & dp, decat, Ignitron ecu.

Comparison plots off dyno against a std k04 car, and my ibiza which is largeport, 1.9, G25-660 unit.
yellow, std k04 turbo, red G25-550, violet badgerwagen g25-660. Just look at the torque onsets between G25-550 and std k04... On the road it literally feels like driving a very peppy k04 car, but ont which has 450bhp potential. Can't wait for running in period and getting it turned up.

Ignitron logs, showing spool up..

That’s an amazing result so far! Part of me is kicking myself for not going the same route, still I’m very happy with the hybrid roll on fitting


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rainbird]

Should be pretty quick off the mark!

Dropped you an email last week, Bill. Might swing by B5 HQ briefly if you're likely to be about at the weekend?

 

[desertstorm]

Impressive results, gives people a bit of a headache now deciding on stopping with the K04 or moving on. There are quite a few other turbos in the G25 range that seem to be now coming available.
They do a G25-550 with a T25 flange and a built in wastegate 0.49ar.
https://www.turbozentrum.de/Garrett-G25-550-Turbocharger-049-A-R-T25-V-Band-WG

 

[badger5]

Should be pretty quick off the mark!

Dropped you an email last week, Bill. Might swing by B5 HQ briefly if you're likely to be about at the weekend?

yea, deffo here saturday most of the day
I've got your email on my to do list... a little bit manic here work wise currently. Quietening down momentarily thankfully

 

[badger5]

Impressive results, gives people a bit of a headache now deciding on stopping with the K04 or moving on. There are quite a few other turbos in the G25 range that seem to be now coming available.
They do a G25-550 with a T25 flange and a built in wastegate 0.49ar.
https://www.turbozentrum.de/Garrett-G25-550-Turbocharger-049-A-R-T25-V-Band-WG

yea. personally t25 flanged iwg setups have always disappointed. I'll stick with vband setups, which I know deliver the goods, and dont suffer bolt backouts and gasket issues.
Imagine a stroker G25-550 tho, k03s spool, and 450bhp/400lbft capable...


Are you up and running with yours and iecu? Not heard from you at all

 

[desertstorm]

Thought the T25 might be an option for somebody with an existing manifold or looking to not spend as much as there are plenty of T25 manifolds available.
Currently rebuilding my engine posted an update on the build thread asking a few questions. Dropped the head off this afternoon to get it cleaned up and new valve guides fitted. Ignitron working great had it running speed density with no issues before I took the engine / gearbox out.
https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threa...car-engine-rebuild.319422/page-6#post-3368241

 

[Bluepower]

Buddy of mine will run the G25-550 on his Golf mk2 20vt DSG... hopefully within 2 months up and running, cant wait to drive that beast!

 

[Prawn]

Great stuff Bill!

Whilst I've got the 660, I'm very keen to see what the 550 is capable of.

I realise small port and stock Cams are at play but even so I didn't expect to see such a difference over the 660, which itself is a very eager unit low down!

It'll be good to see what it does when it's turned up then overlay that plot with something more conventional of equal power, I'm assuming gt3071 sort of thing.

It seems like these G25 units will soon render all the GT range obsolete!

 

[<tuffty/>]

It seems like these G25 units will soon render all the GT range obsolete!

Not unless one does over 600 hp they won't lol..

<tuffty/>

 

[badger5]

Great stuff Bill!

Whilst I've got the 660, I'm very keen to see what the 550 is capable of.

I realise small port and stock Cams are at play but even so I didn't expect to see such a difference over the 660, which itself is a very eager unit low down!

It'll be good to see what it does when it's turned up then overlay that plot with something more conventional of equal power, I'm assuming gt3071 sort of thing.

It seems like these G25 units will soon render all the GT range obsolete!

the Tt returns on 9th feb so we will know by close of play then what it can do.

 

[Prawn]

Not unless one does over 600 hp they won't lol..

<tuffty/>

Apparently G28, G30 and G35 variants are on their way. GT will be old hat when they arrive

They already launched a G42 1200 PT. Your next turbo!

https://www.garrettmotion.com/racing-and-performance/performance-catalog/turbo/g-series-g42-1200/

 

[<tuffty/>]

Apparently G28, G30 and G35 variants are on their way. GT will be old hat when they arrive

They already launched a G42 1200 PT. Your next turbo!

https://www.garrettmotion.com/racing-and-performance/performance-catalog/turbo/g-series-g42-1200/

May be a little excessive but a G35 or even a G30 sounds interesting... be nice to get similar top end power with better spool... will have to see I guess

<tuffty/>

 

[JonnyDerv]

This is very interesting.

 

[Prawn]

TT back in tomorrow

Bumping this because I'm excited for results

 

[superkarl]

I want to start all over again

 

[Stuart B]

A TT is a natural progression Karl, I realise there's not as much space for toolkit and spare parts, but you can fill both rear seats.

 

[Tj 0785]

A TT is a natural progression Karl, I realise there's not as much space for toolkit and spare parts, but you can fill both rear seats.

Plenty of room for a make up bag though

 

[Stuart B]

and my velvet jodpurs

 

[badger5]

ok. some results from yesterdays testing... Not as good as I hoped because of hardware restrictions, namely airtec fmic 60mm and its pipework not coping so well with the flow required of it (its not made for bigger turbos but for k04's remember) and only 95ul in car when arrived.

I believe with the right size intercooler, and turning up the boost past 25psi it will indeed be a 450bhp capable turbo, but as is all too often the case in this tuning game, you keep pushing and find the next weakest/flow restricting part. In this instance its 60mm fmic/pipe setup and the car arrived with 95ul in the tank not really helping for best results. 18ltrs vpower jerry can added to the 1/2 tank of 95ul to "help" things, but ign timing not as ideal as you would want... not much timing tolerated, but surprisingly even with this the egt's were only what a std k04 car would do under 1/2 the duress this was subjected to. EGT probe mounted pre-turbine in collector area Now this engine is 82.5mm bore, std smallport, std inlet manifold, std cams, no meth. Ignitron ecu.

Headline figures

Compound report comparing against a stg 1 std k04

the unwanted pressure drop measured across the fmic/pipework combo at 25psi plenum boost

A Stress test run done, on a nasty long high load ramp rate.. egt's just reached 920c despite 30 secs full load run - 14'c ambient but 40c aits' which on larger fmic setup like toyo type B would be only +10c over ambient also not helping.

So its now going to get a toyosport type B cooler fitted to it, will be run on 99ul fuel, and return for some more tweaking and turning up at a later date TBC.

 

[JonnyDerv]

Why do people buy performance cars or spend thousands on tuning to put 95 in? Baffling.

 

[badger5]

Why do people buy performance cars or spend thousands on tuning to put 95 in? Baffling.

simply case of he didn't realise. He does now and will be a 99UL user.

 

[JonnyDerv]

simply case of he didn't realise. He does now and will be a 99UL user.

You see it a lot at stations and on the net. I saw a guy filling an rs6 with 95 before. 70k car filling with 95. It’s like they think 99 is a con. I can understand people who aren’t into cars assuming all fuel is the same, but if you’re an enthusiast, surely you’d do some looking up on fuel, especially if you’re going to the lengths of spending thousands on an engine. I know it was the first thing I did but hey, at least he knows now.

 

[superkarl]

I’m more baffled by the sub standard intercooler choice. Opting for something ‘easy’ perhaps over something that’s proven

 

[badger5]

I’m more baffled by the sub standard intercooler choice. Opting for something ‘easy’ perhaps over something that’s proven

its not a sub standard fmic of choice, more a fmic that was adequate for his k04 + remap, but not up to it (now we've tested it) for the G25.
I cant say I'm surprised, but its not unexpected from other airtecs and BT's we've seen and built. Customers cool with it. large toyo type b will be being fitted very shortly on the slippery slope that is car tuning -

 

[Stuart B]

Hi Bill, obviously without being financially specific as every package might be slightly different etc

But...
Is this considered as an entry level big turbo, or just being reviewed as it's the latest big turbo released which is suitable for our cars for fast road / occasional track?

How does this compare to your plug-n- play aet380 ? If two people rolled up with a stock s3 / tt and one wanted a aet380 and the other this G25 would there be much of an overlap? E.g. only rods, fueling and valves?
If someone had an aet380 running sweet at the expected upper output and wanted an upgrade would they go to this package or something closer to Tuffty's / Gops' / Goubo's + a few other's mental setups?

More importantly do you see a market for creating a g25-550 S3/TT/Cupra package of the best compatible parts? (Filter, intake, turbo, manifold, downpipe, FMIC) that would be excellent for those like @desertstorm who wanted to go to a big turbo solution instead of a hybrid?

 

[badger5]

Hi Bill, obviously without being financially specific as every package might be slightly different etc

But...
Is this considered as an entry level big turbo, or just being reviewed as it's the latest big turbo released which is suitable for our cars for fast road / occasional track?

How does this compare to your plug-n- play aet380 ? If two people rolled up with a stock s3 / tt and one wanted a aet380 and the other this G25 would there be much of an overlap? E.g. only rods, fueling and valves?
If someone had an aet380 running sweet at the expected upper output and wanted an upgrade would they go to this package or something closer to Tuffty's / Gops' / Goubo's + a few other's mental setups?

More importantly do you see a market for creating a g25-550 S3/TT/Cupra package of the best compatible parts? (Filter, intake, turbo, manifold, downpipe, FMIC) that would be excellent for those like @desertstorm who wanted to go to a big turbo solution instead of a hybrid?

simply visit our existing webhop to see the packages already exist and listed
https://badger5.co.uk/turbo-exhausts/g25-550-garrett-turbo-072ar-vband-std-rotation

 

[badger5]

Hi Bill, obviously without being financially specific as every package might be slightly different etc

But...
Is this considered as an entry level big turbo, or just being reviewed as it's the latest big turbo released which is suitable for our cars for fast road / occasional track?

How does this compare to your plug-n- play aet380 ? If two people rolled up with a stock s3 / tt and one wanted a aet380 and the other this G25 would there be much of an overlap? E.g. only rods, fueling and valves?
If someone had an aet380 running sweet at the expected upper output and wanted an upgrade would they go to this package or something closer to Tuffty's / Gops' / Goubo's + a few other's mental setups?

More importantly do you see a market for creating a g25-550 S3/TT/Cupra package of the best compatible parts? (Filter, intake, turbo, manifold, downpipe, FMIC) that would be excellent for those like @desertstorm who wanted to go to a big turbo solution instead of a hybrid?

If a customer came to us with a fully stage 2'd up car with all supporting mods and wanting 340-360bhp power, then the k04-380 package is the best option.. If same customer wanted 400+bhp it would not be a k04 hybrid i would be suggesting, and the g25-550/660 depending on what they want torque onset wise and ultimate power goals etc etc

 

[Stuart B]

simply visit our existing webhop to see the packages already exist and listed
https://badger5.co.uk/turbo-exhausts/g25-550-garrett-turbo-072ar-vband-std-rotation

That's so cool...I need to befriend an elderly relative.

 

[badger5]

An update on the G25-550
Returned for larger fmic, replacing its 60mm airtec. Retained the std 60mm pipework, just changed out fmic for 600x300x76 wellycooler
logged pressure drops again (none now), added 0.1bar boost and a little timing and 450bhp achieved
logs/data below.
Before pressure Drop (measure from turbo outlet to plenum)

After wellycooler added (measure from turbo outlet to plenum)

Added 0.1bar boost to 1.85bar from 1.75bar

I believe on a "full monty build" like many of our others, with SEM inlet manifold, our cams, water meth, more boost, 63mm pipework we could nudge towards 500bhp from this little critter... From something which spools pretty much like a k04, thats just amazing. This engine is 82.5mm bore, 8.9:1CR, smallport, std cams, std inlet manifold/throttle..

G25 series are pretty impressive things..

 

[Rainbird]

Very impressive. I'd been eyeing up a 660 for mine (eventually - long way off yet!) but the 550 seems to be a seriously impressive piece of kit and is making the decision more difficult!

What sort of EGTs are you seeing on this one, Bill?

 

[badger5]

Very impressive. I'd been eyeing up a 660 for mine (eventually - long way off yet!) but the 550 seems to be a seriously impressive piece of kit and is making the decision more difficult!

What sort of EGTs are you seeing on this one, Bill?

860c on this power run.
measured in manifold collector pre-turbine

 

[Rainbird]

Nice!

 

[woking rob]

Very nice bill, it was me who phoned u the other day, this is the sort of spec I would want

 

[desertstorm]

Seems to have been a small loss of spool between the runs, Suppose that may be down to the ambient being warmer with this nice summer weather we have had. The intake temps do seem to climb during that run from around 22 degrees to nearly 40 degrees and drop almost immediately as soon as the throttle is lifted. Given the increase in ambient the new intercooler looks to be a lot better with a good drop in boost pressure loss across the core.
Be interesting to see where the turbo is on the compressor map, if a speed sensor was on the turbo knowing the speed and boost pressure you would have more of an idea where it was on the compressor map.
I did some rough calculations looking at the compressor maps of the 550 and 660 before I decided which one to go for. Using a simple calculator to work out roughly the lbs/min airflow using VE as 100% another rough guess
http://www.lovehorsepower.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4&Itemid=88
If you plot the boost readings from the run above.
1800 1.15
2000 1.22
2500 1.22
3000 1.44
3500 2.08
3900 2.80
7400 2.80
The plot on the left is a 550 on the right a 660. The red line is the boost figures and RPM above. The blue line is 2 bar boost between 3900 RPM and 7400RPM. This is based on an 1850cc engine. These plots don't take into account the effect of intake pressure losses and exhaust back pressure which affects the pressure ratios. Typically this means the lines will move up the graphs . The 550 is pretty much maxed out at 7500 RPM and 1.8 bar. You can of course go out of the compressor map but the efficiency drops away big time and you have a high pressure very hot air generator.
A G550 won't hold 2 bar of boost to 7400rpm without overspeeding and would be quite inefficient.
If the compressor efficiency is low as well it takes more turbine power to make the same amount of pressure, This means more exhaust back pressure.
I figured that keeping the turbine speed lower and the efficiency up would make for a better top end without having to use WMI.
My build is for a track car so not as concerned with low speed pick up, this is probably very enjoyable and very quick on the road. Another 50 bhp wouldn't make that much difference on the road as you are well over the legal limit in seconds.
The 660 seems to easily manage 2 bar to 7400 rpm and Nicks holds it easily to 8K. Would probably do close to 2.2 bar to 7500 RPM. Better get on and get mine built to see what a 660 looks like with a small port head with standard cams, manifold no WMI etc.

 

[Prawn]

Karl, Tom Jewell on facebook had his mapped yesterday and it's exactly as you say. Stock small port head and stock cams.

he did about 412whp at 25psi.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Seems to have been a small loss of spool between the runs

Thats typically due to the flow restriction backing up flow but increasing airspeed...

See that sort of drop all the time when derestricting like this... mine did the same thing when I went from stock cams to cat cams

<tuffty/>

 

[s3gazz]

Hi guys this looks to be Very interesting. Will follow this set up closely.

 

[superkarl]

Hi guys this looks to be Very interesting. Will follow this set up closely.

Welcome back

 

[vtraudt]

Just reading up on G25 stuff. One thing that crossed my mind when looking at dyno chart numbers: Where is the 'loss factor' coming from in for example 350 HP wheel become 409 BHP (or 16% loss). I used to 22% percent loss on Quattro 1.8T used to calculate BHP from wheel HP/TQ.