Audi S3 (8L) Race-Car Project

Yeah I meant the quattro's are roughly 300kg more than the fwd ok I was I 80kg off if looking to save weight and and cost the a3 is a lighter place to start add the weight of a roll cage and and you still not back up to near a s3 kgs
 
George 8L said:
Hi, Tj.

Do you not think the standard internals will suffice under 300-350bhp? I've read that the pistons are the weakest link with the internals but should be fine if they aren't abused. I will be at uni soon with little resources for major upgrades such as internals.
Click to expand...

Pistons will deal with 400-450hp (subject to methods of trying to achieve this of course)... rods are a lottery and can fail on a std level of tune... valves (exhaust valves in particular) are prone to fail which normally results in catastrophic engine carnage... valve guides wear from as little as 50k miles and can lead to valve failure too..

My advice is budget to build the engine... then worry about getting power out later... old cars, old engines and variable servicing means engines respond very differently to tuning and use... if you plan to keep the car long term and have some thing reliable for track use then build the engine...

<tuffty/>
 
I won't go into too much detail at this stage, but the biggest question here, is are you prepared for the true costs of doing something like this even half properly?

You'll be looking well and truly the other side of £10k as an absolute minimum.

Also, look at what series will allow a 4wd car to enter. Many outlaw 4wd cars totally, and also will not allow 4wd cars converted to 2wd either.
 
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TBH as much as i hate to say it, but if your limited that much to max power to weight ratio I would personally ditch the 4wd weight and go with a lighter livelier fwd option. Just don't feel you will anywhere near gain the beniifit of the extra driven 2 wheels compared to the weight penalty.

I'm now going to crawl back under that rock after saying that about an S3 :whistle2:
 
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hey, lighten up a little.

Sure, the project needs a lot more research, but the enthusiasm is certainly there!

Everyone has to start somewhere, and the more S3's and A3's we see being built as track cars the better IMO.

I know from my own personal findings that they can be very effective, it just takes a fair bit of effort!
 
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Shoomakan said:
300kg is the weight of Haldex, eh? Quick search of the world wide web of lies indicates a FWD A3 1.8T at around 1200kgs, whereas an S3 is about 1420kg.

You're forgetting the independent rear suspension, too... Haldex system in its entirety is 80kg or so IIRC, not more. The 220kg difference is definitely not the "4wd system that adds 300kg to the car".

Anyway, OP... I think 1300kg is reasonable, but you'll be removing most of everything you can. Keep your dash and HVAC (trust me on this. That last 10-15kgs won't be the end of you but you will regret it in summer/winter if you remove). Lightweight seats alone should shave ~30kgs from the car. Check the threads available, plenty of info there on how much things weigh and how much power different recipes will make, along with which coilovers are best for daily use, race use, and a compromise of both. And of course, bushings.
Click to expand...

Usefull info bud!

i did think leaving the dash (for now) would be a doog idea. im not fluent in electrics and i know as soon as i take the dash off it will be like opening a can of worms! what kind of seats would you suggest? they must meet fia and msa regulations... i love the look of bride seats but anything that is cheap and meets regulations would be great. perhaps i could find a second hand set... Bushing is definitely on the cards, the short term goal is weight reduction and race prepping the chassis and suspension components, bushing etc. The series i'm aiming for is 175bhp/tonne so i figured if i do the weight reduction and all necessary race regulatory things, i can then find out power/weight ratio, then go from there with the engine.
 
Prawn said:
hey, lighten up a little.

Sure, the project needs a lot more research, but the enthusiasm is certainly there!

Everyone has to start somewhere, and the more S3's and A3's we see being built as track cars the better IMO.

I know from my own personal findings that they can be very effective, it just takes a fair bit of effort!
Click to expand...

Yeh dude. I'd have seven A3/S3's if i could! And honestly, i dont know why i hardly see any in racing... the only audi i know of is in rallycross, but thats a modern day A1/S1. I'm surprised i dont see more being put to good use, as we all know they are great cars! I've started reading a thread you created a while back. I see you have already encountered and solved alot of problems! Great for me to see how you've done it! There's a hell of a lot to get through though!
 
superkarl said:
There is a weight reduction thread on the TT forum where a guy went to extremes and conveniently documented it all every step of the way. I can't remember the final figure but it was certainly less than 1300kg
Click to expand...

Do you have link Karl? I have gotten my TT down to sub 1100 kg. Always like to see what others are doing for inspiration.
 
StaceyS3 said:
TBH as much as i hate to say it, but if your limited that much to max power to weight ratio I would personally ditch the 4wd weight and go with a lighter livelier fwd option. Just don't feel you will anywhere near gain the beniifit of the extra driven 2 wheels compared to the weight penalty.

I'm now going to crawl back under that rock after saying that about an S3 :whistle2:
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying bud, this kinda ties in with the decision of turning a really good condition s3 to race car. Kinda like killing a unicorn. Perhaps if more money comes my way and i'm able to buy another a3 on the cheap, it may end up being a better learning curve as i'm sure ill come across a lot more challenges along the way. I am still in early stages of planning so actual work on the car may commence in a few months once i've gotten the go ahead from my course head, or it may take until year 2 to start work. There are other things related to the project i need to address first.
 
George 8L said:
Does that take into account weight reduction? the s3 is 1420kg off the assembly line, plus me 70kg = 1490kg
Click to expand...
You lucky *******...

<tuffty/> said:
Eat less pies... thats what @Prawn did...
Click to expand...
Apologies for my detriment to this effort :)

George 8L said:
I've started reading a thread you created a while back.
Click to expand...
It is 'the' thread for what you are hoping to achieve :)

As others have hinted at before; look into getting a cheap FWD A3. As @Prawn has successfully demonstrated, they can be very quick on track (not going into if it is or isn't quicker than an S3, plenty of discussions about this already). Also, your S3 looks too good to end up stripped ;)

Fully stock (interior intact etc.) FWD A3 plus driver and fluids should be just shy of 1300 kilo's. Stripping the interior, changing the seats, adding a rollcage and other race trimmings (fire extinguisher required for your class?) should get you down to around 1200kg based on @Prawn's thread.

At 175bhp/metric ton, you're looking at 210bhp max. Stage 2 tune on a K03S turbo will probably get you close to this number, as a start. Bolting this into a used car, you'll probably end up breaking things. Budget for this accordingly. Alternatively, you can pre-emptively replace and rebuild parts as budget allows.

Expect to spend most time and money on the suspension; plenty of good threads (Prawn's included) to read up about this topic.

Good luck with the project, looking forward to following your progress :)
 
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You need to remember that these power:weight figures are quite different to how we usually quote them.

They're power at the wheels, and total weight including driver, kit, and fuel.
 
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Erikn89nl said:
You lucky *******...


Apologies for my detriment to this effort :)


It is 'the' thread for what you are hoping to achieve :)

As others have hinted at before; look into getting a cheap FWD A3. As @Prawn has successfully demonstrated, they can be very quick on track (not going into if it is or isn't quicker than an S3, plenty of discussions about this already). Also, your S3 looks too good to end up stripped ;)

Fully stock (interior intact etc.) FWD A3 plus driver and fluids should be just shy of 1300 kilo's. Stripping the interior, changing the seats, adding a rollcage and other race trimmings (fire extinguisher required for your class?) should get you down to around 1200kg based on @Prawn's thread.

At 175bhp/metric ton, you're looking at 210bhp max. Stage 2 tune on a K03S turbo will probably get you close to this number, as a start. Bolting this into a used car, you'll probably end up breaking things. Budget for this accordingly. Alternatively, you can pre-emptively replace and rebuild parts as budget allows.

Expect to spend most time and money on the suspension; plenty of good threads (Prawn's included) to read up about this topic.

Good luck with the project, looking forward to following your progress :)
Click to expand...

Yeah i hear you buddy, it may be a case of holding off for a while until i can muster the money for an a3 to use for the build. I'm getting a lot of negativity with stripping the s3 and i totally understand it, and to be honest it has made me question that which is great.

It's quite an annoying situation as i actually sold my old a3 to my dad not too long ago which would have been perfect! Loved that car too! hence why i got the s3 :p

Thanks for the thread. I've got a hell of a lot of reading to do!

And ill be doing this project over the coarse of three years so i will do my best to keep you all updated! I may go quiet from time to time though as i have other things to focus on from time to time.... Along with cash being limited with the project.
 
Hi, Snowy.

I'm sure there is a section i read, either in the MSVT handbook or elsewhere.... i've just spent the last 20 mins trying to find such info, with little luck. I had spoken to chap on the phone who works on the MSVT comittee i beleive and i was assured i would be able to enter the car into class B or C. I shall do some more reading to try i figure this out.

There is another series called 'CSCC Modern Classics' which definitely cater for my car.

http://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/sites/default/files/2016 Modern Classics Regulations_0.pdf

Class C - All 4WD forced induction cars up to 2500cc
 
George 8L said:
Hi, Snowy.

I'm sure there is a section i read, either in the MSVT handbook or elsewhere.... i've just spent the last 20 mins trying to find such info, with little luck. I had spoken to chap on the phone who works on the MSVT comittee i beleive and i was assured i would be able to enter the car into class B or C. I shall do some more reading to try i figure this out.

There is another series called 'CSCC Modern Classics' which definitely cater for my car.

http://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/sites/default/files/2016 Modern Classics Regulations_0.pdf

Class C - All 4WD forced induction cars up to 2500cc
Click to expand...

Though after some thought and public opinion, 4wd could potentially not be an issue. Depending on what coarse i take - A3 fwd or S3 4wd
 
superkarl said:
It's taken me ages to find this:

http://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=458833
Click to expand...

Ah OK, this one!

The car was totalled and followed his progress throughout. I have done some exetensive weight modifications to my roadster as well. So far I'm around 1,100 Kg with the ultimate goal of being in 1,000 kg range. Working on a composite trunk as we speak, still have an aluminium propeller shaft to do, lexan windshield, and a few other knickknacks.

image_44.jpeg
 
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Madmax199 said:
Ah OK, this one!

The car was totalled and followed his progress throughout. I have done some exetensive weight modifications to my roadster as well. So far I'm around 1,100 Kg with the ultimate goal of being in 1,000 kg range. Working on a composite trunk as we speak, still have an aluminium propeller shaft to do, lexan windshield, and a few other knickknacks.

image_44.jpeg
Click to expand...

Tis quite the machine... Out of interest, would a hard top not have been better off to start with, A) for chassis rigidity, and B) for weight saving?

I'd have thought the soft top would heave some heavy chassis strengthening underneath, no?
 
VAG-Slag said:
Tis quite the machine... Out of interest, would a hard top not have been better off to start with, A) for chassis rigidity, and B) for weight saving?

I'd have thought the soft top would heave some heavy chassis strengthening underneath, no?
Click to expand...

The MK1 TT's case is a bit unique. When Audi decided to make the roadster, they didn't want to follow the old formula of chopping a coupe up and adding a few reinforcements. Maybe as an engineering statement, but they went out of their way to design the frame (especially the rear) from the ground up. Their goal was to have a convertible with similar rigidity figures as the coupe versions. The numbers published in both coupe and roadster design studies show that they succeeded in their statement.

It indeed came at a price, the roadsters are heavier than the coupes in standard form when equally loaded. Having brought mine down to about 1,100 Kg, I don't think it matters at that point. I have not seen many full frame coupes that light. There is a guy in South Africa, and we have a friendly war for the title of the lightest non-tubular frame TT (I think he's ahead of me lately after doing composite doors, wings, quarter panels, and hatch -- but I'll soon catch up). When you can get that light with a car capable of 400 HP at the wheels at high boost mode, it's not that big of a deal. The thrill of flying down the track in an open top can't be beat.

Marius's TT in South Africa
image.png


My roadster
image_48.jpeg
 
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Prawn said:
......
You'll be looking well and truly the other side of £10k as an absolute minimum.
.....
Click to expand...
I was thinking about this the other day and it so easily escalates if you are getting proper stuff.

1.2K Suspension
1K Brakes
800 Exhaust
4K Engine and Turbo
1K Wheels and tyres
1K General Maintenance
 
My advice is buy a "ready made". There will be plenty of people out there (if you look) that will have shovelled tens of thousands of their hard earned creds into what is essentially - a money pit.
Most that do this sell their "beloved" projects for pittance once they stand back in the cold light of day and think "what was I thinking" ? "I owe the bank £175 grand for a car that I should never have touched - and meanwhile teenagers with two grand motorcycles **** all over me everywhere I go and make me feel like a clown sitting inside a very loud cutlery set that's stuck in very thick mud" ....
Restore an old motorcycle, invest in property, re vamp a bicycle - stay away from this one buddy, both you and your taste will change in the next few years ...

Sent from my Vodafone Smart ultra 6 using Tapatalk
 
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4b259bde484df0835a2dbe47103fab80.jpg

Is this colour original? Or did you make it? It's very nice :)
 
Last edited:
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Costellon said:
My advice is buy a "ready made". There will be plenty of people out there (if you look) that will have shovelled tens of thousands of their hard earned creds into what is essentially - a money pit.
Most that do this sell their "beloved" projects for pittance once they stand back in the cold light of day and think "what was I thinking" ? "I owe the bank £175 grand for a car that I should never have touched - and meanwhile teenagers with two grand motorcycles **** all over me everywhere I go and make me feel like a clown sitting inside a very loud cutlery set that's stuck in very thick mud" ....
Restore an old motorcycle, invest in property, re vamp a bicycle - stay away from this one buddy, both you and your taste will change in the next few years ...

Sent from my Vodafone Smart ultra 6 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


or 40+year old with 1 grand motor cycles costing £49 a year insurance
 
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George 8L said:
Hi, Snowy.

I'm sure there is a section i read, either in the MSVT handbook or elsewhere.... i've just spent the last 20 mins trying to find such info, with little luck. I had spoken to chap on the phone who works on the MSVT comittee i beleive and i was assured i would be able to enter the car into class B or C. I shall do some more reading to try i figure this out.

There is another series called 'CSCC Modern Classics' which definitely cater for my car.

http://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/sites/default/files/2016 Modern Classics Regulations_0.pdf

Class C - All 4WD forced induction cars up to 2500cc
Click to expand...

Nice looking series, good mix of cars

Looks very hard fought, and those rules are very open
Can easily imagine you'll be up against folks with big budgets and deep pockets

£25K starting budget, imho
 
Hey, guys!! Good news has arrived. Also sorry for going quiet. i've just moved in to my uni halls and have settled in well! I have spoken to the head of my course and have been informed that i am more than welcome to use my project car and incorporate it into my course :p i'ts also fine for me to store the car up here, sadly outside, but i shall be buying a decent cover for her. I am also hoping that i may be able to use some of my grant money's to get a cheap s3/a3 in the next few months. Therefore i may not have to destroy the unicorn.
 
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Roadtrain said:
4b259bde484df0835a2dbe47103fab80.jpg

Is this colour original? Or did you make it? It's very nice :)
Click to expand...

I believe so bud. I initially thought that the color was 'dolphin grey' but as someone said earlier in the thread it is not. I am pretty sure its an original color. I'm glad you like it :)
 
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snowy said:
Nice looking series, good mix of cars

Looks very hard fought, and those rules are very open
Can easily imagine you'll be up against folks with big budgets and deep pockets

£25K starting budget, imho
Click to expand...

Yeh, my friends boss runs his TVR Tuscan in the series. Mint looking car! Honestly mate, at this stage, the goal is build the car on as cheap a budget as possible, incorporate it into my course and just take part in the series. Positioning right now is irrelevant :) .... I have had thought, to keep costs down, of approaching a professional driving and offer them the chance to drive the car for free. I myself would have to obtain a racing license etc so this way, i save money and the car has someone notable behind the wheel that may well be able to get it up there in the field.
 
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George 8L said:
I believe so bud. I initially thought that the color was 'dolphin grey' but as someone said earlier in the thread it is not. I am pretty sure its an original color. I'm glad you like it :)
Click to expand...

Aviation Grey is an original Audi colour, but I'm pretty sure it was never available on the S3... Only mk1 (8N) TT, and even then it's still ****** rare!

Also, the bottom grill surround isn't painted from factory... So it's deffo been sprayed
 
VAG-Slag said:
Aviation Grey is an original Audi colour, but I'm pretty sure it was never available on the S3... Only mk1 (8N) TT, and even then it's still ****** rare!

Also, the bottom grill surround isn't painted from factory... So it's deffo been sprayed
Click to expand...

Grilles are not sprayed mate i can assure you, its definitely standard color. So what ever color it is i guess will remain a mystery :/
 
I think VAG-Slag is talking about the surround of the grill not the grill itself. but my door blades have been sprayed at some point too.

this link shows the standard colours - I think the boot has the paint code written in it too.

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/a3-s3-colours-again-yawn-i-was-bored-ok.13303/

I am coloured blind especially for green / grey, orange / red, green / brown / red, purple / blue
but is this the same colour?

Audi s3 8l bam 18 rperformance 260 23 s3 mazowieckie warszawa 137805737


actually I can see my picture is certainly grey and yours looks like green to me.
 
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