<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Not at the moment... been busy at the day job and with customer cars/Bill's race car so not had time/ramps space to get anything sorted...

Should be getting the EGT probe boss sorted in the next week or so but I am gonna wait until after Santa Pod now before doing anything else as the car needs to be off the road for a little while as I do the work...

Had it on the ramp the other day though to scope out what needs to be done and decided that when I do the work to get the supersize DV fitted I may as well get the relevant pipework changed over to 60mm too... this includes looking at using 60mm outlets on the FMIC...

Bill is getting his dyno soon so once all this work is done I hope that I can finally baseline the power this bunch of mods has achieved and then look at a largeport head and mods to the intake system including a larger MAF body...

<tuffty/>
 

Dani_B19

Audi-sports own special child.
Cant wait to see how the 60mm pipework goes for the fmic :).
 

finesse

Registered User
tuffy, Iv heard of MRC as RS4 specialists and Unit20 as RS6 specialists.

As you guys S3 specialists that people can travel to for work?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
tuffy, Iv heard of MRC as RS4 specialists and Unit20 as RS6 specialists.

As you guys S3 specialists that people can travel to for work?

Not me personally but if you want to get in touch with Bill to discuss your requirements then by all means do so... I just help Bill out at the weekends and the occasional evening...

Bill does a lot of business on SEAT Cupra net with Ibiza's and Leon's... all have 1.8t 20v engines so the experience and capabilities aren't limited to S3's... I know a little about about S3's as I have one and I tinker with it...

I have learnt a hell of a lot from Bill since I have known him and its with his guidance that I have managed to get this far on my own car...

He gets business from all over as he is well known for his quality work. Speedy Steve off this very forum has his S3 in at the minute for the hybrid turbo that is the subject of the sticky in this very forum..

<tuffty/>
 

Speedy Steve

Registered User
you mean i bought all this 50mm hose to copy your intercooler set up and know your changing it lol. Im surprised you havent done it before know.
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
you mean i bought all this 50mm hose to copy your intercooler set up and know your changing it lol. Im surprised you havent done it before know.


Still think its ok for the sort of air a K04 (hybrid or otherwise) is capable of and for ease of fitment its perfect... 60mm out of the FIMC is still theoretical... O/D of the 51mm silicon 45 degree bend is around the 60mm mark give or take so in theory if I replicate that bit in 60mm alloy tubing then it 'should' fit... however due to the tightness of it all and that silicon has give etc I am unsure how much trimming of the bumper will be needed (there will have to be some of course).

There is also the issue of strength... the silicon tube coming off the cooler will have give... this will prevent vibrations and movement in the bumper being transmitted to the welds of the pipework... having a big alloy 'lever' instead presents problems... I will look at gusseting the pipe to the cooler to add strength but will have to see what happens... its a risk I am happy to take but one I doubt that would be suitable for a production item such as AH Fabs cooler or Forges cooler...

If I did do mine again retianing the 51mm outlets I would perhaps look to minimise the 51mm run by trying to find and use a 51mm to 60mm elbow straight out the cooler and use 60mm pipe sooner rather than the 51mm alloy elbow... the AH Fabs cooler is not as tall as the Forge one so I have been able (with mods) to refit my horns back in the original place in front of the radiator leaving me lots of room either side...

I will post pics of this when I get around to sorting the 60mm pipework out as its all part of that..

<tuffty/>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Righty... not much to report as yet, just waiting on the EGT probe boss to be made and hopefully that should close the door on the EGT issue once and for all...

Good to meet a few of you guys over the weekend at Santa Pod, my 'pod face' is settling down now so all is good... anyhoo.... while I was there I picked up the soon to be latest edition to the mods....

20100413_CRW_4043.jpg


20100413_CRW_4044.jpg


20100413_CRW_4045.jpg


Large port head :icon_thumright:

I have started saving my pennies for a set of Supertech valves and looking at a set of Cat Cams springs and retainers too...

Will try and get a power run in prior to fitting the large port to see what difference it makes... Bill is getting his dyno soon so should make things a bit easier to get sorted...

I am really going to try and get it all done for GTI Inters... be nice to be running the engine at its full potential for then...

Another job I have lined up is the installation of all my stereo kit including the Andy Mac Stealth Sub which I bought over a year ago and still not fitted it!!! I have now ordered some speaker adaptors for my Focals and now my Golf is on the road again and the good weather appears to be here I can start spending some time after work getting it all fitted..

<tuffty/>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Just for a little clarification (a favourite word of mine currently) here is a pic I found of a small port and large port inlet manifold side by side...

largeportvssmallport.jpg


I am going to be using a small port inlet manifold as there isn't a large port version that has the throttle body the same side as the S3 so I will be using a phenolic transition insulator to smooth out the step.

<tuffty/>
 

aragorn

"Stick a V8 in it!"
Staff member
Moderator
VCDS Map User
Mate looking at those inlets, the runners look like a major restriction. Seems a bit of a waste fitting the big port head, then fitting it with that manifold, your not acutally removing the bottleneck?

Can't you reroute the pipework to accomodate an AGU or similar manifold?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Plenum is smaller on an A3 style inlet mani sadly... I suspect I will end up going to a SEM at some point in the future (when the pound gets a bit stronger overseas) but it will do for now... always something to do :)

Too much work to reroute at this stage... I don't think its going to make it any worse than it is but I need to build a head up with decent valves sooner rather than later so may as well do it to a large port and sort the rest out later....

<tuffty
 

mk1chopper

Missing the S3
Thought you wernt going to bother with a cam? How much would it cost to have the chop job you were talking abut done, i.e. cutting off the largeport inlet manifold and welding to the existing. Could you machine out the existing small port manifold to match up to the large port head?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Thought you wernt going to bother with a cam? How much would it cost to have the chop job you were talking abut done, i.e. cutting off the largeport inlet manifold and welding to the existing. Could you machine out the existing small port manifold to match up to the large port head?

Cat Cams make a spring set for the 20v engine thats a cheaper alternative to the Supertech ones... not getting cams :)

At this point I am not that bothered that I have a small port mani on a large port head, the whole point of the build was to utilise as much of the OEM stuff as possible, I will no doubt get a different inlet mani and if when I do I would expect it will be a SEM as this looks more like OEM than any of the fabricated ones available.

I intend to do power runs in between mods (subject to Bill allowing me time on his dyno when he gets it) to establish the real world differences these mods make... its easy to throw a chunk of cash at a project like this but its going to have taken me at least a year to get close to finishing the tuning side of the build as cash is a factor here... I am not prepared to spend $900 on a SEM mani and 80mm TB (especially at todays exchange rates) to gain maybe 20 (odd) bhp over the 400bhp I should be able to achieve once the heads on and the rest of the niggles are ironed out... much beyond the mods I have done you are hitting the area of diminishing returns...

Did a search has Bill mentioned this to you?

http://www.clubgti.com/FORUM/showthread.php?t=213211

Not yet mate but I am sure he will :)

I'll have a look into it myself too..

<tuffty/>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
What are you expecting to rev this to?

Current redline is set at 7.8k and I have more or less hit this in every gear bar 6th... yet... :eyebrows:

I got a peak of 383bhp @ 6684rpm so with the increased flow capability and traditionally later spool on bigger turbos then 7.8k is a sensible rev limit. The valves and springs are needed for reliability at these rev limits really as std ones aren't up to the job else I would keep it as is...

<tuffty/>
 

tompearson

It's all in bits
7.8K on standard kit at the moment! Crikey. Do you plan to get new guides fitted as well when you get the head built?

Ross Machine do a large port inlet mani with configurable throttle body position (and size) - it is on offer at the moment as well. Not particularly OEM looking though.
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
7.8K on standard kit at the moment! Crikey. Do you plan to get new guides fitted as well when you get the head built?
lol... yeah although I don't take it anywhere near that too often.... the plan is to get the head cleaned, light skim, new guides, recut valve seats etc...

I will be using the VVT, followers and cams from my current AMK head along with Cat Cam springs/retainers and Supertech valves.

Ross Machine do a large port inlet mani with configurable throttle body position (and size) - it is on offer at the moment as well. Not particularly OEM looking though.[/QUOTE]

$699 is still £450 odd plus delivery/tax/whatever... and like you say its not very OEM looking... as and when I am ready I will just go for the SEM tbh... flows more and works...

<tuffty/>
 

Lee Goodall

Registered User
Funny how all of our project deadlines moved from GTI Spring Fest to GTI Inters lol.. hopefully we'll stick to it!! :icon_thumright:
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Funny how all of our project deadlines moved from GTI Spring Fest to GTI Inters lol.. hopefully we'll stick to it!! :icon_thumright:

My original deadline was Audi Drivers last year!!... LOL

<tuffty/>
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
For those that maybe interested, I have some figures taken from this PDF (http://www.cylinderheadtech.com/flownumbers.pdf) of flow figures for the small port vs large port 20v heads..

AUDI 1.8T 20V SMALL PORT Stock valve size
Stock:
INT. 167cfm @ .380" valve lift
EXH. 162cfm @ .380" valve lift

Ported: (potential flow)
INT. 225cfm @ .380" valve lift
EXH. 191cfm @ .380" valve lift

AUDI 1.8T 20V LARGE PORT Stock valve size
Stock:
INT. 200cfm @ .380" valve lift
EXH. 184cfm @ .380" valve lift

Ported:
INT. 243cfm @ .380" valve lift
EXH. 212cfm @ .380" valve lift

I am not looking to get my large port head 'ported' but you can see the difference in flow even as standard... should be interesting

<tuffty/>
 

Welly

335D Driver :-)
Wow, that is a BIG difference in flow rates between the two at stock level.
 

mk1chopper

Missing the S3
As your not going to get you large head ported, how to the costs compare between buying a large port head and having the existing small head ported and polished which provides better flow figures over the standard large head?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Andrew @ ALD was on about £500 IIRC to do any ones like his, the guy Bill uses charges that or a bit more... you can get a LP head on the bay for a couple of hundred quid or less if you are lucky so makes for a cheap upgrade providing you have a turbo capable of providing the flow for it of course although there does appear to be gains on a K04 as Welly has shown... every little helps... at the right money of course...

<tuffty/>
 

Speedy Steve

Registered User
balls should have a bid on that oh well
 

Speedy Steve

Registered User
Yeah well there will always be a chance to put a large port on if i go for a JBS manifold
 

Andrew@A.L.D

May add NOS to 600+bhp S3.
I also will be swapping to a ported big port but its not worth it with the turbo i'm running now

Anyway i managed to beat them figures you have posted tuffty with my ported small port

I got 236 cfms at 380 lift on the inlet and 198 cfms on the exhaust at the same test pressure 25in

I did test the head at different test pressures of 10 in, 15 in, 20 in, 25 in and 28 in as 28 in seams to be a common pressure done by most head tuners
 
Last edited:

finesse

Registered User
tuffy, slightly off topic

A good member of the forum has offer to scan my motor. We not sure how to take logs as you suggested. I need to find out whats going on with my MAF and boost leak

Block 115
table 32,30


Engine blocks
001 - on idle and cruising throttle, full throttle
002
003
006
031
032

engine electronics 08
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Try this for a guide...
http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds/tour/logging.html

Log blocks 002 (airflow), 031 (fuelling), and 115 (boost request vs actual)

More info on blocks for the engine group here...
http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/

Third gear from 2000rpm to as close as you can legally get to redline.... make sure engine is fully warm (90 degrees)

Check block 032 after logging and while the engine is still idling, this doesn't need to be logged but note the 2 values

This is assuming your car has a wideband lambda and MAP sensor of course

<tuffty/>
 

finesse

Registered User
Try this for a guide...
http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds/tour/logging.html

Log blocks 002 (airflow), 031 (fuelling), and 115 (boost request vs actual)

More info on blocks for the engine group here...
http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/

Third gear from 2000rpm to as close as you can legally get to redline.... make sure engine is fully warm (90 degrees)

Check block 032 after logging and while the engine is still idling, this doesn't need to be logged but note the 2 values

This is assuming your car has a wideband lambda and MAP sensor of course

<tuffty/>

Ok going to get it done now,

Do all the blocks need to be logged in three stages? Idle cruise and full throttle?

Trying to check MAF and boost health as well as leaks.

Thanks
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Ok going to get it done now,

Do all the blocks need to be logged in three stages? Idle cruise and full throttle?

Trying to check MAF and boost health as well as leaks.

Thanks

Nope... set all 3 running in measuring blocks and log... engine temp at 90 degrees, third gear from 2000rpm to as legally close to redline as you can get...

Need all 3 together as you need to compare what boost/fuelling/airflow is all doing at the same time as one can affect the other..

<tuffty/>
 

finesse

Registered User
Nope... set all 3 running in measuring blocks and log... engine temp at 90 degrees, third gear from 2000rpm to as legally close to redline as you can get...

Need all 3 together as you need to compare what boost/fuelling/airflow is all doing at the same time as one can affect the other..

<tuffty/>


Thanks Tuffty, messed up the log taking, as I posted in that thread.

ffs sake, didn't see this post before I went. Had no idea you could log three at a time.

Next time, I'll log [FONT=&quot]002, 031 and 115 [/FONT]togethere&#9830;

Any other combinations that could demonstrate the general health of the car to an expert like yourself?
 

<tuffty/>

Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
Staff member
Moderator
Check block 032 after the run and while the engine is idling (I.E. don't turn it off)... this will give you the adaption values for the ECU which can be a good indication for certain problems such as air leaks etc... post that lot up then we can take it from there...

<tuffty/>
 
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