Quattro

[Odinn]

As you all know Audi are loaning me a car whilst i wait for mine provisional build week 14 .
Anyway im getting a 1.8 Tfsi quattro as a loan car.
My question is simple is there anything to look out for when driving a quattro, any noticeable differences or anything to be aware of, all my previous Audis have all been standard non quattro cars so have no idea if the car would drive differently.

 

[veeeight]

Technically, you're getting a Haldex car, so it's not "proper" quattro

But nevertheless, it will give you traction, and less wheelspin in this weather (but not necessarily more grip).

Just drive how you would normally as if you are in a front wheel drive car, no extra special precautions needed.


More info re Haldex & quattro:
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/thread...-on-the-8v-chassis.198794/page-2#post-2286712


.

 

[thedooker]

Bearing in mind it is front wheel drive for about 95% of the time you don't meed to change your driving. Only real plus point is that you can put your foot to the floor coming out of roundabouts

 

[Odinn]

As always a wealth of knowledge i thank you.

 

[steeve]

As its a loan car I suggest you





























DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT........................................

No really just drive it how you would normally.. By the way I'm sure it will have a 'Quattro' badge on it some where.

 

[A3_Rider]

The heavy steering will be a pleasant surprise, well it's heavy compared to FWD.

Just don't forget it's not a magic trick so becareful how you drive.

 

[steeve]

No need to be any more careful than you are already. Some say you will be considerably safer..............

 

[Odinn]

Great thanks.

 

[veeeight]

quattro

as a trademark

Is always with a small "q".

 

[The Challinor]

I knew the not a proper quattro comment was coming, I died a little inside when I read it @veeeight

 

[Daz Auto]

Just remember that 4WD is a performance feature and NOT a safety feature... as some of the marketing hints at.

Quattro adds over 100kg (mostly in the rear transmission) to the weight of the car. Some people like the way this feels. It will probably make the car feel more solid than the 2WD versions.

 

[Daz Auto]

quattro

as a trademark

Is always with a small "q".

You do know that this website automatically corrects quattro to Quattro?

 

[dts439]

You should feel a difference when pulling away at wet junctions. That and a slightly more planted feel on motorways etc. That was my main impression when I first drove one (an A6 1.8T long term loan car 10 yrs ago). Stuck with it ever since.

Interested to hear what you think of it

 

[The Challinor]

I love quattro and I'd never look elsewhere.

 

[Flibble]

Driving a quattro is easy:

Push the right hand pedal until it hits the mat.
When the rev counter reaches the red gear change indicator, change to the next gear.

 

[veeeight]

I knew the not a proper quattro comment was coming, I died a little inside when I read it @veeeight

I know you hate that. Sorry.

I'll give you one quick example of why it's not "proper" quattro or "proper" full time AWD.

When you touch the brake pedal, the Haldex automatically disengages, and you are back to being a front wheel drive car, you lose all drive from the rear wheels, any engine braking is not transmitted through the rear anymore (useful in many situations, eg: descending snowy hills where your gearing isn't low enough). A "proper" AWD centre diff equipped car would not have this issue.

There are also many more examples where Haldex doesn't cut the mustard (the lack of centre diff changes the way the car handles), and in handling terms, AWD vs RWD is an even more complex subject.

This "feeling planted on motorways" thing is debatable with Haldex, as in those situations the Haldex is normally disengaged, and the car is a Front Wheel Drive car (not so with "proper" quattro).


However, as a traction aid (getting off the line), Haldex is a brilliant cost effective solution for the A3.

But you won't defy the laws of physics, so whilst you'll have more traction getting off the line, you won't necessarily have any more grip (around the corners), so leave ESP switched on (or in Sport if you must) in this weather when driving on the public roads.

If you're having trouble getting out of a snowy car park, and the traction control keeps cutting in, then this is one of those rare situations where it would be beneficial to turn ESP fully off to enable forward motion and momentum to unstick you from that local difficulty.

 

[Mike071288]

So what cars in Audi's current line up have proper Quattro?

 

[veeeight]

Every model has centre-diff "proper" quattro, except A3, TT (Haldex) and R8 (Viscous Coupling).


As an aside - the (insert name of car here) R sold in the USA gets a "proper" lever handbrake. This, coupled with the Haldex, make for a brilliant combination, similar to the WRC cars. When you pull on the handbrake, the Haldex dis-engages, leaving the car in FWD, enabling you to lock up just the rear wheels on the handbrake - then when you release the handbrake and power out with full throttle - you get full AWD for max traction. A stunning and brilliant execution.

 

[the_cueball]

So what cars in Audi's current line up have proper Quattro?

"proper" quattro is for the cars with longitudinal engine (front to rear) like the A4, A6, A8.

haldex is for transverse engines in, usually smaller cars, like the A3, Q3, TT.

although I do love winding people up about not having the proper quattro, it's a really good system and I'm not quite sure why some people take the bait...

haldex is a good Swedish company and supply a lot of their technology to car makers inc Volvo, SAAB, Land Rover, Ford, as well as the Audi group inc Bugatti and Lamborghini...

at the end of the day, I've always just thought of "proper" quattro as a proactive system, and haldex as a reactive one.

both have pluses and minuses going for them.

 

[J4MMYz]

As its a loan car I suggest you





























DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT........................................

No really just drive it how you would normally.. By the way I'm sure it will have a 'Quattro' badge on it some where.

Oh yeah, loan car's are the fastest things ever because they aren't your cars!

 

[Martin L]

at the end of the day, I've always just thought of "proper" quattro as a proactive system, and haldex as a reactive one.

I think now with the clutch pump already primed for literally instance engagement the newer generation (forth up I think) haldex are very clever as it's all about throttle position, steering angle, pitch and yaw of the car.
4WD to be at it's best has to be reactive. It should react to all the driver inputs and then also to the speed, direction and forces on the car, only then can the computers calculate the "optimum" drive for each wheel to give it the desired "balance".

 

[The Challinor]

Lets not forget Haldex is a very good 4wd system that uses the name quattro

 

[h5djr]

My previous car was a A3 2.0TDI-170 front -wheel drive. My current car is an A3 2.0TDI-184 quattro and the cornering ability is far superior to the 170 and it feels much more stable in all situations, especially on damp and wet roads. I drive on the same country roads in my current quattro as I did in my 170 and in a lot of cases just for the fun of driving and I really notice the difference.

 

[veeeight]

I think now with the clutch pump already primed for literally instance engagement the newer generation (forth up I think)

This used to be the case with Gen 4. I loved my Gen 4. Now with Gen 5, they have done away with the accumulator, so no more pre stored pre primed system. In theory it's marginally slower now, there's a lot of unhappy Swedes with their Volvos XCnn with Gen 5 Haldex.

 

[Daz Auto]

By

... the cornering ability is far superior

Everything I have read says that haldex is normally front wheel drive. What you are describing - it sounds like haldex may not only just be active when traction is needed, but it may also be active while cornering. Does anyone know if there is a front/rear bias during cornering with haldex?

 

[veeeight]

Haldex is not capable of doing torque bias ratios like Torsen.

There will be different dynamic torque forces at each wheel anyway, due to loading etc.


I suspect what Dave is experiencing, is the more secure feeling during cornering of the 8V chassis, over the 8P chassis.

Haldex can be locked during cornering (from driver inputs, or ESP off override), but normally this is to the detriment of handling - there is no centre diff, the rear wheels are being driven at the same speed as the front wheels, which is not a good thing to happen going around a corner. This is why differentials exist in the first place, to cope with the differences when going around a corner, otherwise you get transmission wind-up.

The rear is being "forced" to effectively take a longer line than what it normally would (it is "forced" to rotate at the same speed as the fronts). There is more explanation of this in the other Haldex & quattro FAQ threads.

 

[veeeight]

This is what happens going around a corner.


The rear wheels of a car take a shorter path naturally (this is why you don't hug the kerb when turning left out of UK junctions - those alloys !).

If you switch off the ESP in a S3, you're engaging Haldex, or if you provide enough driver input for the Haldex ECU to engage, you are locking up the rear wheels to turn at the same revolutions as the front wheels. So - you are effectively asking the rear wheels to "step out" and follow a longer path.

This is why many people say they feel the "rear wheels kick in" or feel the "rear wheels driving" when Haldex engages - the rear of the car is trying to take a longer path that it isn't natural to it! (leads to tyre scrub, transmission windup).

So, by default, unless you switch ESP off, unless you provide enough driver input to the ECU, unless the wheels detect slip etc., it is preferable for Haldex to be "off" or disengaged, to avoid damage to the transmission through wind-up on high mu surfaces. If you're on a loose surface (gravel, snow), it doesn't matter, the wheels will just spin to "un-wind" the transmission.


Cars with a centre-diff ("proper" quattro) do not have this issue - the centre diff allows for the differences in revolutions.

 

[h5djr]

I suspect what Dave is experiencing, is the more secure feeling during cornering of the 8V chassis, over the 8P chassis.

Before I decided which model to buy I drove a 150 and then the 184 quattro on the same day and over exactly the same country roads and the 184 quattro was far better in the corners in particular than the 150. Both were the same trim level with the same size wheels and tyres. In my particular case I would have gone for the quattro anyway as the non-quattro version only comes with a manual gearbox where as the 184 quattro is s-tronic.

I assume the Haldex in the A3 is the latest Generation V version. This is what Borg Warner say about the system...
"The Haldex Generation V is the latest innovation in electro-hydraulic clutch control for ultimate all-wheel
drive performance. The system automatically distributes power between the front and rear wheels for optimum vehicle traction and handling. The latest generation provides cost and weight reduction while maintaining its legendary pre-emptive performance."

 

[Martin L]

Cars with a centre-diff ("proper" quattro) do not have this issue - the centre diff allows for the differences in revolutions.

Surely the haldex will "ride" the clutch to allow slippage to not fully lock the rear transmission....
This is why it states "up to 50%" of power to the rear. 50% is with haldex fully engaged I would think.
I don't think the haldex is so crude where it's either on or off and I'm sure the software would not allow there to be too much transmission wind up to damage something.

 

[veeeight]

Haldex is On or Off. More frequently Off - that's how it gets around any transmission wind up issues.

Plus everytime you touch the brake pedal, it dis-engages, when the vehicle speed reduces to below 5mph (approx) - it disengages (to avoid wind-up when parking in a tarmac car park) - so yes, the software does all these things to protect the Haldex.

No "clutch riding" - it will burn and the fluid will be useless.

There is a 95:5 figure Front:Rear, this is clutch drag in the fluid, not active engagement.

The new Gen V pump is a variable speed pump, the speed to clamping pressure achieved is proportional to how fast the pump spins, hence the variability here. But it will either be off, or at full speed. No in between.

50% figure is the drive. Haldex can only apportion 50% of the drive (not torque) to the rear. So when Haldex is engaged, 50% of the drive is front, 50% of the drive is rear.

If the front of the car is up in the air with the front wheels spinning, then in this unique scenario, close to 100% of the torque can be at the rear wheels.

Everything is explained in the FAQ
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/thread...-on-the-8v-chassis.198794/page-2#post-2286712

 

[veeeight]

Have to say, after being in a non-quattro FWD car all weekend (courtesy car), I was very glad to get back into my Haldex car yesterday in this weather!

How do non quattro/Haldex drivers cope with booting it out of junctions etc

 

[OliJ]

Have to say, after being in a non-quattro FWD car all weekend (courtesy car), I was very glad to get back into my Haldex car yesterday in this weather!

How do non quattro/Haldex drivers cope with booting it out of junctions etc

Just sit there with the fronts spinning I imagine

 

[a3_phil]

Just sit there with the fronts spinning I imagine

You do all realise that the accelerator pedal has more than two settings? (on/off)

As a FWD pauper with a reasonably powerful car for the first time in years I am actually feeling the lack of quattro as 2nd and 3rd will easily trigger ESP in a straight line on a greasy road.

No problem in summer though.

 

[OliJ]

You do all realise that the accelerator pedal has more than two settings? (on/off)

As a FWD pauper with a reasonably powerful car for the first time in years I am actually feeling the lack of quattro as 2nd and 3rd will easily trigger ESP in a straight line on a greasy road.

No problem in summer though.

Well.. He did say booting it. Ive been taking it easy in the ice recently. Its a rather disconcerting feeling when all 4 wheels let go as you slowly drift towards the busy road.

 

[Soulboy]

I went from Haldex in a MK 4 & 5 R32 to 'proper' quattro in a B7 A4 2.0t quattro Special Edition.
I hated the handling in that car, it used to suffer with 'tramlining' something chronic. Constantly needed steering inputs - and it wasn't the tyres.

Got rid very quickly for an 8P S3 and was happy again.

So personally, I just prefer Haldex from my own experiences.

 

[S3Alex]

I've had the pleasure of Haldex,Torsen,and Quaife equipped 4WD systems over the years.

I guess we all develop our favourites,but I have to say that even with the Race controller on mine(I know it's not the latest version Haldex),I still prefer either the "classic" Torsen Quattros,or a car with a set of Quaife LSDs throughout the 4 wheel drivetrain.

I think the Race controller or latest versions of the Haldex system do get a lot closer to the feel of the other systems,but it's not the same,and that area really is down to preferences,as I've got to say that it works works well,and most of the time,the car simply grips and goes,but for those that do think of using LSDs in their Haldex equipped cars,there is a definite tendency for the diff and the TC to fight with each other under difficult or slippery conditions.

Either way,any of these systems are way better than without.

 

[Vertigo1]

My previous car was a A3 2.0TDI-170 front -wheel drive. My current car is an A3 2.0TDI-184 quattro and the cornering ability is far superior to the 170 and it feels much more stable in all situations, especially on damp and wet roads. I drive on the same country roads in my current quattro as I did in my 170 and in a lot of cases just for the fun of driving and I really notice the difference.

Apples and oranges, you're comparing a FWD 8P with an AWD 8V and ignoring all the differences aside from quattro. Totally invalid comparison.

 

[veeeight]

Apples and oranges, you're comparing a FWD 8P with an AWD 8V and ignoring all the differences aside from quattro. Totally invalid comparison.

Steady on chap. He does go on to make a valid comparison in post #28 !

 

[Vertigo1]

Steady on chap. He does go on to make a valid comparison in post #28 !

Fair enough but should edit or remove the original post - comparing the 8P and 8V is completely pointless.

I'd still dispute that there's such a big difference between the 150 FWD and 185 AWD.

Firstly we have no idea what other differences there are - they could each have subtly different suspension rates/setups. Secondly there's a definite psychological effect where people think the car is handling better simply because they know it has quattro. This is why all scientific tests are done 'blind'. Lastly the Haldex quattro system only cuts in when grip is lost at the front so, unless you're literally cornering on the limit of adhesion at every bend, it will make no difference at all.

 

[h5djr]

Apples and oranges, you're comparing a FWD 8P with an AWD 8V and ignoring all the differences aside from quattro. Totally invalid comparison.

Not really. They may be different in model and format, but what I was saying how they felt to me driving over exactly the same roads. I was comparing my existing car to other cars that I was considering purchasing not trying to compare different layouts. I could have easily been testing a Ford Focus against a A3. I also test drove several lower powered (150) 8V models and Golf VIIs over the same roads and the 184 quattro was so much better in all situations than any of the other models. The handling of 150 engined front-wheel drive models felt better but not that much better to my existing 170.

In the end the was no choice to be made. I wanted a 184, because the 150s felt they had quite a bit less power than the 170 I was driving at the time and I wanted s-tronic and the only model available from Audi is the 184 quattro.