Which one to go for??? Hybrid or BT

[Lee172]

As some of you may remember i had an oil related problem in the thread below about a month ago..
http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/116382-oil-pressure-again.html

Since then the car has sat outside my house while i can figure out what to do with it, my plan was to take advantage of the car being off the road and do some tuning at the same time. Once Danes hybrid is finished my car should be going to Bills shortly after to fix the above problem and go hybrid. My friend has a mk4 golf and wants the manifold/turbo and injectors that are on my car at the moment so i was going to get a new hybrid rather than an exchange one.

A new one works out at around £1000 from CR turbos inc vat and carriage. My question is, are there any other turbos around the same price that would benefit me more?

The reason i wanted to go hybrid in the first place was because i already have 3" downpipe and Badger 5 tip so i wanted to use these. Would this be possible with the kit below..

E2 GT2871R 20V 1.8T Turbo Kit - 98-05 Audi A3 - S3 - TT | eBay UK

 

[Welly]

As some of you may remember i had an oil related problem in the thread below about a month ago..
http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/116382-oil-pressure-again.html

Since then the car has sat outside my house while i can figure out what to do with it, my plan was to take advantage of the car being off the road and do some tuning at the same time. Once Danes hybrid is finished my car should be going to Bills shortly after to fix the above problem and go hybrid. My friend has a mk4 golf and wants the manifold/turbo and injectors that are on my car at the moment so i was going to get a new hybrid rather than an exchange one.

A new one works out at around £1000 from CR turbos inc vat and carriage. My question is, are there any other turbos around the same price that would benefit me more?

The reason i wanted to go hybrid in the first place was because i already have 3" downpipe and Badger 5 tip so i wanted to use these. Would this be possible with the kit below..

E2 GT2871R 20V 1.8T Turbo Kit - 98-05 Audi A3 - S3 - TT | eBay UK

3" DP will fit the Eliminator series, B5 TIP won't I don't think.

It depends really on what you are after.

Don't think power, think drivability. The hybrid and a BT are very different beasts and will have massive amounts of difference. Yes, they both produce power, BUT, they deliver it in very different ways.

Example below of Hybrid CR K04 (Non clipped & 2283) vs a PE1820.

This is the difference on exactly the same engine, only difference being the turbo, manifold and associated parts.

As you can see there is a big difference in spool time, and that is what makes it feel VERY different on the road.

 

[Lee172]

Thanks for the input welly. How would the GT2871r compare to the above two, in terms of spool time?

There are too many choices on which turbo to go for! I have about 4k to spend on tuning. The specs of my car so far are;

3" downpipe
Decat
Milltek cat back
Badger 5 TIP
FMIC

What would you guys go for?? From looking at wellys post i would be looking for something in between the hybrid and the pe1820 in terms of spool time (if that were possible)

 

[S3 Andy]

I'd think twice before going down the hybrid route. I had mine done about 8 months ago, i'm happy with it and it's a massive improvement over standard (had the 210bhp without a remap before), but I'm wanting more power now - exactly as I was told at the time but have a turbo that doesnt have much more to give! My only realistic options now are the jbs mani if it ever gets made and WMI - which I couldn't be ****ed having to keep topped up... I'm not convinced either will make a huge difference on the road.

I'd love to go BT now, but just cant bring myself to spend the money pulling parts off the car that cost a hell of a lot to put on only 8 months ago + paying another £500 on mapping seams crazy.

I think a hybrid will cost you atleast 80% of what a BT costs by the time you're finished - even closer if you end up doing the mani + WMI. You will want more power a few months after having it done, if you go BT you leave your options open (i think??).

If i was spending my money again I'd either go stage 2 on a standard turbo, standard rods and standard injectors and leave it at that or the full wack and aim for 400+bhp.

Think it was you I bumped into over in Morden a few months back??

 

[s3dave]

Youve got to think a BT is not for eveyone, they are going to be less reliable for a start, fuel..drinking... thats why i have the compromise as its my daily,

 

[aragorn]

Its only going to drink fuel if your driving around with your foot welded to the carpet.

I'm an advocate of going big turbo, although the numbers from the K04 hybrids are pretty impressive which makes it a bit more difficult choice. On the A4 its a no-brainer as theres no hybrid on the market that will take you to or beyond 300hp.

I'm not really sure the talk of lag is a big issue. Sure it comes on boost a bit later, but lets be honest, if you decide to "race" someone, or just head out for a blast, your not going to be driving along at 2500rpm with your foot mashed into the floor waiting for something to happen. Even on a standard K04 you wouldnt do that, you'd drop two gears and get the revs right up to where the power is. If you look at wellys graph, at 3k on the BT its making 75hp and the hybrid is making a smidge more. at 4k where the biggest gap between the two is, the BT is still making 150hp. So while its less, its not as though the BT is completely dead making about 12hp then suddenly hits a Wall-O-Boost at 5k.

In my mind it has to come down to longevity. I'd rather have a bigger turbo like a GT28RS, which might be capable of say 360hp running uncorked, and have the car making a sensible 330-340hp, than fitting a hybrid thats capable of 330 and running it at 330. Plus the manifold options for BT seems to be much better than the original turbo, and the EGT's running a big turbo are quite likely to be lower than the hybrid (even with a decent manifold) which gives the engine an easier life as a whole.

 

[s3dave]

Its going to drink because you will be playing all the time....or should be

 

[Welly]

Its going to drink because you will be playing all the time....or should be

Mine is epically bad on fuel. I can't stay off the loud pedal though. Bill suggested installing a brick to limit throttle.... lol

 

[Dane]

never has a better fitting solution been found!

This is the first car that I have been able to seriously modify, (by 'I' I mean 'get Bill to') and it's a learning curve. To me the power and deliverly from a hybrid is a good road going solution. I will probably want more but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

I think this is another example where using the airflield to put different tuning solutions along side each other will help get a better understanding of the real world differences.

 

[badger5]

I'd think twice before going down the hybrid route. I had mine done about 8 months ago, i'm happy with it and it's a massive improvement over standard (had the 210bhp without a remap before), but I'm wanting more power now - exactly as I was told at the time but have a turbo that doesnt have much more to give! My only realistic options now are the jbs mani if it ever gets made and WMI - which I couldn't be ****ed having to keep topped up... I'm not convinced either will make a huge difference on the road.

I'd love to go BT now, but just cant bring myself to spend the money pulling parts off the car that cost a hell of a lot to put on only 8 months ago + paying another £500 on mapping seams crazy.

I think a hybrid will cost you atleast 80% of what a BT costs by the time you're finished - even closer if you end up doing the mani + WMI. You will want more power a few months after having it done, if you go BT you leave your options open (i think??).

If i was spending my money again I'd either go stage 2 on a standard turbo, standard rods and standard injectors and leave it at that or the full wack and aim for 400+bhp.

Think it was you I bumped into over in Morden a few months back??

WMI does make a difference, especially on k04/hybrid cars - they need and appreciate the additional cooling, and love more timing wmi allows.. As for topping up, I bet you dont find it a chore to top up fuel or washer fluid, WMI is no different.

Drivability and instant k04 urgency but on steroids is what the hybrids deliver.... and they are certainly cheaper than BT.. by some margin.

Other BT's will be a lot slower to get going in their power delivery, which is not to everyones taste... Chasing 400bhp numbers vs on the real road drivability is not to be underestimated.. 4krpm up power delivery vs 3krpm up power delivery is what you are comparing.

 

[badger5]

Its only going to drink fuel if your driving around with your foot welded to the carpet.

I'm an advocate of going big turbo, although the numbers from the K04 hybrids are pretty impressive which makes it a bit more difficult choice. On the A4 its a no-brainer as theres no hybrid on the market that will take you to or beyond 300hp.

I'm not really sure the talk of lag is a big issue. Sure it comes on boost a bit later, but lets be honest, if you decide to "race" someone, or just head out for a blast, your not going to be driving along at 2500rpm with your foot mashed into the floor waiting for something to happen. Even on a standard K04 you wouldnt do that, you'd drop two gears and get the revs right up to where the power is. If you look at wellys graph, at 3k on the BT its making 75hp and the hybrid is making a smidge more. at 4k where the biggest gap between the two is, the BT is still making 150hp. So while its less, its not as though the BT is completely dead making about 12hp then suddenly hits a Wall-O-Boost at 5k.

In my mind it has to come down to longevity. I'd rather have a bigger turbo like a GT28RS, which might be capable of say 360hp running uncorked, and have the car making a sensible 330-340hp, than fitting a hybrid thats capable of 330 and running it at 330. Plus the manifold options for BT seems to be much better than the original turbo, and the EGT's running a big turbo are quite likely to be lower than the hybrid (even with a decent manifold) which gives the engine an easier life as a whole.

for on the road "shove" you need to compare torque delivery more than power

 

[Lee172]

Thanks for eveyones inputs. I think im steering more towards a garrett at the moment, the hybrid seems to be a very good all rounder but i know what im like, ill want more power 6 months down the line which would mean doing this all over again (Im already in the missus bad books) . I have been reading up on the gt2871r, this turbo seems to be at full boost by 3800 (on the dynos i have seen) which would be about what im looking for. But is a budget of 4k going to allow it including rods ?

 

[aragorn]

Depends if your budget includes labour or if your doing everything yourself.

Also depends if your willing to shop around and find used/second hand parts, or buy everything new, and wether your going "full frame" or an eliminator like in your ebay link.

If your looking for something between the hybrid and the PE1820 your probably looking more at a GT28RS than a 2071R

I'd say you can probably do it for four grand but you might struggle if your paying out for labour.

 

[Lee172]

Bit off subject but i didnt want to start a new thread.. I may have got my hands on a gt2871r off a friends car, he also has a Ross Machine inlet manifold, whats everyones opinions on these and would it be worth buying?

 

[JS1500]

It's the lag that puts me off BT cars. I think a hybrid would be more 'me'. I love my current (non hybrid) 298lb/ft at 3.5k rpm.
But if I had £4k i'd be looking to get a faster car, not make my current car faster.
B5 RS4s can be found for around £10k now...