Wagner IC higher air intake temp

[kaspar]

I was at the dyno yesterday for a remap

They dynoed the car, and told me they couldn't do anything because of the increased air intake temps.

Idle / ambient temps Was 22 with the stock IC.
T0 40 dec with the Wagner IC.

The 22 temp was from last years remap dyno runs. Where the ambien temp was about 20.
Yesterday at the dyne it was about 27.

What could possible be the reason for the increase in temp?

 

[kaspar]

Had my car checked again, the air intakte temp was 63

 

[ch1z64]

You might want to check out the project room as your answer might be in one off there posts

 

[kaspar]

You might want to check out the project room as your answer might be in one off there posts

i already looked, cant seem to find the answer

 

[nluk100]

You might want to do some logging yourself with vcds to find out why your temps are so high. Could be a few things like a ****** DV or boost leak or running lean.

Had my old s3 on the dyno all afternoon in 30 deg ambient temps and it refused to go above 40 deg intake temp on the std (all alloy) s3 intercooler.

 

[kaspar]

You might want to do some logging yourself with vcds to find out why your temps are so high. Could be a few things like a ****** DV or boost leak or running lean.

Had my old s3 on the dyno all afternoon in 30 deg ambient temps and it refused to go above 40 deg intake temp on the std (all alloy) s3 intercooler.

dont have access to vcds

the wagner IC has increased the flow, and pressure, but cant seem to cool down the air

 

[nluk100]

dont have access to vcds

the wagner IC has increased the flow, and pressure, but cant seem to cool down the air

Then you're going to have to find a specialist to diagnose what's wrong, but unless you are doing back to back 1/4 mile sprints your inlet temps shouldn't be that high imo.

 

[kaspar]

Then you're going to have to find a specialist to diagnose what's wrong, but unless you are doing back to back 1/4 mile sprints your inlet temps shouldn't be that high imo.

yea, there's probably no way around it. I'm gonna do the road logging and see how the temps are then

 

[paddy]

Might just be their Dyno fan cooling system cant cope

 

[kaspar]

Might just be their Dyno fan cooling system cant cope

im pretty sure they had other cars on the dyno before mine.

They told me the dyno was simulating 130-140 km/h

 

[prt57]

Depends where you went for the remap. If I wanted a custom map I would be going to RTech. They would tell you straight away what is going on.
There is a red Golf6R featured in lots of magazines running a TTE 480 turbo with a Wagner IC that makes good figures. Apart from a Welly cooler, the Wagner is about the best you can get providing your AC radiator is not all blocked up. When I fitted my Wagner I changed the air con rad to ensure no unnecessary temperature rises.

 

[paddy]

Kasper
Your sig has said for ages your car is putting out 384bhp but you say you were on the Dyno for a re map ? so presumably you are going stg 3 and have fitted a new turbo. i think you are giving ius only part of the story here ?
What is your car set up ?

 

[leshkin]

I think that it's a common misconception that an uprated IC will offer lower intake temps across the whole range of speeds.

Uprated IC is designed to prioritize air flow over temperature control. Good ICs do both relatively well with a larger core size, but can still perform worse than the stock in certain scenarios when it comes to cooling air.

Also, dynoing a car in this heat is not ideal and even if your tuners dyno cell airflow is setup for ~80mph, it will not 100% simulate you traveling at that speed. The best dyno setup I've seen was at RTech... That thing almost knocked me off my feet and even that struggles to deal with the current ambient temps.

Consider where the stock IC is located... Probably the worst location for it, behind coolant and aircon heat exchangers.

I run an Airtec stg2 IC and with ambient temps at 30C, I'm easily seeing intake temps over 40C even when moving at normal speeds.

Possible solutions:

1. Run Aircon when on Dyno - power lost to aircon motor will be less then the cooling you will get from the radiator fans running all of the time

2. Install water meth injection

3. Move IC to front of car

4. Relax and accept that hot weather will kill your top end power

All of this is assuming that your car is 100% healthy.

 

[paddy]

I agree this is why i said their cooling system prop cant cope with near 30c ambient.

 

[kaspar]

Thanks for the replies

I did replace the ac rad aswell, it was changed together with the IC.

I had my car mapped last year, it was dynoed to 384 on 100 octane, I'm still on stock turbo. Ambient temp at that time was about 20 C, I believe.

I went for a remap again a few days ago, after changing a few things + the IC. Ambient temp 28 C. Hp dropped to 350, with the air intake temp at 40-42 C.

I see what your saying about the ambient temp and the weather is probably the factor.

I spoke to Wagner UK yesterday, about it. They said just about the same things.

Would you still road log the intake temp? Or should I just wait for it to get colder?

I'm not located in the uk it's a 1500km drive to Rtech one way, haha

 

[paddy]

I'm surprised the intake temp dropped your bhp by 35 ?
When i initially had mine dyno'd i had 350 bhp and then fitted a wagner and got 381bhp. This we put down to increased flow rather than just temp.
Makes me wonder if you have a secondary problem ? I have seen std IC's fill with oil which kills flow (and maybe cooling). Mine filled with oil when my dump valve was leaking, fitted a DV+ and that cured it.

 

[paddy]

Can you compare your 385 chart with the 350 chart ?
Where have you lost the BHP ? is it 5k to 7k rpm ?

 

[leshkin]

High intake temp is a very good HP killer - a drop in that region sounds very plausible with this weather, as heat soak will be unreal. I just drove my car after it sat in the sun for a few hours and the intake temps started off at 60C! They would not drop below 42C at below 40mph. Lowest I managed was about 38C with ambient temp at 33C at *cough* motorway speeds *cough*, so that's actually not bad.

Interestingly, making sure that you the turbo is generating boost will reduce intake temps as it will actively push more air through the IC.

The only sure way to manage heat soak that I've seen is with water meth injection and that's a route I'm unlikely to take in a road car.

 

[kaspar]

High intake temp is a very good HP killer - a drop in that region sounds very plausible with this weather, as heat soak will be unreal. I just drove my car after it sat in the sun for a few hours and the intake temps started off at 60C! They would not drop below 42C at below 40mph. Lowest I managed was about 38C with ambient temp at 33C at *cough* motorway speeds *cough*, so that's actually not bad.

Interestingly, making sure that you the turbo is generating boost will reduce intake temps as it will actively push more air through the IC.

The only sure way to manage heat soak that I've seen is with water meth injection and that's a route I'm unlikely to take in a road car.

rofl at the motorway speeds

what do you use to see your temps btw?

meth injection? yeah that's a bit over the top

 

[kaspar]

Can you compare your 385 chart with the 350 chart ?
Where have you lost the BHP ? is it 5k to 7k rpm ?

This is all the runs I've had. The orange is the 384 run, and the light blue the most recent one with the new IC

 

[paddy]

I agree with Lesh now, the chart shows pretty much the same before the turbo cuts in then the loss is right through the range, if it was just a flow problem i would expect to see the drop off up the top as flow becomes critical or restricted but its pretty linier.
It will be interesting now to see what difference the drop in ambient temp makes and that could be down to 20c next week.
we all know cars go best on damp cold mornings and i think your problem is just extreme weather at the moment

 

[kaspar]

Yeah I agree!

Can't wait for this summer to be over, haha

I'm sure there's a little room for some improvements, when the ambient temp drops

 

[gokiwi64]

I regularly see inlet temps over 50c when moving in slow traffic but once up to reasonable speed they drop pretty rapidly. I am using "Torque" for the measurements and instead of the oem side mount intercoolers have metal ones of unknown origins.

 

[leshkin]

rofl at the motorway speeds

what do you use to see your temps btw?

meth injection? yeah that's a bit over the top

I have OBDeleven, which is pretty powerful for a phone app based solution, but normally have the 3P Gauge showing relevant stats...

 

[kaspar]

I have OBDeleven, which is pretty powerful for a phone app based solution, but normally have the 3P Gauge showing relevant stats...

Nice! I was looking at getting that P3 gauge at some point. Now Im going to keep track of the air intake temp..

Did you install it yourself? It looks pretty easy

 

[leshkin]

Nice! I was looking at getting that 3P at some point. Now Im going to keep track of the air intake temp..

Did you install it yourself? It looks pretty easy

Yeah, it is a nice piece of kit. Install is pretty easy if you've taken lower dash trim off before. I've installed the optional dedicated boost sensor as OBD reading isn't that great, so running a boost line from the engine is a bit more involved, but not complex.

 

[kaspar]

Yeah, it is a nice piece of kit. Install is pretty easy if you've taken lower dash trim off before. I've installed the optional dedicated boost sensor as OBD reading isn't that great, so running a boost line from the engine is a bit more involved, but not complex.

Okay great!

I also thought about getting the vcds hex v2 3v.

 

[kaspar]

The vcds is now bought.. I'll see if I can figure out how it works

 

[leshkin]

The vcds is now bought.. I'll see if I can figure out how it works

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page - Very good resource for VCDS

http://www.goapr.co.uk/support/datalogging.php - Nice summary of good blocks to log depending on what you are looking for

 

[nluk100]

As well as logging inlet temps, you need to log requested and actual boost and also EGT's to start with I would suggest.

Make sure you're in turbo mode as things can change quickly whilst logging.

Did your tuner check for error codes?

 

[kaspar]

As well as logging inlet temps, you need to log requested and actual boost and also EGT's to start with I would suggest.

Make sure you're in turbo mode as things can change quickly whilst logging.

Did your tuner check for error codes?

okay, ill log all of those things... EGT = exhaust gas temp?

no, they pretty much just wouldn't touch the car because of the high intake temps, lol

 

[kaspar]

Small update..

Today I got the vcds!

I didn't have much time, but I pretty much just wanted to see the intake temps.. I did some pulls in 3th and 4th gear. With an ambient temp at 26c, the lowest intake temp I got was 32c.