Stock WHP

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Hey guys, going to take my car to a dyno and get a baseline figure before I start building it up.
What WHP figure would you expect from a 225 on a 2wd dyno with the Haldex fuse out.
Cheers
 
We don't talk in WHP in the UK...

A good std 225ps (I assume we are on about a BAM code S3 here) is 222 actual old money bhp at the flywheel... you should get somewhere handy to 220hp give or take dyno lottery and engine wear...

<tuffty/>
 
The dyno actually measures WHP, personally I think it's better to quote figures in WHP than BHP.
But because the WHP figures are always smaller than BHP and manufacturers don't quote WHP figures we have to guess what the BHP might be.
The lottery comes in trying to predict the transmission losses, different dyno's have different ways of doing this but most just use a coast down to try and calculate losses. The manufacturers have the luxury of being able to put the engine on a dyno directly so can measure crank power.
 
Not all dynos 'guess' coastdown... some (like Bills) actually measure coastdown losses...

There is also the question of inertia vs loaded runs... inertia dynos can artificially spike on aggressive cars lifting peak torque and ultimately affecting calculated hp

like I said, dyno lottery... take the figures with a pinch of salt as all are relative at the end of the day...

<tuffty/>
 
I know most dyno's measure coast down losses . But if I take a 150 bhp car to a dyno and measure the power I will get a reading for the transmission loss . I then fit a hybrid turbo and map it so the car is making 300 bhp it would give the same result on the dyno for the coast down.
Yet the car is making twice the power and the transmission losses would appear to be the same, when in fact with twice the power going through the transmission this clearly wouldn't be correct.
There are many articles on this subject net.
http://www.pugheaven.co.uk/coastdown.htm
As you say at the end of the day the figures are relative, and the best use of a dyno is to see the improvements in power that occur when a car is modded, or doing shootouts between similar cars. It's a well known fact some peoples dyno's produce bigger numbers than others.
If everybody quoted whp there would probably be less difference in figures. In America they seem to do this a lot more than we do.
But it doesn't sound as good down the bar as the numbers are smaller.
 
Doesn't always give the same reading for coast down... in my experience higher power cars of the same type actually give more loss overall than lower power ones...

See this on the big turbo S3's vs hybrids... coastdown losses are greater for the same transmissions etc..

All sorts of things affect overall losses.. even between runs, stickier tyres from heat, transmission oil warming up etc

<tuffty/>
 
...and what dynos actually measure is torque... power is derived from torque

<tuffty/>
 
as a small (and inexperienced) note I think my Wheel HP was 174 for Flywheel BHP of 243 (AMK Stage 1 - if I can believe 1 single word of any of my S3 docs)

p-norm 243bhp
p-engine 241bhp
p-wheel 174.5bhp
p-drag 66.5bhp
@6170 RPM

p-wheel+p-drag = p-engine?

240 lb-ft
@4330 RPM

to be honest it doesn't feel that powerful - so would be interesting to see if it is anywhere near those figures nowadays.
 
I don't know - those are the figures I have from a remap carried out years ago by the original owner, whether they are good or not I have no idea?

not sure if it makes a difference but I still have original sized wheels and tyres on.
 
Hub dyno's seem to be more accurate, but they are few and far between with tuners and tend to be more expensive to use due to the wheels having to be removed.
 
What makes you think a normal dyno isn't accurate? what defines accuracy?... a dyno is a tool for tuning ultimately... figures are relative...

<tuffty/>
 
A hub dyno takes away one of the possible issues that may exist with a more conventional dyno which is wheel slip or the effect of tyre pressure /grip so I would potentially say it has the ability to be more accurate. But I think we have established it's all a bit of a guessing game trying to calculate bhp. I would have thought WHP on a hub dyno would give you very comparable figures between cars.
 
as a small (and inexperienced) note I think my Wheel HP was 174 for Flywheel BHP of 243 (AMK Stage 1 - if I can believe 1 single word of any of my S3 docs)

p-norm 243bhp
p-engine 241bhp
p-wheel 174.5bhp
p-drag 66.5bhp
@6170 RPM

p-wheel+p-drag = p-engine?

240 lb-ft
@4330 RPM

to be honest it doesn't feel that powerful - so would be interesting to see if it is anywhere near those figures nowadays.

so you have paper work for your stage 1 map? I thought you were just told it had a stage 1 map with a suspicious MBC under the bonnet?
 
The dyno actually measures WHP, personally I think it's better to quote figures in WHP than BHP.
But because the WHP figures are always smaller than BHP and manufacturers don't quote WHP figures we have to guess what the BHP might be.
The lottery comes in trying to predict the transmission losses, different dyno's have different ways of doing this but most just use a coast down to try and calculate losses. The manufacturers have the luxury of being able to put the engine on a dyno directly so can measure crank power.
no it is'nt.. and its because it takes no allowance of gear used, tyres on car, run time of run, etc etc Essentially any losses which are going on.
pump your tyres up way high and get higher whp.. make it real? nope..
 
I know most dyno's measure coast down losses . But if I take a 150 bhp car to a dyno and measure the power I will get a reading for the transmission loss . I then fit a hybrid turbo and map it so the car is making 300 bhp it would give the same result on the dyno for the coast down.
Yet the car is making twice the power and the transmission losses would appear to be the same, when in fact with twice the power going through the transmission this clearly wouldn't be correct.
There are many articles on this subject net.
http://www.pugheaven.co.uk/coastdown.htm
As you say at the end of the day the figures are relative, and the best use of a dyno is to see the improvements in power that occur when a car is modded, or doing shootouts between similar cars. It's a well known fact some peoples dyno's produce bigger numbers than others.
If everybody quoted whp there would probably be less difference in figures. In America they seem to do this a lot more than we do.
But it doesn't sound as good down the bar as the numbers are smaller.
double the power of the engine the coastdown losses would not be the same
your logic in flawed
 
so you have paper work for your stage 1 map? I thought you were just told it had a stage 1 map with a suspicious MBC under the bonnet?

The stage 1 paperwork comprises of a laminated dynorun. The original owner had lots of invoices (expensive).

The mbc is no longer joined up N75 instead again nowand the forge dv is replaced with a 710N. I actually quite liked the noise from the forge DV not the "Shhhhh" But the "clunk"/"knock"
So it still boosts to 20psi but usually 16.5.

A bit chavvy but with the N75 upside down, plugged in is 16.5psi and disconnected is 25psi and a bit wild. I was considering a switch in the car to disconnect the electric to the N75 for a "push to pass" plaything. But I have an ever growing list of important things to do first, even brakes are being priority dropped over other things cropping up.
 
Do that and say goodbye to your rods then... assuming the ECU doesn't spazz out and hit limp mode first... 25psi is not good for a std engine and 1.8t's in general unless progressively mapped.. they get too hot too quickly and die on their a*se

Stage 1 boost is 16-18psi depending on how tolerant the engine is to it... running uncontrolled boost like will end in tears, the ECU will be pulling timing like mad I expect too depending on how much was mapped in...

Not safe dude by a long way

<tuffty/>
 
Thanks for the re-assertion tufty - I will not be doing this, I am finding it difficult enough keeping up with the normal maintenance of this car and want it to better when I am finished with it than when it arrived, so will try and keep it safe and sound.
 
The stage 1 paperwork comprises of a laminated dynorun. The original owner had lots of invoices (expensive).

The mbc is no longer joined up N75 instead again nowand the forge dv is replaced with a 710N. I actually quite liked the noise from the forge DV not the "Shhhhh" But the "clunk"/"knock"
So it still boosts to 20psi but usually 16.5.

A bit chavvy but with the N75 upside down, plugged in is 16.5psi and disconnected is 25psi and a bit wild. I was considering a switch in the car to disconnect the electric to the N75 for a "push to pass" plaything. But I have an ever growing list of important things to do first, even brakes are being priority dropped over other things cropping up.

I await the post of "my engines broken" thread shortly if that's what you are going to do with it
 
I think I would just not say anything :)

Thanks though - it is running on normal again now N75 710N, and is all good.

Now I am even a bit worried about the 20psi spike where 16.5 is normal since going for a 1.8T golf 710N

what I will say (maybe my inexperience and slow clutch and gear changes after driving an automatic v6 for years) is between gears the engine speed doesn't drop as quick as I imagined - I don't think it is a fault, I think it is me. don't have this in the Punto 1.2 active :)
 
Go to AMD. Their rollers are absolutely accurate :haha::whistle2:
 
Go to AMD. Their rollers are absolutely accurate :haha::whistle2:

Funnily enough,they're actually not too far off.

I think you may be digging up some historical quotes there.
Mine has been on a few dynos and theirs compares well with other figures.
 
I think they have recalibrated them a while back as dynos figures were a little pub worthy back in the day compared...

I reiterate... take figures with a pinch of salt... if on a dyno day you can compare to other cars there on the day but without any form of comparison a figure is a figure

<tuffty/>
 
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I think I would just not say anything :)

Thanks though - it is running on normal again now N75 710N, and is all good.

Now I am even a bit worried about the 20psi spike where 16.5 is normal since going for a 1.8T golf 710N

what I will say (maybe my inexperience and slow clutch and gear changes after driving an automatic v6 for years) is between gears the engine speed doesn't drop as quick as I imagined - I don't think it is a fault, I think it is me. don't have this in the Punto 1.2 active :)

possible clutch switch faulty if revs hang.. cable throttle or dbw on yours?
 
Funnily enough,they're actually not too far off.

I think you may be digging up some historical quotes there.
Mine has been on a few dynos and theirs compares well with other figures.
they had to do something, they were giving very happy readings for some time.....
reports I've seen is they're pretty comparible on bhp to the like of mine now more or less.. give or take the usual lottery

dyno-lottery.jpg
 
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they had to do something, they were giving very happy readings for some time.....
reports I've seen is they're pretty comparible on bhp to the like of mine now more or less.. give or take the usual lottery

dyno-lottery.jpg
Bill what are your thoughts on dyno types/makes?
I had a good conversation with Rick on the topic which was insightful, especially with regards US vs UK, dynojet vs dynodynamics.

I know it's a moot topic but it's always good to hear from a dyno operator.
I think the major issue in car culture is not acknowledging dynos as a tuning tool rather than a output measuring device.
 
possible clutch switch faulty if revs hang.. cable throttle or dbw on yours?

the revs don't drop on mine very quickly either. Would a faulty clutch switch produce a fault code? I don't have any codes (dbw)
 
Bill what are your thoughts on dyno types/makes?
I had a good conversation with Rick on the topic which was insightful, especially with regards US vs UK, dynojet vs dynodynamics.

I know it's a moot topic but it's always good to hear from a dyno operator.
I think the major issue in car culture is not acknowledging dynos as a tuning tool rather than a output measuring device.

Use of dyno by an operator is very significant imho, especially with some makes of dyno which do not measure coastdowns, choosing to add a %/factor to the power run atw figure to "estimate" flywheel/engine power. These estimating dynos, dyno dynamics, and possibly dyno developments also, add to a measured atw figure to get a fly number. These sort of dynos are very susceptible to strapping properly, and can be tricked into reading a high number by simply pumping up the tyres very high.. Also on high power runs, where strapping allows the wheels to ride up off the rear roller, they simply cannot be accurate on loss calculation where rolling losses under power changed during the run, rising off a rear roller... contact patch changed.. but is not measured.

An operator being in "tune" with whats going on, picking up on a wheelspin run for example, as often it will be giving a high yet unrealistic run number.

You have inertia dynos, braked ones, combination of both... twin roller, single large roller... Many variations of design.

Some dynos have poor control.... so operator cannot select a suitable load rate, which in terms of maha dynos to pick one, overly long runs are a consequence..
some dynos appear to inflate losses, after many corrections to atw figure to fly inflate fly too much

USA vs UK from what I've seen and read over the years it very happy dynojets in the usa where their atw figures seem more like our fly.

only uk dynojet I've seen and been on is awesomes. It read higher power and especially torque than my own. Its happier.

They are all a tuning tool however. Pick one, stick with it as a tuning gauge. So long as its used consistently it should show gains and losses as you go down the tuning route game.

Not everyone will agree with me of course, but this is my take on things as I have seen and experienced them
 
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they had to do something, they were giving very happy readings for some time.....
reports I've seen is they're pretty comparible on bhp to the like of mine now more or less.. give or take the usual lottery

dyno-lottery.jpg

Dyno lottery is exactly the right term.

I've been going there for a few years now,and always found the dyno to be just about right,as my car struggled to make rated power before any mods,and squeaked in at 260bhp initially.

My more recent results were finding the car would just about make 500bhp with everything maxed out,and figures from Storm plus the "bum" dyno bore that out as well after it's most recent upgrades.

I always allow at least 5% and tell people to allow at least that much as well.
 
I think my AMK is "Drive by Wire" if that's what you mean rather than the throttle cable.

I will find the clutch switch in VCDS and try a scan - thanks.
 

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