Should the Pope be treated as a terrorist ?
- Thread starter co55ie
- Start date
Here guys I think you all need a wee clip round the ear.
Yes religon does tend to be the catalyst for alot of wrong doings in this World. But what you will tend to find is that it is extremists that cause problems.
To say the Pope should be a terrorist I think your on a different planet mate from the rest of us. Do you consider the Pope and Saddam to be doing the same things but in different ways? I think not.
Maybe the Dali Lama is just the same as Osam Bin Laden.
Yes religon does tend to be the catalyst for alot of wrong doings in this World. But what you will tend to find is that it is extremists that cause problems.
To say the Pope should be a terrorist I think your on a different planet mate from the rest of us. Do you consider the Pope and Saddam to be doing the same things but in different ways? I think not.
Maybe the Dali Lama is just the same as Osam Bin Laden.
AndyMac
Retired from service
I don't think co55ie was seriously suggesting hanging the pope for terrorism, or that by changing the Catholic condom rule Africa will be sorted.
I think he was posing the question that in the current ludicrous climate of blame culture we live in and the new anti-terrorism laws there's a huge hypocrisy here that should be debated.
Blimey some of you guys are worse than the tabloid press, taking one statement literally & totally out of context and drawing all manner of wrong conclusions.
And BTW Chris "slavery has nothing to do with building wealth, slaves bring nothing except labour"
Unlimited free labour doesn't build wealth? What planet are you on?
I think he was posing the question that in the current ludicrous climate of blame culture we live in and the new anti-terrorism laws there's a huge hypocrisy here that should be debated.
Blimey some of you guys are worse than the tabloid press, taking one statement literally & totally out of context and drawing all manner of wrong conclusions.
And BTW Chris "slavery has nothing to do with building wealth, slaves bring nothing except labour"
Unlimited free labour doesn't build wealth? What planet are you on?
Is it true that following the annointment of the current Pope, Glasgow Rangers FC removed Eggs Benedict from its corporate menu, and replaced it with Duck a l'Orange?
TDI-line
Uber Post Whore
S3QuattroDrift
Drifting With All 4 Wheels
I think co55ie made a bit of judgement error. I am sure he was making an ill thought out joke which has backfired by serious debate of an issue that most will agree is nonsense. Being an undecided, i am happy for my wife to raise our children as Catholics and have to say that the 15 or so priests i now know are some of the coolest people i have met.
AndyMac
Retired from service
Ahhh the coolness barometer, finally we have closure!
If you're old enough to have a wife & kids and you're still undecided I don't think it's gonna happen is it?
If you're old enough to have a wife & kids and you're still undecided I don't think it's gonna happen is it?
S3QuattroDrift said:
Definitely not a joke , I hardly think that the catholic church's stance toward condoms in countries with HIV epidemics is nonsense. If you think its nonsense then you need serious help.
I think that this stance by the catholic church is an extremist policy , you just cant justify it .
If this was a muslim policy that was enforced as vigorously as the priests/ ministers in Africa do the whole world would be up in arms.
silver75 said:
Extract from a study by the UN
"A new report from the United Nations says that AIDS will kill half of all 15 year olds in Zimbabwe, Botswana, and South Africa if something is not done soon. The report goes on to say that about 24 million people in Sub-Sahara Africa are living with HIV. .
Without condoms, heterosexual transmission continues to soar. Consider this. In some African nations, 1 in 3 adults are infected with HIV. Unprotected sexual contact is common, making transmission more likely and more widespread."
As you say Silver 75 Africa is a continent not a country but the situation is horrific
co55ie said:
If your going to be the devils advocate then get your facts straight. According to the World Health Organisation report for 2006
1) 38.6 million poeple world wide have HIV/AIDS
2) 2.8 million died of AIDS last year
3) 4.1 million are newly infected.
The population of Africa at the last UN estimate (2000) 795,382,000. Even if every HIV infected person lived in Africa then this still would still only make 4% (or 1 in 25) of the population of Africa HIV infected so your 1 in 3 is completely wrong.
As to prevention this is what the WHO says
"In an encouraging development, six of 11 African countries reported declines of 25% or more in HIV prevalence among 15-24 year-olds in capital cities. Rates of sex among young people declined in nine of 14 sub-Saharan countries. Condom use with a non-regular partner increased in eight out of 11 countries here, although overall use of condoms remains below 50%. Use of HIV testing and counselling, an important tool for facilitating both treatment and prevention, quadrupled to 16.5 million people tested in 2005. In 58 countries reporting, 74% of primary schools and 81% of secondary schools now provide AIDS education.
While this progress is notable, the HIV prevention response falls short in many areas. The Declaration of Commitment calls for 90% of young people to be knowledgeable about AIDS by 2005, yet surveys indicate that fewer than 50% of young people achieved comprehensive knowledge levels. An area of exceptional concern is the ongoing shortfall in care to prevent."
Since you've got you facts completely wrong on the spread of Aids then I'll have to assume that you facts about the catholic church are equally crap and are you own personnal bigoted views
Well played enda1, I always knew that 1 in 3 statistic inaccurate. And while not ideal i think your statistics about the rate of HIV spread in Africa are encouraging...one thing i disagree with though.. i dont think co55ie's views are bigoted though and he is right that people are going over the top with the whole Islam thing hopefully thats the end of this thread now 
Rev-head
Registered User
S3QuattroDrift said:
My little girl goes to a Catholic school as well and it is the best school around for miles......and the people that work there are great ......Same as yourself the fathers and Canon are some of the nicest people you will ever meet
enda1 said:
What you fail to seem to be able to get your own personal bigoted views around is the fact that the majority of people in the continenet of Africa whom have the HIV virus dont realise they have even got it, so how on earth can they be accounted for . This is the exact reason why the Catholic churchs policy is so damaging and killing people which they are fully aware of.
enda1 said:
Thats your problem, you assume.
According to you then the United Nations Study is completely wrong ? It is wrong I would agree because the situation is far worse that any survey statistic can show .
Funnily enough though you are happy to use UN figures for a population estimate yourself.
Are the UN wrong or are they right or do you just pick and choose whatever you feel suits yourself and your bigoted personal views ?
co55ie you like a row dont you.. even if they dont know they have it its still not 1 in 3
According todays Metro about 24 million have it in Africa, even if another 24 million have it and dont know that still doesnt make 1 in 3 you will need about 200 million people in africa to have AIDS to get close to your figure.
According todays Metro about 24 million have it in Africa, even if another 24 million have it and dont know that still doesnt make 1 in 3 you will need about 200 million people in africa to have AIDS to get close to your figure.
"A new report from the United Nations says that AIDS will kill half of all 15 year olds in Zimbabwe, Botswana, and South Africa if something is not done soon. The report goes on to say that about 24 million people in Sub-Sahara Africa are living with HIV. .
Without condoms, heterosexual transmission continues to soar. Consider this. In some African nations, 1 in 3 adults are infected with HIV. Unprotected sexual contact is common, making transmission more likely and more widespread."
it clearly states in SOME African nations. I agree that I should have made this point more clear in my very first post. But to be honest its irrelevant the situation is horrific and the catholic church is adding fuel to the fire..
Without condoms, heterosexual transmission continues to soar. Consider this. In some African nations, 1 in 3 adults are infected with HIV. Unprotected sexual contact is common, making transmission more likely and more widespread."
it clearly states in SOME African nations. I agree that I should have made this point more clear in my very first post. But to be honest its irrelevant the situation is horrific and the catholic church is adding fuel to the fire..
co55ie.
i'm taking my statistics from the 2006 World Health organisation on Aids.
The reason I have to assume you views are incorrect is that you were incorrect in your statement that 1 in 3 people in Africa have aids so how can i accept you are correct on the Catholic church.
If the UN study says different then use that in you argument not a made up 1 in 3 figure.
As to being bigoted,to be bigoted is "utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own".
I have in no way been intolerant to you creed or belief. i merely pointed out that your statistics were wrong and blaming someone elses creed or belief with some of the language you have used means you are coming pretty close to presenting youself as a bigot
i'm taking my statistics from the 2006 World Health organisation on Aids.
The reason I have to assume you views are incorrect is that you were incorrect in your statement that 1 in 3 people in Africa have aids so how can i accept you are correct on the Catholic church.
If the UN study says different then use that in you argument not a made up 1 in 3 figure.
As to being bigoted,to be bigoted is "utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own".
I have in no way been intolerant to you creed or belief. i merely pointed out that your statistics were wrong and blaming someone elses creed or belief with some of the language you have used means you are coming pretty close to presenting youself as a bigot
Rev-head
Registered User
Rev-head said:
Yep the people who cant get their head around the word SOME
The statement from the UN I quoted from clearly states 1 in 3 people in SOME African Nations.
enda1 said:
They aernt my figures they are UN figures. The UN claims that in SOME AFRICAN NATIONS THAT 1 IN 3 PEOPLE ARE HIV POSITIVE , SOME does not mean all African Nations it means SOME.
the quote again from my earlier post
Extract from a study by the UN
"In some African nations, 1 in 3 adults are infected with HIV. Unprotected sexual contact is common, making transmission more likely and more widespread."
Of course, even if the Catholic Church did relax it's views on contraception, it would not address the problem - the majority people who are at the heart of this debate do not have access to or the money to buy contraception, and without a massive education campaign, to convince them that they do not need to have so many children and a huge cash influx from the associated governments to fund supply, the problem would continue to increase.
Blaming the Cathiloc Church for the epedemic would be like blaming the US government for every shooting in the USA - because the government states that you may own a gun. The fact is that you don't have to own a gun, and if you do - you don't have to shoot anyone with it.
Simply put - yes, I do believe that the Catholic Shurch should relax it's views, but can they be blamed for the epedemic? No, I don't think they can, as they also promote monogamy and not having sex before marriage, which means that no one would therefore pass on any diseases to anyone else. If these people followed all the "rules" there wouldn't be a problem. The Church is not forcing people to have unprotected sex - they have the option of not having sex at all, or sticking to one partner. If the problem is increasing, then the affected people are obviously having sex with multiple partners - something which the Church does not promote. If you are going to blame the Church for this because of the fact that they do not allow the use of contraception, then you must also blame the people for not sticking to one partner. If you follow any kind of faith, then stick to all the rules, not just the ones that agree with your lifestyle.
Just in case you're interested - I am athiest, but have the utmost respect for all faiths. Get this - my sister is a reverend! Don't ask me how that happened!!!
Blaming the Cathiloc Church for the epedemic would be like blaming the US government for every shooting in the USA - because the government states that you may own a gun. The fact is that you don't have to own a gun, and if you do - you don't have to shoot anyone with it.
Simply put - yes, I do believe that the Catholic Shurch should relax it's views, but can they be blamed for the epedemic? No, I don't think they can, as they also promote monogamy and not having sex before marriage, which means that no one would therefore pass on any diseases to anyone else. If these people followed all the "rules" there wouldn't be a problem. The Church is not forcing people to have unprotected sex - they have the option of not having sex at all, or sticking to one partner. If the problem is increasing, then the affected people are obviously having sex with multiple partners - something which the Church does not promote. If you are going to blame the Church for this because of the fact that they do not allow the use of contraception, then you must also blame the people for not sticking to one partner. If you follow any kind of faith, then stick to all the rules, not just the ones that agree with your lifestyle.
Just in case you're interested - I am athiest, but have the utmost respect for all faiths. Get this - my sister is a reverend! Don't ask me how that happened!!!
The catholic church cant be blamed for the epidemic but they can be blamed for helping it to escalate to these proportions.
In all honesty how can the Vatican still try and uphold this position in these circumstances . Its a crime against humanity, if its not then what is it and how do you define a crime against humanity if this isnt ?
How many people would be involved in any Group / sect / cult that tried to enforce these kinds of rules and beliefs in these circumstances if it wasnt in the name of Religion and faith.
The answer nobody.
In all honesty how can the Vatican still try and uphold this position in these circumstances . Its a crime against humanity, if its not then what is it and how do you define a crime against humanity if this isnt ?
How many people would be involved in any Group / sect / cult that tried to enforce these kinds of rules and beliefs in these circumstances if it wasnt in the name of Religion and faith.
The answer nobody.
Is any of this affecting you? no.
Do you think anybody over there gives a **** about you and whether you can pay your mortgage or not?
Let them get on with their own lives, there's plenty of uneducated people in the world and none of that is the West's problem. Too many wrongs get dumped at the doors of the western society and that ****** me off.
We have enough of our own problems to worry about without taking on another continents troubles.
If they want to **** and contract AIDS thats their perogative, you have to want to learn, nobody can make you, and if the people in africa can't tell that ******* without a johnny leads to death when all around them people are dying then more fool them!
Do you think anybody over there gives a **** about you and whether you can pay your mortgage or not?
Let them get on with their own lives, there's plenty of uneducated people in the world and none of that is the West's problem. Too many wrongs get dumped at the doors of the western society and that ****** me off.
We have enough of our own problems to worry about without taking on another continents troubles.
If they want to **** and contract AIDS thats their perogative, you have to want to learn, nobody can make you, and if the people in africa can't tell that ******* without a johnny leads to death when all around them people are dying then more fool them!
co55ie said:
Not really. If the people also obeyed the other views on monogamy and sex before marriage, there would not be a problem at all. They would still have far too many people, but nowhere near as many would be infected with HIV.
There are plenty of other Caltholic based countries (Mexico for example) who do not have an epedemic on this scale. Therefore, it can only be something specific to the affected countries and the people.
Erm, doesn't the catholic church also preach monogamy? If so, how does that fit in with the AIDS epidemic? What a loser!
*edited to say, damn you Outlaw. You beat me to it
*edited to say, damn you Outlaw. You beat me to it
ChriS3 said:Erm, doesn't the catholic church also preach monogamy? If so, how does that fit in with the AIDS epidemic? What a loser!
*edited to say, damn you Outlaw. You beat me to it
The catholic church can preach all they like but we dont live in a world where there gospel is of any relevance.
A4Quattro said:
Do you think you would think the same if and when this epidemic spreads even wider and effecs you ?
Cossie, I think it's time you gave this one up. You have presented your opinion and the reasons why you hold it, and invited everyone to say whether they agree with you or not. Pretty much everyone has said they do not.
They are not going to change their minds because you keep badgering them.
Please find something else to talk about.
They are not going to change their minds because you keep badgering them.
Please find something else to talk about.
Rev-head
Registered User
co55ie said:
So it seems what you're saying is people are getting AIDS because they're Catholic and don't belive in contraception, and yet they are not being Catholic and monogamous so what relevance is their gospel? It's a contradictory and unsighted arguement that you're trying to make.
Lets move on...
Fair enough
Andy Mac has pointed out that majority of people who have posted on this thread have totally missed the point which could have resulted in a good debate regarding the hypocrisy and double standard society that we are all currenty forced to live in.
Shame people cant see past the end of their own nose sometime until its to late that is.
Andy Mac has pointed out that majority of people who have posted on this thread have totally missed the point which could have resulted in a good debate regarding the hypocrisy and double standard society that we are all currenty forced to live in.
Shame people cant see past the end of their own nose sometime until its to late that is.
Onlyme said:yes lets move on, can we talk about lesbians please as im practicing to be one and can now breathe through my ears
The Lesbians role in the catholic church it is top choice
I was going to explain my point of view better but I think I'll just say I think the Vatican (along with all other religions) has a lot to answer for and I think the point cossie was trying to make is vaild, if the Vatican changed there stance in Africa it WOULD save lives and a lot of them.
AndyMac
Retired from service
Unfortunately you can't have a balanced debate about religion. I think the blindness of "blind faith" just doesn't allow for it.
If I did have some sort of religious faith then I would hope I'd have enough belief in it to NOT get so arsey when someone has the nerve to question a potentially life threatening aspect of it. Next we'll be arguing that Jehovas Witnesses have a perfect right to deny their kids a life saving blood transfusion. Forget the stats, you can cut them any which way but you can't deny the problem is huge and if the rule was relaxed and it only saved one life, would that not be worth it?
If I did have some sort of religious faith then I would hope I'd have enough belief in it to NOT get so arsey when someone has the nerve to question a potentially life threatening aspect of it. Next we'll be arguing that Jehovas Witnesses have a perfect right to deny their kids a life saving blood transfusion. Forget the stats, you can cut them any which way but you can't deny the problem is huge and if the rule was relaxed and it only saved one life, would that not be worth it?
As you point out the moment faith or religion come into any situation out come the defence barriers and the blinkered view.
Its actually pathetic that people have even attempted to justify this particular scenario in this thread . No surprises that every attempt was made to skirt round the issues rather than discuss them head on. The monoagamy comments are laughable.
It didnt take long for the bigot card to played either.
No surprise there. How very very sad I know lets talk statistics , call someone a bigot misquote them ,in fact do anything rather than deal with the problem or even accept there is one.
As you say Andy Mac if only one life was saved then it would be a positive result . The reality is many many thousands of lifes could have and would have been saved allready.
Its actually pathetic that people have even attempted to justify this particular scenario in this thread . No surprises that every attempt was made to skirt round the issues rather than discuss them head on. The monoagamy comments are laughable.
It didnt take long for the bigot card to played either.
No surprise there. How very very sad I know lets talk statistics , call someone a bigot misquote them ,in fact do anything rather than deal with the problem or even accept there is one. As you say Andy Mac if only one life was saved then it would be a positive result . The reality is many many thousands of lifes could have and would have been saved allready.
there is a problem, you.
You say your playing devils advocate, you ask a ridiculous question and then you shout down everyone who disagrees with you. Lets just talk about lesbians or something pleeease.
You say your playing devils advocate, you ask a ridiculous question and then you shout down everyone who disagrees with you. Lets just talk about lesbians or something pleeease.
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