what do I need to reach 400+bhp

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snowden952

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I currently have a 3 inch turbo back with decat, 3 inch turbo intake, forge dv, front mount, uprated pannel filter and now have IE rifle drilled forged rods with calico bearings and arp bolts. Will have a exhaust manifold on order soon. What else do I need other than a bigger turbo?
 
Haha thats not really the answer I was looking for.
 
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Well it's a pretty stupid, and well documented question which if you have to ask you certainly don't have the minerals to do.

So I suggest, you get a big wad of cash (£6000 should do it) and find yourself a tuner who know's what they're doing.

:)
 
Well there's no need to be rude was only asking for some advice but clearly in not going to get that so thanks anyway :)
 
The service you're asking for (talking through a 400bhp build) isn't something that can be done over the internet.

All we can do is tell you to buy a collection of parts, based around second hand opinions from the very small handfull of people who have a 400bhp 1.8t.

The very best thing you can do is search the forum for threads like this -

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/what-turbocharger-to-use-aiming-for-350-400bhp-s3.193281/

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/what-clutch-for-400bhp-s3.108891/

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-going-upto-350-400bhp-what-brake-upgrades.176380/

And then read Pauls thread - http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/my-minor-modding-thread.76389/unread

And ask yourself if you think you actually want a 400bhp S3 and if you've got the money, expertise and patience for it.

Because it isn't going to be in any way shape or form easy, and it isn't going to be buying parts off the shelf. It's all going to be custom work.
 
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Uprated Injectors
Uprated Turbo
Pistons
Cams
Mapping
Exhaust manifold

Plus Clutch/flywheel/brakes to handle the increase.
 
What is the use of the car? Daily driven?

Forgetting engine spec, is the rest of the car up to spec to handle 400bhp?

'Getting' to 400bhp is fairly easy in principle.

Getting there reliability and safely is another matter all together, and will require LOTS of money.

You'll also need a fairly decent ability / skill level to maintain and run it yourself unless money isn't an issue. These things don't tend to be without their problems.
 
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Car is only used for fun as I have other vehicles and it will all slowly start to get to that spec as I'm in no rush to get it to 400bhp just a project that I want to start and have a bit of fun with.
 
Basically at a stretch for £1500 you could get to about ~350hp if you fit the below yourself:
Hybrid ko4
Relentless manifold
630cc injectors
Inline fuel pump
Custom map

If you want more..... Then £££ if you want reliability
 
You go find me a K04 hybrid which reliably makes 350bhp and I'll eat a handful of my own ****.
 
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snowden952 said:
I currently have a 3 inch turbo back with decat, 3 inch turbo intake, forge dv, front mount, uprated pannel filter and now have IE rifle drilled forged rods with calico bearings and arp bolts. Will have a exhaust manifold on order soon. What else do I need other than a bigger turbo?
Click to expand...

In addition to what has already been mentioned WMI would be an idea.

If your engine is over 100k then probably a top end rebuild too, both my engines had proper slack exhaust valve guides and hardened / stretched seals too.

It's the little unexpected items that crop up along the way that can burn the cash
 
I'd be wanting minimum forged rods and Pistons with over 350.
 
Lee coley said:
I'd be wanting minimum forged rods and Pistons with over 350.
Click to expand...

Rods = YES
Pistons = Not necessarily needed if staying standard bore. Standard pistons are already forged.
 
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Stroke and bore, lols.

1.8t's with a normal K04 hybrid do not make 350bhp for long.
 
353bhp on Prawn's, 348bhp on mine. Nowt unreliable about either of them.

...how would you like your **** served? Warm, chilled, or in a liquid form?
 
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Prawn only ran it for a couple of months, and it's not making 350 on yours. And now you're sacking it off for an 064...

As you were...
 
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Because I got bored. It was an awesome drive, but was just on the hunt for a little more.

Driving the cars I build isn't really where the fun is for me. I enjoy building them, and tinkering with them. My '023 hybrid build was "finished", and couldn't really go much further, so I wanted something new. Add into that the fact that the last trackday left me with a missfire, which was diagnosed as a valve issue after taking the head off, it made sense to upgrade while the engine was in bits.

Mylo had an '064 for sale with the 1.8t adapter for a price which (even with selling the '023, manifold, lines, TIP and downpipe, for what I consider good money) left me with a better turbo, and £300 in the bank, meant the upgrade was pretty much "free" using the good old fashioned man-maths calculator (£150 for lines, which left me £150 for the fabrication work, which was easily doable).

Unfortunately I didn't bank on the £750 it has cost me for the uprated exhaust valve springs, the inconel exhaust valves, and the porting and polishing! :p

Once I finish this build, I will probably end up moving on to another turbo, lol! I was the same as a kid with Lego...the minute I had built it, I took it apart and made something else. Playing with it is boring; making it is where the fun is for me. I enjoy a challenge... and part of that is why my engine bay looks like this at the moment, while I do an engine bay tuck (temporary small port head to mock up with):

IMAG11601


Serves no purpose whatsoever, is taking an absolute age, and seems to be costing a lot more than it should...but to me, its interesting, and I enjoy a challenge. I like doing stuff differently. I want people to be intrigued by what I'm doing, and hopefully this will happen soon enough with this build.

...so that's why I'm not running the most-awesome-hybrid-K04-in-the-world anymore. Not because it was crap or unreliable, but because I am a sad-act who has nothing better to do with his time than tinker with his car! After all...if I wasn't playing cars, I'd have to clothes shop with the woman...and nobody wants that!
 
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superkarl said:
legend
Click to expand...

He most certainly is that indeed.

A slightly odd one, I first met him about 8 years ago on a seat-less bicycle forum. It all went downhill from there really, now he sends my mum parcels for me with funny names on them.
 
16Klappe said:
Prawn only ran it for a couple of months, and it's not making 350 on yours. And now you're sacking it off for an 064...

As you were...
Click to expand...

it was on mine for 18 months. a year at 350.

348 on Georges is near enough for me!

I think he just likes to be different. Will be interesting to see what his 064 does, it's a good build.
 
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george_seamons said:
What do you mean by that Bill?
Click to expand...

misfire, exhaust valves, springs changed - What a Shocker indeed

Just like a certain S3 which got told by me it had weak exhaust valve springs, which led to top end misfire on and old 150k mile AGU head... Instead of acknowledging this, a certain manifold and me got blamed for what was in fact a 'poorly/tired engine'. Same car also having 38-45% cyl leakdown on 3 of its 4cyl, so not a good example of a fresh "assembled" engine at all.
Said car, then got its head rebuilt, and fitted cat gold dual exhaust valve springs... go figure (why rebuild it if it was ok??).. None of this of course was ever made public once the BS mud slinging bandwagen kicked off of course. The FACTs of what really was occurring was lost & blurred in the one sided pitiful hatred and slurring which commenced thereafter on FB, and the many fanboys and ignorant of the facts parties.

AGU heads dont have the same exhaust valve spring setups (no shim) so less preload, and high milage valvetrain wont be as 'springy' for valve retention where they have to act against significant exhaust back pressures as in k04 setups and hybrids.. etc etc blah blah

Knowing all the facts helps ;)
 
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That's got nothing to do with this though. I've only upgraded because I'm aiming for closer to the 400bhp that the valves are supposedly good for. While it's in bits and having all the work done, an extra £300 for in theory a very future proof head made sense to spend.

You know as well as I do that your manifold choked my engine compared to the v4. I gained 20bhp with no map alterations, just the manifold change. If the "certain manifold" was ok, why was it revised...and why is it no longer available?!

That's not what this thread is about though...so lets not get personal, by digging up the past.
 
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george_seamons said:
That's got nothing to do with this though. I've only upgraded because I'm aiming for closer to the 400bhp that the valves are supposedly good for. While it's in bits and having all the work done, an extra £300 for in theory a very future proof head made sense to spend.

You know as well as I do that your manifold choked my engine compared to the v4. I gained 20bhp with no map alterations, just the manifold change.

That's not what this thread is about though...so lets not get personal, and dig up the past.
Click to expand...

Believe what you want to believe
Facts are what I deal with

You had misfire.. your words. You asked. I explained

I give you an explanation of what occurs and will occur where full consideration is not taken and what can/will happen. Whilst this occurs egt's will sky rocket also such is the combustion cycle occurring outside of the cylinder and in the exhaust mani/turbo because the exhaust valves are not able to close due to their weakness vs backpressures. But hey, lets not worry about actual facts of what will occur when their can be so much more "fun" to be had witch hunting on FB eh!

Power @ any cost vs Reliable power will remain the decision makers for folks. Number chasers or realists presented with all the facts
 
I didn't have a missfire at the mapping stage. If I did, it would have happened on the v4 too. The lack of collector was the issue. If it wasn't, why have they all been recalled to have one fitted?

I suggest you leave it before you do your reputation any more harm...
 
So what you both are saying goes really is that going to 400 hp Requires a head rebuild as the springs and valve seats are tired and you will ultimately have a leaky combustion chamber ??
 
Not really, no. Bill is just making excuses for his manifold being a flop, but then can't accept that it was a flop by his actions of recalling all of the first batch of manifolds to modify them.

Irrespective of that, 400bhp seems to be the accepted limit for the stock valves. Anything close to, or above this, and it is recommended that inconel exhaust valves are fitted.
The back pressure produced by a K04 hybrid (which won't get you 400bhp...which kinda defeats the object of mentioning it in the converstation), causes the valves to suffer from valve float...this is overcome by fitting stronger springs. If you are replacing the valves, you may as well replace the springs too.
 
george_seamons said:
I didn't have a missfire at the mapping stage. If I did, it would have happened on the v4 too. The lack of collector was the issue. If it wasn't, why have they all been recalled to have one fitted?
Click to expand...


You had a misfire. On track.. Way harder duty than a dyno run.
The misfire on track was the SAME cause.. and is irrespective of manifold, hybrids run high back pressures. Excessive back pressure, agu built head, weak exhaust valve springs etc. Facts.

Top end flow was an issue on gen1 past 6500rpm (hardly the end of the world) but the other utter BS nonsense posted ignorantly by those you have thought should understand engines (lol) re egts etc are ALL related to the valve spring vs back pressure. There is no coincidence that the cars which had this were agu headed units.. and therefore without the k04 exhaust valve spring setup (aka the additional shim to increase seat pressure) -

EGTs remain best in class with the chinafold, bar none. (and yes I've run a few v4s thru here and have data showing Actual results)
There's a reason the B5 chinafold was chosen by Track Driver Magazine for their Race TT, Reliability and performance gains.. Gen1 manifold on that one. Working Fine. Go figure! You believe the crap you get fed from your circle of ignorance if you wish. Your loss.

I offered free updates to my manis to my customer as once I found it wasn't as good as it could be on every install, I wanted it rectified which I have done months ago. I dont see anything from relentless offering free updates or fixes for their v1 v2 v3 v4 manifolds for all their unhappy customers of cracked ones........

and.... 372bhp STILL the highest k04 hybrid on the lupo as a "properly" built assembly of parts by me. (its more than any single component which goes to achieve this, but the correct mix of well thought through parts delivering a very nice end result. Daily driven for MrsB. Zero problem. Built by a "Tuner".
 
My misfire wasn't on the track. It had been fine for several months of very hard driving, and a previous trackday, prior to doing the trackday in question.

The car was working faultlessly, but it would appear the meth nozzle had become blocked some how, so I was giving the car hell, thinking I had nice cool AIT's, but in fact it was roasting hot. At the time I believed this is what caused the issue that gave me the missfire. It was fine driving, but idled a bit "puttery". I changed the plugs and coikpacks thinking it was those, but it wasn't. Looking back, I think it was actually a dead hydraulic lifter that caused it...but never mind, I'm upgrading now, lol. I had NO issues on track. It was only when I came in after the last session I noticed it was idling strangely.

...helps to know all the facts doesn't it Bill?! ;)
 
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george_seamons said:
Not really, no. Bill is just making excuses for his manifold being a flop, but then can't accept that it was a flop by his actions of recalling all of the first batch of manifolds to modify them.

Irrespective of that, 400bhp seems to be the accepted limit for the stock valves. Anything close to, or above this, and it is recommended that inconel exhaust valves are fitted.
The back pressure produced by a K04 hybrid (which won't get you 400bhp...which kinda defeats the object of mentioning it in the converstation), causes the valves to suffer from valve float...this is overcome by fitting stronger springs. If you are replacing the valves, you may as well replace the springs too.
Click to expand...

Manifold not a flop, a massive PIA for me for sure, on finding and FIXING the >6500rpm torque fall off in the backdrop of being ripped to shreds by Fanboys from a bitter and twisted competitor "mapper" on facebook.

oh look a 400+bhp K04 hybrid on a stroker 20v... 2bar @ play
Anything else you would like to misinform readers for mr Seamons??
DynoIT%20-%20k04-400hybrid.jpg
 
george_seamons said:
My misfire wasn't on the track. It had been fine for several months prior to doing the trackday.

The car was working faultlessly, but it would appear the meth nozzle had become blocked some how, so I was giving the car hell, thinking I had nice cool AIT's, but in fact it was roasting hot. I believe this is what caused the issue that gave me the missfire. It was fine driving, but idled a bit "puttery". I changed the plugs and coikpacks thinking it was those, but it wasn't. Looking back, I think it was actually a dead hydraulic lifter that caused it...but never mind, I'm upgrading now, lol. I had NO issues on track. It was only when I came in after the last session I noticed it was idling strangely.

...helps to know all the facts doesn't it Bill?! ;)
Click to expand...

It does, but sadly only "selected" highlights get mentioned and the Reality gets buried does'nt it George..
 
If you come bowling in being a sarcastic arrogant bitter old man, you will get burnt...as you have done.

The exact same thing could have happened with your manifold, it was nothing to do with the engine build or mapping, it was a mechanical failure.

At the end of the day, I had issues with your manifold that I didn't with the v4. As the consumer, I want the best I can out of the product I have built and taken to be mapped. Your manifold didn't do that for me, so I got rid of it.

I have apologised for the grief it caused, and I do genuinely feel bad about it...but doing stuff like this doesn't do you any favours.

I wasn't the one that brought it up, that was all your own doing. Rather than turning this into a bitching thread or a "witch hunt" (which may I remind you again, you brought up in this thread, nobody had mentioned it), if you have a problem with me, I would suggest you PM me. I'll give you my number if you really want it, because you obviously have an issue with me.
 
george_seamons said:
If you come bowling in being a sarcastic arrogant bitter old man, you will get burnt...as you have done.

The exact same thing could have happened with your manifold, it was nothing to do with the engine.

At the end of the day, I had issues with your manifold that I didn't with the v4. As the consumer, I want the best I can out of the product I have built and taken to be mapped. Your manifold didn't do that for me, so I got rid of it.

I have apologised for the grief it caused, and I do genuinely feel bad about it...but doing stuff like

I wasn't the one that brought it up, that was all your own doing.
Click to expand...
Arrogant I am not. tolerant of fools and idiots who talk crap I am not.
Old man... yea getting older. no avoiding it. But with age comes Experience in the VAG tuning scene for 25+ years now.
Bitter towards one particular cnut yep.

Whatever makes you happy George

I am very happy with the mani, works fine, best in class against ALL the competition..
Bumpy start for sure on its development evolution and some vicious crap from many bitter/twisted folks on the joke that is FB and the fanboy scene which resides there.
Its not for you to apologise, but those others who went on a mission thereafter, and the sad reflection on THEM as to the nonsense they have posted ever since, again and again and again.. Some folks need to get a life and get out more as opposed living their lives on FB.. It was a very VERY poor reflection on them, being a one sided Rant initiated from the same bitter and twisted individual.

You have a good day now..
 
**** me lads this is embarrassing.
 
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