Bored with S3 already !!!

[noslojo]

Hi,

Had my S3 for about a year now - previously had a Corrado 16v and while it wasn't the fasted car out there it was well modded (imho) and handled superbly and therefore a joy to drive at all times. Got the S3 as needed room for the kids in the back (didn't want a bimmer and what else is there that's german for £15k at the time).
So I'm now in the predicament of being bored with the S3 as it's not a great drive - poor steering feel, not nearly as chuckable and generally more dificult to enjoy. It's also a very understated car where as my Corrado looked fab and stood out for what I see as the right reasons.

So what to do ???

I've considered changing for a Porsche 996 but running costs and reliability issues would probably make it too expensive. A 968 is too old.

The only other option is modding the S3 so do the brakes, wheels and suspension - it's already remapped.
I've noticed Ess_Three (Glen it's Kev Finlay here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif) did a lot of work in these areas with great benefits. I was looking at this but with coilovers instead of the Bilsteins.
Also really want more power 270bhp ain't enough if I do all the rest so what's the options? And are there any major issues ?

Your opinions are appreciated floks

cheers

 

[ImS3ola]

If you're looking at 996s you must have at least a £27k + budget for a car. To get the S3 over 270 bhp and the handling you want is going to cost a lot of money that you won't recoup come resale. I'd definitely sell the S3 and get something else, RS4 or M3 maybe?

 

[Ryanc]

Get another car,evo 9 with 300 pack with a few mods to 360bhp ,not alot will come close.

 

[noslojo]

[ QUOTE ]
Get another car,evo 9 with 300 pack with a few mods to 360bhp ,not alot will come close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't do ricers I'm afraid as they may be quick but they rattle like hell and are forever needing fixed (in general) - I want something German and with a bit of class that is a great drive. Too much to ask ???

 

[imported_Strider81]

with ur budget what else cud u get?

how bout an rs6!

the s3 isnt an ideal family car anyway so not the most ideal upgrade from the carrado.

 

[noslojo]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're looking at 996s you must have at least a £27k + budget for a car. To get the S3 over 270 bhp and the handling you want is going to cost a lot of money that you won't recoup come resale. I'd definitely sell the S3 and get something else, RS4 or M3 maybe?

[/ QUOTE ]

RS4 don't do it for me as it's too grown up lookin' and my mate just sold his M3 for 993 and he was losing £500 a month in depreciation plus the cost of his finance ! There's the very high running costs and reliability issues too and in most colours it looks pretty much like any other bimmer too. Thanks for the input though guys keep it coming.

Maybe going back to an immaculate 968 could be an option as they are very cheap compared to the other options but only have 240bhp but if the car handles well then I can put up with it being a bit slower. For me it's about driving and enjoying the carby making the most of it - not out and out performance.
Maybe it's just me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Ryanc]

968 are agricutural now,my folks have one.
bmw m3 csl or 996 gt3 (early one)

 

[rickquattro]

I thought theres an RS6+ at Edinburgh Audi....spotted when I picked my car up today...had a double take but not a real close look..

 

[AndyMac]

Your requirements seem totally at odds with each other.
Not about out & out performance, but 270bhp isn't enough?
Want something classy, but S3 is too understated & RS4 too grown up
Has to be German but M3 depreciation is too much & Porsche running costs too high.
I'd say you've just run out of options, there aren't too many German cars with 300+bhp and MaxPower styling, I guess it has to be a Merc SLR - go on it's the obvious next step from Corrado then S3!

 

[noslojo]

[ QUOTE ]
Your requirements seem totally at odds with each other.
Not about out & out performance, but 270bhp isn't enough?
Want something classy, but S3 is too understated & RS4 too grown up
Has to be German but M3 depreciation is too much & Porsche running costs too high.
I'd say you've just run out of options, there aren't too many German cars with 300+bhp and MaxPower styling, I guess it has to be a Merc SLR - go on it's the obvious next step from Corrado then S3!

[/ QUOTE ]

What I said was that if I do the brakes/suspension and wheels THEN 270 bhp wouldn't be enough!

Didn't mention anything about Max Power styling but want something a bit more distinctive in the same way as the Corrado - it stood out as there was nothing quite like it - looks wise it's not just a slightly wider 3 series (M3), A3 (S3) or A4(S4/RS4). German cars are typically more classy than there equivalents from other countries but I need something a bit distinctive too.

For now an S3 is a cheap car to run but when also you have to take into account depreciation of £500 per month (M3) or the silly money in running costs for many Porsches then it makes the difference between being able to just buy a car and being able to buy and run that car.

As for it being german, thats because i like the solidity and reliability of them - don't care much for tinny jap or french stuff.

For my sins I still love the look of a TT but again it's not and never will be a drivers car - I tried one or two when looking at the S3 but they weren't right at all - couldn't believe they were quite so different from the mechanically similar S3.

I realise it initially looks like a load of contradictions but it's more that I'm just a really fussy bar steward.
I only see the current options as an M3 or Porsche as they are the most driver orientated (again unlike an SLR) but both of those have their problems for the age of car I'm after - a 993 too old and expensive, 993/boxster engine issues).

I think it's a case of sticking with what I have and initially doing the coilovers, adjustable rear arms for the geometry setup and light wheels (mmmm BBS) to see if it brings the handling and steering up to scratch (as Glen reported some very good results). If that's not satisfying me then at least most of it can be sold so the car can be put back to standard should I sell it.

Just wanted to know your opinions though and they are appreciated whether good or bad /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[AndyMac]

Hey I wasn't criticising your requirements, each one is perfectly valid.
I was just pointing out that the perfect car does not exist, and can never exist as the criteria you want (and most people want) are totally at odds with each other.
The closest you'd get is a 350z with £200 of Dynamat and a retrofit Audi interior (oh and some back seats).
It's all about compromise.
Always makes me laugh when Top Gear criticises Audi's for their boring/numb/safe driving experience (especially the TT), when they fail to realise that that is exactly what most Audi drivers want (present company excluded). Audi drivers don't give a toss what the track experience is like as ther Audi will only ever see the car park at Thruxton.
This is a market that spends 90% of its time on motorways, they don't want to be "excited" by the back end flipping out when they have to dive into the middle lane to avoid some tw@t (usually in a beemer) who's just barged in front of them. They also want something different but not too different, and something powerful but doesn't scream powerful. In the unlikely event they do track days they don't use their day car.
And they're willing to pay a premium for all of the above, which is why Audi's don't suffer such huge depreciation as some marques.
Unfortunately you can't have it all.
Still don't quite understand why 270bhp is not enough once you've sorted the suspension/brakes/handling? 300bhp seems to be enough for an Evo which is arguably the safest handling/braking car on the market for normal money.

 

[AL_B]

Sell it then.

But I don't think you appreciate what a great all round car the S3 is.

Even in its standard form, for all round general driving, including fast stuff, it's not too bad. Yes, it understeers, but once you've adapted your driving to it, you can live with it. If you are unhappy, follow Glen's H&R + Bilstein + Nuespeed suspension mods.

But look what you are driving, and this is why I haven't sold mine (dispite it's problems).....it's classy, it still looks good, the interior quality is still up there with the best (some would argue better than the new A3), and the performance of a 225 is still just about with it. Ok, it's not an M3 or S4, but what are you after exactly. The S3 sounds like it's not what you are after.

270bhp isn't enough?! Tell that to Glen and DavidR. Match 270 bhp with sorted suspension...I'll let David tell you how many car's he has shocked on the track.

At the end of the day, the S3 (in standard form) is not the best handling car on the planet, nor is it the fastest. If you were after such a thing, then you should have bought a Subaru or Evo. We all know that.

But if you were after a reasonably quick all rounder with top class interior, the practicality of 4 seats and a hatch, then the S3 was the car. Between 1999 and 2003.

We are now in 2005 and things have moved on.

AL

 

[imported_bmx]

[quote

For my sins I still love the look of a TT but again it's not and never will be a drivers car - I tried one or two when looking at the S3 but they weren't right at all - couldn't believe they were quite so different from the mechanically similar S3.


[/ QUOTE ]

why for your sins?

i recently went in my mates s3 and it handles and drives like a big old bus compared to my TT. in stock form, both cars arnt as good in the handling department as a corrado, a set of r32 arbs sorts both cars out quite well, better than a corrado after

 

[Rev-head]

This is my money saving method ,buy a clapped out motor for driving through the week and drive the S3 at the weekends by the time Saturday comes it a great car to drive all the time ,,Works for me....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cheers

 

[Ess_Three]

[ QUOTE ]

i recently went in my mates s3 and it handles and drives like a big old bus compared to my TT.


[/ QUOTE ]

I find it hard to believe that anyone who actually has any feel for a cars chassis performance would ever suggest a standard TT drives better than a standard S3.

The TTs inferior sized ARBs and additional weight at the rear make for a more numb chassis...and a more understeering drive.

There is no way round that...it's just simple physics.

I had half a day in both, back to back before deciding between a loaded S3 or a standar TT...and I was way faster everywhere on the road in the S3...the chassis isn't great...but it's better than a standard TT.

Certainly to me...


[ QUOTE ]

in stock form, both cars arnt as good in the handling department as a corrado,


[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I beg to differ...
Although the Corrado felt far better to drive (especially the VR6) the S3 WAS faster point to point...especially in the wet...at least that was how I proved it against Corrado VR6 owning mates.
The S3 rolled more and felt softer...but the grip was more exploitable..and hence the faster car round the twisties.

I guess this comes down to perception of handling...sure, it didn't feel as composed...but on the road, it proved otherwise.


[ QUOTE ]

a set of r32 arbs sorts both cars out quite well, better than a corrado after

[/ QUOTE ]

And again, I dissagree..
R32 ARBs work well...but the main problem with the TT/S3 standard is the damping...it's too weak. Far to soft on bump and hopelessly so on rebound.
Sort the damping out and you will have a far more capable car point to point than one with standard damping and R32 ARBs...

The ideal is dampers and ARBs...although, in my opinion, there are better combinations to the R32 set up.

I personally believe the R32 front (I think it's the front...trying to remember!) is slightly too large for the S3...but as always, there's more than one way to skin a cat!

 

[Ess_Three]

Kev,

You can sort an S3...sort tha brakes, suspension, power delivery etc and have a VERY capable car...a very fast car in all circumstances...and a very easy car to drive and exploit to the full...which is where my S3 ended up.
It's still as quick point to point as anything else I've driven...and soooo easy top drive...
You can add steering feel, add feedback etc...but at the end of the day it is always an S3....which is a good and bad thing.

I still love my old S3 and each time I see it I detest the man who got me drunk and made a deal to buy it at a silly cheap price! (at least that's my side of the story...and it makes me feel better to remember it that way!)

I'd have it back tomorrow...if not sooner.

But...it's still an S3 and for as quick as it is, it doesn't excite, or press the buttons at a molecular level that something like a 911 does.
Of that, David and I are agreed.

As an everyday car, which does everything...a well sorted S3 is perfect...the looks, the interior, the handling and the go...

As for making the hairs on your neck stand on end...sot so much.
I get more of a sense of thrill starting the 911 than driving the S3 for an hour...but the two are incomparable in reality.

That S3 was the best car I've owned...it was as near perfect as any car I've owned.

But it doesn't thrill...
The 911 is a nightmare...it's expensive, grounds out a lot, has no room in it, is sometimes too obvious etc...but it presses buttons the S3 could only dream of.

Ideally I'd have both...but that's just not possible...I don't have the cash!


A happy medium could probably be found...
How about one of these:
968 Sport (old..but great)
M3 (get over the badge - if you can!)
M5 (same as above)
R32 (great car...great engine!)
Alfa GT
Honda Integra Type-R (fantastic drivers car...)
New Golf GTI (brilliant chassis!)

It's difficult to say...the S3 is pretty complete when tweaked...as for whether it's complete enough to thrill, I don't know.

It is complete enough to go against a 911 in the thrill stakes? No...but there is nothing else available that does what the 911 does.

 

[TDI-line]

Probably worth having a test drive in some of the cars the Ess_3 sugested.

The new GTI is outstanding and a superb drive, with excellent feel of steering, and is virtually on par with my old R32.

 

[Banwell]

Wait, save your money and get the new S3 if it ever comes out.

 

[Ess_Three]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait, save your money and get the new S3 if it ever comes out.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what if the new S3 (if it ever arrives) is as dull to drive as the last shape S3?

Recent S and RS models suggest this will be the case...however, the new RS4 does look like it'll break with tradition and actually offer a driving expreience.

The rumoured new S3 could be a huge hit...or a huge missed opportunity...which will it be?

...and do you wait, to be potentially disapointed?

 

[Ryanc]

2006 is rumoured for the new s3,if it ever appears.

 

[noslojo]

Thanks for all the replies (and non were taken as being personal or critical - I asked for your opinions afterall).

Not going to make any hasty decisions but just weigh everything up and see how it goes. I couldn't do the 996 until next year anyway hence the reason I'm trying to hatch a plan to save for if needed.

I think if I went down the road of keeping the S3 then I would look at doing the suspension.brakes and wheels first then try to see if there's any options on changing the looks - I don't mean Max P stylee but more what AMG would do with a Merc sort of idea.

This all brings a couple of questions:

Can 993 Turbo wheels fit an S3 - know you get adapters but can you fit 8.5" fronts and 10" wide rears ?
I want geuine Porsche wheels as they are light (also I don't do copy anything)

Also what brqaking options are there ? Again you can probably get Porsche stuff but can you buy kits and what about the Seat brembo stuff does that work ?

Lastly anyone recommend anywhere to getstyling stuff for an S3 (remember though subtle mods not Max P)

Just to give you an idea here's a pic of my old Corrado

Thanks again for any opinions (good or bad)

 

[jojo]

You can get hub adaptors to get Genuine Porker wheels to fit, but it will be best to have 4 X front whels - 8.5" all round - if you don't want catching and your handling ruined. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

 

[Ess_Three]

[ QUOTE ]

Can 993 Turbo wheels fit an S3 - know you get adapters but can you fit 8.5" fronts and 10" wide rears ?


[/ QUOTE ]

10" rears? you've got to be kidding...that'll undo any work you do on the suspension.

Also, why the hell fit 10" wide rears on a prediminantly FWD car?

Even 8.5" wide is verging on too wide...it'll kill the chassis.

I'd opt for a set of 8" wide, single or multi-piece lightweight wheel from one of the better respected manufacturers...that way you'll get strength and less unsprung weight.


[ QUOTE ]

I want geuine Porsche wheels as they are light (also I don't do copy anything)


[/ QUOTE ]

You are winding me up!

You want light wheels but then run them with adaptors? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
You'd be better off with a proper S3 designed (width and offset) BBS or Sportec wheel...just as light, one less weakness and better handling.


[ QUOTE ]

Also what brqaking options are there ? Again you can probably get Porsche stuff but can you buy kits and what about the Seat brembo stuff does that work ?


[/ QUOTE ]

The Brembo kit from the SEAT Leon Cupra R is all anyone ever needs on an S3.
Rears are just fine with a friction material change....they do next to no work anyway and the standard balance allows you to trail brake through corners to get the rear into play.

Sort out the friction material and you have brakes that defy belief.

Of course, if you NEED to have Porsche written on the Brembo callipers, spend more...you'll get more pose factor / bling points for sure...but better braking, I think not.

Jim can do the Brembo kit at a decent price...change the pads to Ferodo DS2550s and wait for the blood vesells in your eyes to start bursting under braking.

Doesn't say Porsche though...so must be inferior. eh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


[ QUOTE ]

Thanks again for any opinions (good or bad)

[/ QUOTE ]

My opinions, for what they are worth, involve spending decent money on stuff that actually adds to the driving experience, and saving it on crap that does nothing.

You can change the springs and dampers, ARBs, suspension settings and make the S3 brilliant to drive.
Add Brembo's and decent pads to outbrake mose cars...
An FMIC, Re-map (you already have) and a few more choice bits to make decent power and torque...
...and end up with a brilliant combination...a chassis that will take the power all day long and an engine that can't overcome the chassis...so you can use full power, all the time, in all weathers, to full effect. A pretty good set up, if you ask me.

I also wouldn't fit coilovers.
Coilovers are great for pose factor points...but noisy and hard to get set up correctly - if they are fully adjustable.
The amount of cars I've set up that have had badly adjusted coilovers that have killed the car, is unbelievable!
Decent springs and dampers that give perfect damping and ride height are hard to come by...but as it happens, the H&R springs / Bilstein dampers are exactly that - perfect.
I couldn't have achieved better control with a year of fiddling with coilovers...

They just work...straight out of the box. I'd go for a proven set-up and save time and effort.

 

[amb276s3]

Ess, do the H&R springs / Bilstein dampers lower and make the ride firmer, as i think the factory ride comfort is just about bearable and i wouldn't want to lower the car at all, i have fitted H&R front and rear arb's and they seem to have improved handling without losing any comfort, any thoughts?

 

[noslojo]

I think I need to explain myself a bit more when I ask questions ! First I would never consider 10" wide wheels for the S3 but I was asking as I could only find sets of genuine Porsche 993 Turbo wheels with 8.5" fronts and 10" rears.
If I am able to get a set of 4, 8-8.5" wheels then that would be dandy for the looks but does the spacers add lot of extra weight - not sure if they are alloy or steel you see.

However having checked out the other wheels from BBS (can't afford the LMs at £2400) and Sportec then I reckon the Sportec would deinitely do the biz and like you say Glen they are the right size and width for the S3. I just had this idea of doing a Porsche theme on the S3 as but also ensuring that I was still looking after the dynamics too so I get best of both worlds - you should remember how I like my cars to look good as well as go properly. Anyway that's not going viable so I'll think about the other options.

When I say I don't do copies that was refering to anything such as would buy copy wheels or buy brakes to look like something else - ie it's good to hear that the SEAT brembos are ideal for the job as they aren't that expensive and I wouldn't be putting a PORSCHE badge on them either - they are not "Big Reds" and I'm not going to try and make them look like that. TBH I would rather they were black as I don't like badges all over things.

Anyway back to the suject in hand - I have driven Jims S3 and he has the Bilsteins but think he has Eibach springs - can you remember Glen ? I thought it was comfortable but actually a bit too much so and it rolled more than standard too. I'll have to ask him as I reckon I need to the the ARB(s) to get the car cornering much flatter.

Well I've got a few pointers from this so I just need the flippin money to get started but at least Jim at Star P ensures I don't pay the full price as I do a fair bit of work for him /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

cheers all

 

[Ess_Three]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I need to explain myself a bit more when I ask questions ! First I would never consider 10" wide wheels for the S3 but I was asking as I could only find sets of genuine Porsche 993 Turbo wheels with 8.5" fronts and 10" rears.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh...more sensible!

[ QUOTE ]

If I am able to get a set of 4, 8-8.5" wheels then that would be dandy for the looks but does the spacers add lot of extra weight - not sure if they are alloy or steel you see.


[/ QUOTE ]

Adaptors don't add Kgs...but with adaptors, wheel bolts, adaptor bolts added to lightweight (and expensive) wheels which still may not be the best offset, aren't you kind of defeating the point of fitting light wheels?

Surely better to fit wheels designed from the outset to be strong and light, and fit the S3s body, with a decent offset to improve the handling.

Also, personally, the way I drive...I refuse to add adaptors which MAY add a weakness...surely adaptors bolted to the hub and wheel bolts threaded into (in may cases) alloy adaptors, are weaker than the standard means of fixing the wheels on?
I'm not having that on my car...

More weight and less strength...if that's not a 'bling' mod, I don't know what is!!


[ QUOTE ]

However having checked out the other wheels from BBS (can't afford the LMs at £2400) and Sportec then I reckon the Sportec would deinitely do the biz and like you say Glen they are the right size and width for the S3.


[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed...
Personally, I'm not a fan of LMs...they'll just corrode in Scotland!

I'd have a decent set of lightweight single piece wheels (or maybe 2 piece)...BBS CH/RX/RX2 etc...Sportec, OZ Superlegera, etc..


[ QUOTE ]

it's good to hear that the SEAT brembos are ideal for the job as they aren't that expensive and I wouldn't be putting a PORSCHE badge on them either - they are not "Big Reds" and I'm not going to try and make them look like that.


[/ QUOTE ]

They'll do everything you'll ever need of them...
And cheap...relatively!

A few of my thoughts on Big Reds:
If Big Reds were that good...wouldn't Porsche still be using them?
Are they? No...
Are they still using multi-piece discs with steel rotors? No...

So, smaller, lighter, better optimised brake callipers and single piece discs are good enough for current Porsches...they are good enough for an S3!

The Brembo kit is a bargain...


[ QUOTE ]

Anyway back to the suject in hand - I have driven Jims S3 and he has the Bilsteins but think he has Eibach springs - can you remember Glen ?


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was Bilsteins kit...Bilstein springs and dampers...I may be wrong though!


[ QUOTE ]

I thought it was comfortable but actually a bit too much so and it rolled more than standard too.


[/ QUOTE ]

Give over!
There is no way that car rolled more than standard when I drove it!
It is far flatter and more composed...at least it was....that's why I ordered the Bilsteins from Jim - the strength od the drive in his S3!


[ QUOTE ]

I'll have to ask him as I reckon I need to the the ARB(s) to get the car cornering much flatter.


[/ QUOTE ]

True...
ARBs will finish the job that decent springs and dampers start.

You'll need to go pretty aggressive on the set-up to get the best out of it though...


[ QUOTE ]

Well I've got a few pointers from this so I just need the flippin money to get started

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody said it was going to be cheap...

...and you'll not get your money back on the bits.

..and it'll still not thrill like a proper sportscar...but it will be impressive and effective!

 

[DuncS3]

[ QUOTE ]
Ess, do the H&R springs / Bilstein dampers lower and make the ride firmer, as i think the factory ride comfort is just about bearable and i wouldn't want to lower the car at all, i have fitted H&R front and rear arb's and they seem to have improved handling without losing any comfort, any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Defenitely yes and yes (lower and firmer). if you find standard just about bearable I dont think changing the suspension will be a good choice.