S4 with VR6 big turbo (I want!!)..

saw this the other day.
I was looking at one of their Fluidampers but they don't fit the 058 block.
 
US s4's didnt get a different rear bumper to A4's hence euro bumpers fetch such a premium over there, so im gonna say that it is an S4 with a VR6 engine, like the video says :)

034 motorsport have one aswell, and sell a bell housing conversion plate to fit a VR6 engine into your own S4 aswell :)
http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?products_id=665
 
I'm sorry... but why fit a VR6 to your S4...? Surely the standard V6 twin turbo can outpace a VR6 in standard form...?
 
standard yes, but you fit a VR6 so you can slap a stonking great single turbo on the side of it for huge power. VR6 turbos have had much more in the way of engine development than the 2.7tt, much easier to get big power from them
 
I'd imagine not having to remove the engine to swap the turbo would be a big bonus too.
 
I am all for ease of use and in situ engine development,
(Its the reason I went for the 1.8t vs the S4 (plus being of a Scottish persuasion I am tighter than a duck's ****!)

but a stock S4/rs4 lump can take waaay more abuse out of the box without being built/rebuilt than a stock VR6 block.

you start looking at 400bhp + on a VR6 lump and you can cost in rods, pistons, fully rebuilt oversized head and some serious hardware.

standard S4/RS4 blocks knock out 450-500 all day long before requiring bottom end components
 
I know of a couple of RS4 engines which run around the 600bhp+ on standard block and heads!!
 
550 ftlbs is the accepted threshold before you start bending rods.
foolish not to swap them.

lots of 1.8t's running over 350ftlbs but it is very risky
 
Or just limit the torque with the map...

550lbft at 7000rpm is 733hp.

You just need a turbo big enough to hold onto the boost until 7k, and map the engine to ensure it doesnt exceed 550lbft.

You say 350 is risky on a 1.8T, but thats 87lbft per rod, compared with 91lbft/rod or the 550 on the S4...

Are the rods on the 1.8T worse than the S4 items?
 
550lbft at 7000rpm is 733hp.

how do you figure?
I have seen dynos of K04'd motors producing a high of 300+ ftlbs with power peaking at 290ish.

550ftlbs on a twin turboed V6 could produce power as low as 500bhp
easy to get torque higher than power.
check the spike on this APR S4. similar spike on a curve of a 1.8t could kill it that low down the rev range
apr_rs4_race_small.jpg



You say 350 is risky on a 1.8T, but thats 87lbft per rod, compared with 91lbft/rod or the 550 on the S4...

Are the rods on the 1.8T worse than the S4 items?

no, if I am correct they are virtually identical. (if not completely so)
But you have a totally different pulse cycle and dynamic to the V6 vs. I4 rotating assembly.
I don't think it is as simple as dividing by four or six.
Its the reason it is usually the rod in cyl 2 or 3 that shits itself on a KO4 (or similar) maxed out 1.8t producing spikey torque over 300+.
 
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i meant if you can hold the 550lbft until 7000rpm you've just made 733hp.

power = torque * RPM / constant

constant = 5252 for lbft and bhp


What i'm saying is that for big power on stock rods all you need to do is map the engine to ensure the torque doesnt exceed 550lbft.

If the boost curve etc is carefully controlled and the turbos are large enough, you can have an engine that develops exactly 550lbft from it coming on boost until the red line with the correct mapping.

Quite similar how audi control the torque on the V10 TFSI in the RS6 (probably to protect the transmission), it makes a constant 650nm from 1500 to 6250rpm, and quite a few of their modern engines do the same.
 
I know there is a rough calculation that exists to guestimate power from torque but it is not accurate at all.

i fixed the dyno sheet so you can see it now. that spike at 3000rpm is horrible in MAP terms/
its not so much the figure at the top of the curve than the way it arrives at that figure.
its the reason 350ftlbs from a 50trim or 2871 turbo can be run all day on a stock 1.8t but try to run the same numbers at high boost from a Ko4'd Gti and you will ventilate the block sooner rather than later.

the larger turbo is well within it's effeciency curve and the power delivery is smooth and steady.
the smaller turbo is outside its efficiency curve and delivers spikes of torque which on an effectively 2 pulse 4 cylinder engine is going to break something.

yes you can restrict torque with the map but you are basically creating something that is working against itself. overfuelling or boost leaking to keep a figure down.

but to get back on topic my point was the VR6 needs lots of internal hardware to support the same levels of power the 2.7 V6 can achieve comfortably on stock internals.
 
Erm, its a mathematical formula mate, not a guestimate.

HP = LBFT * RPM / 5252

Thats physics. If you have either of HP, LBFT for any given RPM you can calculate the other value.
Take your power plot above and run the numbers and you'll see what i mean. 3500rpm for example its making 360lbft. if we do 360 * 3500 /5252 we get 239.9, which matches what the graph shows.

I dont see why restricting the torque would require overfuelling or leaking boost?

You control the boost level, with the N75 valve just like normal, to remove the torque spikes.
Like this:
http://www.jesperdk.com/etomic/powercurve.jpeg

Audi doesnt produce that by overfuelling, they control the boost level, to produce the desired torque map. If they went full boost at 2000rpm, you'd get a huge spike. Instead they peg the torque at 550nm (in that example) to protect the transmission.

Proper mapping can produce a result like that with any turbocharged engine, by limiting the boost at lower revs, then ramping it up as the VE drops as the revs increase.

The reason a 2871r doesnt produce the same dangerous torque spikes, is because it spools further up the rev range.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the stock internals. I'm agreeing, and saying that even with a torque limit of 550lbft, if you have a well crafted map and a turbo capable of it, you can make 700+ hp.


A mate of mine is building a Volvo T5 engine for his locost. The torque limit on those is around 300lbft and the rods are a particular weak point. Hes aiming for 300lbft from when the engine comes on boost at 3000rpm until the rev limit of 7000, giving him 400hp. Hes specced up a 400hp turbo, and will be using some mappable engine management to control the boost using something like an N75 valve, with low boost coming in at 3000rpm, and scaling up as the revs climb to keep the motor producing 300lbft all the way thru the revs.
 

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