Steering in Performace modes

[Mike.46]

As the title suggets and a little background first.
I drove the Golf 8R with magna diff and complained on the VWROC forum that I couldnt find the switch to turn the ESC into either 'Sport' or 'Off' I found the car holding back and eventually saw the TC/ESC light flashing at me, I got a fair few negative comments like 'shouldnt be driving like that on the road' 'you must be driving like a t*at' and 'no probelm here mate 'she' handles superb'

I eventually found out how to get to it and went back for a second demo drive (solo, no salesman/covid etc) and tried it with the ESC in both Sport and Off.
Wow, the car turned into a weapon and down the 'correct' road very little would hang onto it's shirt tails, just precise and easy.

So, onto the (my) RS3, i'm just starting to push it harder, WTF is the steering trying to do when Dynamic is selected in Performance and Individual modes? I'm sure it's going to put a few into the boonies, I also watched TR Hamza doing a back to back with Golf 8R and describing the RS3 like it's had too much caffeine and th Golf as the easier car to just jump in and push hard.


I selected the steering into 'Balanced' mode which seemed to help but ran out of road before I was 100% sure and the trip back was a no no performance wise as I had a brand new motorcycle tank in the boot which I didn’t want banging around.

My plan was to try Balanced steering and then knock the ESC to either Sport or Off to see what is causing this corner exit fidgeting, any idea's out there ?

 

[RSt3ve]

I've not put my finger on it yet either, it almost feels like the car is going through a camber change mid corner requiring a slight steering correction. I've not experienced it enough to see if it's throttle application related yet (magic diff).

I've not driven for two weeks due to a covid induced inner ear/balance issue so I'm keen to experiment more soon/see what other conclusions are made. Certainly feels a bit squirrelly when pushed.

 

[Mike.46]

Yes, feels as if the car is tram lining or folowing over banding, I think it's only throttle related and only when i'm pretty hard on the throttle, It certainly feels better with the steering 'not' in Dynamic mode but that just might be dulling my response to the twitching, I need to try it with the ESC set to 'Sport' or even 'Off' It feels like a combination of too many cooks in the kitchen, as in over sensitive steering, Magna diff and ESC all working overtime and maybe against each other?

 

[Mike.46]

PS: I'll just add that Joe Achilies never mentioned in what I thought was a good review, but he did say he had all the driver aids 'Off' and I doubt that ANY of the other Youtubers have done much more than squirted the car in a straight line (It was also Joe Achilies that put a stop to the 'feedback' I was getting on the VWROC forum when he drove the Golf 8R and said 'The first thing you need to do is switch the ESC Off as it's far too intrusive even for normal road driving'')

 

[8YARWY]

As the title suggets and a little background first.
I drove the Golf 8R with magna diff and complained on the VWROC forum that I couldnt find the switch to turn the ESC into either 'Sport' or 'Off' I found the car holding back and eventually saw the TC/ESC light flashing at me, I got a fair few negative comments like 'shouldnt be driving like that on the road' 'you must be driving like a t*at' and 'no probelm here mate 'she' handles superb'

I eventually found out how to get to it and went back for a second demo drive (solo, no salesman/covid etc) and tried it with the ESC in both Sport and Off.
Wow, the car turned into a weapon and down the 'correct' road very little would hang onto it's shirt tails, just precise and easy.

So, onto the (my) RS3, i'm just starting to push it harder, WTF is the steering trying to do when Dynamic is selected in Performance and Individual modes? I'm sure it's going to put a few into the boonies, I also watched TR Hamza doing a back to back with Golf 8R and describing the RS3 like it's had too much caffeine and th Golf as the easier car to just jump in and push hard.


I selected the steering into 'Balanced' mode which seemed to help but ran out of road before I was 100% sure and the trip back was a no no performance wise as I had a brand new motorcycle tank in the boot which I didn’t want banging around.

My plan was to try Balanced steering and then knock the ESC to either Sport or Off to see what is causing this corner exit fidgeting, any idea's out there ?

I think the new RS3 is one of those cars where owners are going to have to learn it’s particular set of skills, it is unlike any Audi RS product that’s gone before really……..

I actually am not that keen on this generations engine, the handling on the other hand is leagues ahead of anything that’s been before.


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[Mike.46]

I think the new RS3 is one of those cars where owners are going to have to learn it’s particular set of skills, it is unlike any Audi RS product that’s gone before really……..

I actually am not that keen on this generations engine, the handling on the other hand is leagues ahead of anything that’s been before.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But it is the same set up as Golf 8R and that doesnt do all the twitchy corner exit stuff, Golf 8R just exits corners in a neutral to marginally oversteer when pushed v hard,

i'm sure there are enough alterations available on the two performance modes to sort it out, it's just a bit twitchy and not precise on the Factory settings,

I would hate to come around a tightish country road corner and be faced with something like a large tractor coming towards me, i'm sure it would be a very uneasy moment trying to thread the car through a tight gap

 

[8YARWY]

But it is the same set up as Golf 8R and that doesnt do all the twitchy corner exit stuff, Golf 8R just exits corners in a neutral to marginally oversteer when pushed v hard,

i'm sure there are enough alterations available on the two performance modes to sort it out, it's just a bit twitchy and not precise on the Factory settings,

I would hate to come around a tightish country road corner and be faced with something like a large tractor coming towards me, i'm sure it would be a very uneasy moment trying to thread the car through a tight gap

You say ‘exact’ same set up……..

RS3 has more ‘over the nose’ weight to manage
I’ve seen a comment somewhere about it having more rear camber too (it’s the video with the Wizard when he’s listening to the motor engineering students point that out)

The Magna rear on the RS3 could well be set up slightly different to account for front weight and also the front to rear tyres being of different widths.


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[RSt3ve]

I've finally felt up to a drive today so headed out to some twisty c roads to have a legal play.
In RS Performance with ESC On and Off there is a noticeable shift in the line the car holds on turn in/lift off. Almost like the rear is shoving the front end forwards/sideways. It's not understeer though and feels like tramlining as described above.
With a more balanced throttle on turn in the effect seems to reduce slightly. So it could be weight transfer related (but not in a traditional lift-off oversteer way) but I'd need to do more experimenting in the different modes.
Given time I'm sure it'll become normal, just feels odd at the moment, but by being able to repeat it more consistently it'll help pinpoint it.

 

[Mike.46]

Interestingly I watched something yesterday where the reviewer said the first step the ESC adjusts/interfeers with is the rear diff, I think thats what I am feeling, I have no issue (yet) with the turn in or the set the car takes mid corner, it's just the fidgetting around when trying to exit the corner, we once had a customer with a 911Turbo2 that was frightening the c*ap out of him, He had replaced one rear tyre, same make/size but the circumference was 3/4 inch longer and when the diff locked (they locked 20% under power and up to 100% off power) the car dived all over the road faster than you could physically change lanes, the RS3 feels similar but not as nearly as drastic with smaller changes of direction that I have not asked for.

Hamza sums it up quite well from about 9:35 onwards

 

[RSt3ve]

I did a bit more playing at the weekend and there's two distinct cornering characteristics going on, both of which can be smoothed out. As mentioned in the video by Hamza, this car is no longer a point and shoot with your foot mashed to the floor. Which in my opinion is great, as it brings the driver back in to the mix for an all round more involved experience.

So the first is what can only be described as lift off understeer. On a smooth road, gentle curve at 50mph plus its easy to replicate this by lifting off the throttle. The car kind of drifts over its line by 200-300mm when the weight shifts. This is easy to smooth out by easing off rather than lifting off on turn in.

The second is the squiggle/pivot from mid corner to exit on a large % throttle. With stability on the car is fighting itself far too much so gets crossed up trying to send power all over the place. With stability in sport, the effect is lessened, but the car is still trying to fight itself front to rear, inside and outside. With stability off it would just light the tyres and drift out but this is untested. The only way to stop this is by learning the throttle limits for the given road condition.

As above, IMO, this gives the car more character, some may see it as a problem but the overall speed is phenomenal. Personally I'd much rather drive a car that keeps you on your toes and helps sharpen or refine skills. I'm not sure what the 8V RS3 was like, but the 8V S3 was unflappable which was pretty boring on reflection/comparison.

 

[rngDeadeye]

My M4 does something weird if I floor it at a roundabout to make sure granny next to me doesn't cut across and lift off and steer right. It makes my automatic oversteer brain work for no reason. I'm sure it's the LSD locking and unlocking.

I know it does it and you shouldn't really drive a corner like this anyway but it still feels odd.

 

[Mike.46]

I did a bit more playing at the weekend and there's two distinct cornering characteristics going on, both of which can be smoothed out. As mentioned in the video by Hamza, this car is no longer a point and shoot with your foot mashed to the floor. Which in my opinion is great, as it brings the driver back in to the mix for an all round more involved experience.

So the first is what can only be described as lift off understeer. On a smooth road, gentle curve at 50mph plus its easy to replicate this by lifting off the throttle. The car kind of drifts over its line by 200-300mm when the weight shifts. This is easy to smooth out by easing off rather than lifting off on turn in.

The second is the squiggle/pivot from mid corner to exit on a large % throttle. With stability on the car is fighting itself far too much so gets crossed up trying to send power all over the place. With stability in sport, the effect is lessened, but the car is still trying to fight itself front to rear, inside and outside. With stability off it would just light the tyres and drift out but this is untested. The only way to stop this is by learning the throttle limits for the given road condition.

As above, IMO, this gives the car more character, some may see it as a problem but the overall speed is phenomenal. Personally I'd much rather drive a car that keeps you on your toes and helps sharpen or refine skills. I'm not sure what the 8V RS3 was like, but the 8V S3 was unflappable which was pretty boring on reflection/comparison.

The lift off understeer is probably because the rear end is no longer trying to push you around the corner by applying more of the rearward power to the outer wheel ?

It probably isnt 'genuine' understeer as in the front losing grip?

The squiggly bit I agree is the ESC over re acting, both Sport and OFF help this as does having the steering calmed down as well, I have had the steering in Balanced but will also try Comfortable

 

[RSt3ve]

The lift off understeer is probably because the rear end is no longer trying to push you around the corner by applying more of the rearward power to the outer wheel ?

It probably isnt 'genuine' understeer as in the front losing grip?

The squiggly bit I agree is the ESC over re acting, both Sport and OFF help this as does having the steering calmed down as well, I have had the steering in Balanced but will also try Comfortable

Yes you're right there, it isn't understeer in the true sense as it does it at speeds and turn angles where grip is never going to be lost.

 

[DangerMouseUK]

I think part of it is their progressive steering and the other part is the clutched rear-drivetrain. Everyone complained about the progressive steering on some past Audi's before.

The progressive steering in the RS3 seems to be controlled by a few things - the driver profile, the speed and the new control module that reads all the other sensors, my guess is Audi haven't quite got the specifics of the calibration nailed down - knowing them they won't firmware update it though.

"The RS‑specific progressive steering varies the gear ratio depending on the steering angle – as the steering angle increases, the gear ratio becomes smaller and steering more direct. It also assists based on speed and can be varied via Audi drive select."

&

"Another new addition to the RS 3 is the modular vehicle dynamics controller (mVDC). This central system captures data from all the components relevant to lateral dynamics, thus ensuring that they interact more precisely and more quickly. The mVDC synchronizes the torque splitter, adaptive dampers, and wheel-selective torque control for precise steering and handling. All in all, it increases the vehicle’s agility, especially on winding roads."

 

[steve111b]

After driving an 8V for 4 years I can pass on some information about the old car. Is the drive select the same as the 8V? On the 8V the car always starts in Comfort and must be set after every restart.

It is best to stick to the basic drive modes. Going into Individual and doing a mix and match will lead to confusion. As the settings lose traction control (every mode has its own ESC) the car becomes more responsive. While Dynamic with ESC off is the most responsive, it could generate too much response for some drivers.

When the car is doing 100 km/hr (7th gear) and the driver lets go of the throttle the weight shifts forward and the back end goes up. The engine braking only happens on the front wheels when in FWD. So downshifting to 2nd puts even more engine braking on the front end. Plus the rear weels are not connected to anything (in FWD) which means that rotating mass has only one way to release its force and that is pushing the rear up (of course the front goes down even more). In AWD things change because engine braking goes to all 4 wheels (rear wheels are connected in AWD). AWD (quattro) is applied to the different drive modes (off throttle) with the most responsive going to Dynamic ESC off.