if a car has almost 50/50 weight distribution and rear wheel drive would that put it on par with a 4 wheel drive that has its engine over the front wheels,im sitting on the fence with this one as i dont know the answer.
AUDI V BMW?
- Thread starter bunny
- Start date
tinka said:
A decent AWD car (not an audi chassis
) will generally punch well above its weight especially on a track due to the higher cornering speeds it can generate and also because you can get the power down earlier with much more aggression as you power out of a corner.If you look at two cars that have similar straight line performance an M3 and an Evo Fq340, the Evo absolutley sh1tes all over all over the BMW round the bends because its can carry so much more corner speed due to way the torque is continuously distributed and adjusted around all four wheels something the BMW cant do.
The top AWD chassis also dont use the primitive methods of traction control like BMW which uses the brakes as part of the package again this slows the car down round a corner. If the BMW gets out of shape the traction control will start to cut power and apply the brakes as needed to correct the car in contrast the evo will just redistribute the power accordingly without cutting it or applying the brakes.
dmaudi
Registered User
Andymac,
I don't quite understand what your saying, I don't think any of us on here have a proper 4wd chassis, aren't all current and at least the last 3yrs worth of Audi "quattros" Haldex 4wd?
These are not in any way any good for sports driving they are purely there for safe wet handling ( and only well below the limit) and pulling away on greasy and damp junctions. and personaly and from what I can read of others here would have a properly balanced Rwd everytime or even fwd (which I don't really like) chassis over it now I've had one,
the transistion between control and losing the rear of a current and at least the last model BMW chassis is huge, anyone with even a limited amount of driving ability can generally play with one even in the wet,
and if you want a perfect car to learn how to drive a RWD chassis its got to be an e30 M3 or even a 325i sport e30, now they are fun cars to drive, but you need some talent if you want to keep them out of the scenery.
my quattro has no feel in the chassis or margin between control and rear end breakaway oversteer,
it just understeers right up until the front loses grip then power is shifted rearwards then most often it snaps into oversteeer, not a nice chassis balance, if you try to drift into bends like a suburu or mitsubishi evo it will most often just light up the esp or if damp try to oversteer before trying the above.
I'm pretty sure its not the chassis for me, but it might just be the heavy v6 so I'm holding off my final decsion until I've tried the 2.0Ts I have booked for next week, but its not looking good for the four rings IMHO.
really got to agree with Cossie (worringly a 2.0T owner which is my target car to keep with Audi!) currently the only proper 4wd cars out there are the Evo and Subaru, both have proper 4wd systems and not our cars
Has the original "quattro" just become a marketing gimmick?
.
I don't quite understand what your saying, I don't think any of us on here have a proper 4wd chassis, aren't all current and at least the last 3yrs worth of Audi "quattros" Haldex 4wd?
These are not in any way any good for sports driving they are purely there for safe wet handling ( and only well below the limit) and pulling away on greasy and damp junctions. and personaly and from what I can read of others here would have a properly balanced Rwd everytime or even fwd (which I don't really like) chassis over it now I've had one,
the transistion between control and losing the rear of a current and at least the last model BMW chassis is huge, anyone with even a limited amount of driving ability can generally play with one even in the wet,
and if you want a perfect car to learn how to drive a RWD chassis its got to be an e30 M3 or even a 325i sport e30, now they are fun cars to drive, but you need some talent if you want to keep them out of the scenery.
my quattro has no feel in the chassis or margin between control and rear end breakaway oversteer,
it just understeers right up until the front loses grip then power is shifted rearwards then most often it snaps into oversteeer, not a nice chassis balance, if you try to drift into bends like a suburu or mitsubishi evo it will most often just light up the esp or if damp try to oversteer before trying the above.
I'm pretty sure its not the chassis for me, but it might just be the heavy v6 so I'm holding off my final decsion until I've tried the 2.0Ts I have booked for next week, but its not looking good for the four rings IMHO.
really got to agree with Cossie (worringly a 2.0T owner which is my target car to keep with Audi!) currently the only proper 4wd cars out there are the Evo and Subaru, both have proper 4wd systems and not our cars
Has the original "quattro" just become a marketing gimmick?
.
AndyMac
Retired from service
"These are not in any way any good for sports driving "
Clearly wasn't talking about sports driving (try reading the words in the thread)
"the transistion between control and losing the rear of a current and at least the last model BMW chassis is huge,"
20 BM's in my local ditch would disagree with you. S4 faster round TG track than M3 would also disagree with you.
Haldex or not, a quattro is a far safer car in the wet than any BM when driven normally.
Clearly wasn't talking about sports driving (try reading the words in the thread)
"the transistion between control and losing the rear of a current and at least the last model BMW chassis is huge,"
20 BM's in my local ditch would disagree with you. S4 faster round TG track than M3 would also disagree with you.
Haldex or not, a quattro is a far safer car in the wet than any BM when driven normally.
Going back to the original Audi vs BMW points, I too am a fan of Munich's finest but the earlier-mentioned image problem extends a lot further than just hand gestures from other motorists, or not being let out from junctions.
I personally know two people who have had their BMWs vandalised, one in a public car park and one at home on their driveway. The latter was one of several BMW victims in the same street. It's this that puts me off more than anything.
I personally know two people who have had their BMWs vandalised, one in a public car park and one at home on their driveway. The latter was one of several BMW victims in the same street. It's this that puts me off more than anything.
da3m said:
Definitley even the RS4 and Porsche systems are poor in comparison to the Jap offerings especially Mitsubishi 's. Both the Germans again use the powercutting and braking form of traction control. The reason you can drive an Evo at such stupid angles is because it doesnt work in the same way which in turn gives an infinitley adjustable chassis and allows the AWD system to work to its optimum.
Audi are keen to promote their quattro heritage but dont seem so keen on keeping at the forefront of AWD technology.
dmaudi
Registered User
AndyMac said:
I had,
surely this latest and I felt the tone of your previous posts indicated you were talking about one thing for Audis and one for BMWs ? you're not saying that all these 20 bmw lost it in normal drivng? come on 20 in how long and where, surely that level of accidents would illicit some serious road mods.
oh and if its only BMW in your ditch I bet 99% were e30 / e34 or poorly maintained e36 (all of which now in banger territory unless looked after) surely that proves those are too often chosen by wannabee ( or something else beginning in W ) drivers.
I'm still sure in your "normal" driving even in the wet a new model BMW and a new 4wd audi would be very similar.
hence my question about what are you trying to say?
apologies though Andy if my point about sporty driving seemed to be directed to you
looking at the post now I should have been more obvious it was a more general comment and based on my 6 months of fairly hard driving in a Haldex 4wd Audi but I think we can agree that pushing on in the wet the haldex gives the impression of being safer but only until you get near the limit for me, then personally I'd rather have a chassis I understand, right now there is not enough feel in my car for me to trust it at the limit, I think it is not well enough balanced to be as safe as a well balanced rwd car.
agree on the Rs4 but it is a rearward biased 4wd car with 60+ hp over a 6yr old design m3. not exactly comparing the same thing are they. also price wise the Rs4 is heading into M5 territory saw a cabrio at Soton Audi last week for 61K
on some of the other posts,
jealousy and the actions of others should surely not stop any of us chosing or cause us to dismiss a brand of car just because of perceived image of that marques drivers. why should we miss out on quality products wherever they come from.
.
dmaudi
Registered User
:thumbsup:co55ie said:
25 yrs of quattro, mmm as a badge maybe as leading edge technology NO,
the integrale I had 14 yrs ago I reckon would probably out perform my 3.2Q,
it wouldn't last the week without a trip to the garage, I swear one of the reasons Lancia pulled out of the UK was to dodge my warranty claims!
loved that car even with the 6 points I got for the 3 feet of flame from the exhausts on the overrun
.
AndyMac
Retired from service
S4 not RS4, RS4 would completely anihilate the older M3.
I seem to remember the compeletely unbalanced, front end heavy V8 keeping a far tidier line than the BM scrabbling about all over the track.
Hardly fair? No but it was your good self who referred to the M3 as a good example of how well RWD cars work.
My original point was that for 95% of drivers the safety of quattro is far more important than the fun of getting the car sideways. Personally I could do without the fun of getting my car sideways on a busy dual carriageway. I'm not knocking the BM for all it's sportyness and undoubted fun in skilled hands, (yes it is probably the best drivers car in its class) but most of us (me included) are not Tiff Needell and would rather move the "limit" further away so I never get near it than have to deal with it on a regular basis.
Just for info the ditch is on Thomas Lewis Way in Southampton, you come off the airport roundabout onto a dual carriageway with a really nice lefthander. The outside lane always has a bit of loose gravel and road debris in it. Very entertaining if you get it just right and nobody else does anything stupid.
It's claimed all BM's that I've witnessed (use the road everyday) over last 3-4 years I guess and one DB7. There have been some 55/06's but yes most were probably scrappers.
Why would they bother with road mods, it's only BMW's afterall? I think they just see it as natural selection!
I seem to remember the compeletely unbalanced, front end heavy V8 keeping a far tidier line than the BM scrabbling about all over the track.
Hardly fair? No but it was your good self who referred to the M3 as a good example of how well RWD cars work.
My original point was that for 95% of drivers the safety of quattro is far more important than the fun of getting the car sideways. Personally I could do without the fun of getting my car sideways on a busy dual carriageway. I'm not knocking the BM for all it's sportyness and undoubted fun in skilled hands, (yes it is probably the best drivers car in its class) but most of us (me included) are not Tiff Needell and would rather move the "limit" further away so I never get near it than have to deal with it on a regular basis.
Just for info the ditch is on Thomas Lewis Way in Southampton, you come off the airport roundabout onto a dual carriageway with a really nice lefthander. The outside lane always has a bit of loose gravel and road debris in it. Very entertaining if you get it just right and nobody else does anything stupid.
It's claimed all BM's that I've witnessed (use the road everyday) over last 3-4 years I guess and one DB7. There have been some 55/06's but yes most were probably scrappers.
Why would they bother with road mods, it's only BMW's afterall? I think they just see it as natural selection!
AndyMac
Retired from service
"the integrale I had 14 yrs ago I reckon would probably out perform my 3.2Q" Now who's making unfair comparisons?
3.2Q is hardly a street legal rally car now is it? An Integrale would **** over most cars today, it weighs about half as much as anything on the road for a start, and gets lighter the more you drive it as bits are discarded along the way!
3.2Q is hardly a street legal rally car now is it? An Integrale would **** over most cars today, it weighs about half as much as anything on the road for a start, and gets lighter the more you drive it as bits are discarded along the way!
off subject,i had to get the wife to stop on the motorway today so i could go to the loo(i was desperate),it had no lights,so it was pitch black,
off i go down the hill through the undergrowth,in a rush,and before i know it im falling through the air and land in a 5 feet deep bog,could of been worse i think,i then lift my foot out of the bog to find my trainer has stayed there and i cant see a thing,
the bog is 5 foot deep so i can only just see over,im screaming(over the sound of the hurtling traffic) to jay my son to bring over the phone so i can use his light,eventualy he comes over,and i find my trainer,now my sock is wet and covered in stinking mud,on top of that the sides of the ditch are covered in stinging nettles,
when i get back to the car the wife and jay are in stitches crying with laughter,
just thought i would share it with you guys.
off i go down the hill through the undergrowth,in a rush,and before i know it im falling through the air and land in a 5 feet deep bog,could of been worse i think,i then lift my foot out of the bog to find my trainer has stayed there and i cant see a thing,
the bog is 5 foot deep so i can only just see over,im screaming(over the sound of the hurtling traffic) to jay my son to bring over the phone so i can use his light,eventualy he comes over,and i find my trainer,now my sock is wet and covered in stinking mud,on top of that the sides of the ditch are covered in stinging nettles,
when i get back to the car the wife and jay are in stitches crying with laughter,
just thought i would share it with you guys.
AndyMac said:
Thing is if you look into the lap times on the TG website - I'm assuming you have just googled for it there's some anomalies...
M3 CSL 1.28
R32 130.4
Audi S4 1.30.9
Porker 911 turbo 131.0
BMW 535D 131.8
M3 1.31.8
130 1.31.9
Can anyone else see a problem with any of the lap times? I'm not saying they are wrong just some surprises in there.
Now using Evo for ref those figures look a little different...
Porker 911 turbo 1.26
RS4 1.28.35
BMS M3 CS (Not the CSL) 129.8
R32 132.55
BMW 130 133.55
Going back to the original argument, modern BMW's do not let you have that much fun, the nannying traction control takes care of that. You can only get the rear to step out a few degrees before the electronics take over.
I'm assuming when you say thomas lewis way you actually mean the roundabout off junction 5 off the m27? Onto stoneham way that you can them turn left onto thomas lewis way?
Looks like this could turn into one of the debates lsimilar to which colour is best...
J.
d3fy
Registered User
d3fy
Registered User
I know J, but its like watching two squabling kids, where you just hope that a parent comes along and twats them
My comment was tongue in cheek honestly!
Looks like we are never going to agree. Perhaps seeing as Andy and I live in quite close proximity we should meet up and just **** each other?
J.
Looks like we are never going to agree. Perhaps seeing as Andy and I live in quite close proximity we should meet up and just **** each other?
J.
AndyMac
Retired from service
marriedblonde said:
I believe an M3 and M5 is only about 1 - 2 seconds a lap quicker round bedford autodrome than a Clio
Sorry if people buy into all this 50 / 50 weight distribution and ultimate driving machine lark then they deserve to to end up in a ditch.
The FQ340 laps in about 1.24.6 so you can compare that to the RS4 , Both cars accelerate similarly . The evo corners much much faster and can brake later as its lighter and has a better chassis. Its rude to even compare a hot hatch chasing M car .
ManicMunky
Registered User
dmaudi
Registered User
AndyMac said:
sorry
no but I wish it was a bit more fun, I only mentioned the integrale as it is my only other real 4wd experience, and over time I learned to drive it like I hoped my 3.2 would let me,but oh god your right, nothing actually fell off but not much other than the engine worked after two years, central locking dead, EW only passenger side ones, AC full speed only, passenger seat mech jammed, rear wheel bearings replaced twice (dealer over torqued the hubs both times apparently!) and total brake failure trying to slow for the complex at Thruxton on a track day due to split master cylinder, no rust though, but almost always smelt like a scalextrix car if you know what I mean,
I think I do know the corner you mention, I work in Hamble and we have a factory in Chandlers Ford so go that way sometimes, but so far I've missed the bmwnage there,
shall I come and referree the twatting!!
AndyMac
Retired from service
I have no chance of getting to choose whether I want a CSL over an RS4 for my next company car, so their relative merits are irrelevant. All I know is that the 320D was so much better to drive (in terms of steering, balance, drive and especially refinement at town and motorway speeds) than the A4 that it easily outweighed the image & interior shorfalls, IMO. I would have been interested in trying out the new A4 170Quattro but it was just out of my budget - but even so I would still have been noisy, nose heavy and "clattery".
There is a guy who owns a Hotel overlooking the Nurburgring (the Ringhaus if you're interested) who has motorsport running through his veins, so to speak. I have stayed there a few times and had a very long alchohol fuelled discussion with him earlier this year. He said that of all the teams that use the 'ring for testing, the Audi set up was by far the most impressive. They book his entire hotel and bring 200 mechanics when preparing race cars (DTM, Endurance etc) and a fleet of trucks.
He knows the team manager very well, and told me that the guy basically admitted that 90% of Audi road cars were pretty awful when it came to handling and balance - cabin space and marketing budgets took priority over the finer points of engineering.
The amount of money they spent on their race teams was obviously to generate a significant halo effect (as with all race teams), but the general point being made was that unless you buy an RS4 or similar, you are buying into a sporting brand rather than a buying a sporty car.
Very interesting to see how readily we look to the likes of RS4s etc to judge the merits of our own £25k "variants" though.
There is a guy who owns a Hotel overlooking the Nurburgring (the Ringhaus if you're interested) who has motorsport running through his veins, so to speak. I have stayed there a few times and had a very long alchohol fuelled discussion with him earlier this year. He said that of all the teams that use the 'ring for testing, the Audi set up was by far the most impressive. They book his entire hotel and bring 200 mechanics when preparing race cars (DTM, Endurance etc) and a fleet of trucks.
He knows the team manager very well, and told me that the guy basically admitted that 90% of Audi road cars were pretty awful when it came to handling and balance - cabin space and marketing budgets took priority over the finer points of engineering.
The amount of money they spent on their race teams was obviously to generate a significant halo effect (as with all race teams), but the general point being made was that unless you buy an RS4 or similar, you are buying into a sporting brand rather than a buying a sporty car.
Very interesting to see how readily we look to the likes of RS4s etc to judge the merits of our own £25k "variants" though.
Just like to add my 2 pence
i have had 5 Adui over the years and everytime i go to buy a new car i tst drive other main the BM's and evertime i end up back at audi.
best car to drive/handeling well are we talking on a track or the road in the dry or wet. FRW/Q/RWD
in the uk the roads are wet id say at least 50% ofthe time so AWD is nice to have to pull off from lights no wheel spin just power down off you go.
roundabouts if you go to fast into them then you do abit of 4 wheel drift or understear but RWD you have lose the back end much nore dangerous, though traction control will no doubt come in on the car first and the BM's come in quiker and more agressively.
my friend who has had 2 BMW has now swoped to Audi and hasnt looked back.
basicaly FRW vs RWD no contest but Q/RWD is far closer perhaps on a track RWD is bett butin the road i prefere Q the amount of time i have spent driving on a track is exactly 0 so for me its Audi Q if i was atrack day man then maybe it would be different. mind you if i could go on track day all the time i think i would buy a track day car
skooby
i have had 5 Adui over the years and everytime i go to buy a new car i tst drive other main the BM's and evertime i end up back at audi.
best car to drive/handeling well are we talking on a track or the road in the dry or wet. FRW/Q/RWD
in the uk the roads are wet id say at least 50% ofthe time so AWD is nice to have to pull off from lights no wheel spin just power down off you go.
roundabouts if you go to fast into them then you do abit of 4 wheel drift or understear but RWD you have lose the back end much nore dangerous, though traction control will no doubt come in on the car first and the BM's come in quiker and more agressively.
my friend who has had 2 BMW has now swoped to Audi and hasnt looked back.
basicaly FRW vs RWD no contest but Q/RWD is far closer perhaps on a track RWD is bett butin the road i prefere Q the amount of time i have spent driving on a track is exactly 0 so for me its Audi Q if i was atrack day man then maybe it would be different. mind you if i could go on track day all the time i think i would buy a track day car
skooby
dmaudi
Registered User
AndyMac said:
its was a truely great experience both the car and track, still see the car now and then, the guy I sold it to still owns it after 14yrs
dmaudi
Registered User
jdp1962 said:
always "repected" them only because of two TopGear fetures with them in,
Clarkson racing a skier downhill in a saloon x type!!
and him being towed up a lane on skis by an estate x type
neither of course in any way indicative of their actual ability but FUN
.
i wish i could own a car for 14 years,i would of saved a load of money over the years,although i might have to get near that with the m sport.
dmaudi
Registered User
tinka said:
only possible if you love the car,
I've just sold an e30 M3 I've had for 6 years as a third/toy car, I still miss/regret it after 4 months but it never saved me any money keeping it that long
the guy who bought my integrale has a number of other modern classics, he pestered me for over a year back then to sell as mine was one of last made,
