Problems after turbo refit

[Solberg]

So Ive had the franken F23 out of my APY to get a cracked bolt out, I also changed from OEM downpipe with holed cats to 3" downpipe with 200 cell sport cat.

The car has been mapped before, dunno nothing baout that but when I got it, and before I took the turbo out it was boosting around 0,5 bar. Now after taking it in and out it is boosting 1-1,5 bar and sometimes peaking at around 1,8bar. What the **** is going on? After a few gear drags I opened the bonnet and both manifold and turbo was GLOWING, never seen that on the car before no matter how hard i drowe it. I also got a bad ticking sound coming from the engine top now which I did not have before. And to add more I installed a brand new innovate mxt-l wideband gauge with the exuast and the god damn sensor is now damaged and cannot read, probably from too hot exhaust after only 1 hour of driving.


What the heck is going on? The car has been mapped and Ive got an MBC which is set to min boost but still peaking at 1,8 bar. Checked all vacuum lines aswell all looking good.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Pipe direct to the actuator from boost... should only run at actuator pressure... if it does then your plumbing is suspect... it it still runs high boost then something is up with the turbo

<tuffty/>

 

[Stuart B]

1.5 bar is about right 21 psi - you fixed it

0.5 bar is 7psi - that is actuator pressure on a standard K04

Other people report glowing manifolds

The 1.8 bar is maybe the MBC knackered and trying to run on max 30 psi boost. - I put my N75 back in when I joined the forum as 30psi is dangerous.

This is how my car arrived - the MBC is between the charge pipe and the actuator. (when I got the car the MBC wheel did nothing it always went up to 30 psi)

 

[Solberg]

Pipe direct to the actuator from boost... should only run at actuator pressure... if it does then your plumbing is suspect... it it still runs high boost then something is up with the turbo

<tuffty/>

Dont know if i understood that, but i have plumbed vacuums after this picture now:

But its so strange because I have done nothing too it, all I did was put turbo in and out and change the downpipe. It was boosting 0,5 before and now 1,8 bar.


And what about ticking sound from the top, glowing turbo and destroyed lsu sensor brand new after only 1 hour Im so afraid that ive burnt the top or valves etc.... arghh

 

[Solberg]

1.5 bar is about right 21 psi - you fixed it

0.5 bar is 7psi - that is actuator pressure on a standard K04

Other people report glowing manifolds

The 1.8 bar is maybe the MBC knackered and trying to run on max 30 psi boost. - I put my N75 back in when I joined the forum as 30psi is dangerous.

This is how my car arrived - the MBC is between the charge pipe and the actuator. (when I got the car the MBC wheel did nothing it always went up to 30 psi)

View attachment 106168

Thats how Ive been taught turbo cars normally have it when not running with N75... Ive tried without n75 but it gave instant limp mode...



The ticking could it be the timing belt jumping over? Ive got a rassling belt sound from left side on the engine, I taught it could be the water pump belt but some guy at another forum said it could be timing belt jumping over and causing tick?

 

[Stuart B]

I thought people replaced the N75 with a MBC like mine was? why don't you just plug the N75 in properly and bypass the MBC?

is your turbo only supposed to be 7psi, instead of 20psi?

 

[Stuart B]

I don't know about your timing belt mine was fitted out by a tooth for over a month and 1000 miles with no ticking or rasping just an error code every 100 miles.

If the MBC was causing limp mode (from overboost maybe) was it broken anyway, I don't see how your organisation of pipework will do anything but use the lowest pressure release and maybe your N75 was not plugged in properly before so was on actuator pressure? this is far too complicated for me I am afraid.

 

[Solberg]

Its supposed to be 7psi like it is now, with the mbc set to minimum boost yes.... but thats the problem because set to min gives 26 psi now...

I also installed adjustable FPR while doing turbo refit now, but I did not adjust this before the boost issue came up, I also drove the car with stock 3 bar fpr and boosting problem was still there.

BUT the glowing turbo/manifold **** came after upping fuel pressure to around 4 bar, while AFR was telling 13-14 ish which is good, nothing lean. Then glowing turbo and bang sensor was banged and then last I got the ticking.

Could it be adjusting fuel pressure without proper mapping of other parameters (timing etc) causing everything going to shaits even tho AFR looked good?

 

[Stuart B]

I don't understand - this clip is showing a Franken F23 running 30psi boost not 7psi?

 

[Stuart B]

When I was looking at turbo service kits - the instructions said to ensure you "mark the actuator screw" to ensure the adjustment is correct after fitting the new seals etc. is it possible this has been disturbed?

or is it possible some debris has somehow jammed something after your difficulties with the seized stud?

 

[Solberg]

It could... it was a god damn war fest to get the turbo out so I could have been touching around the actuator somehow. The actuator was also very dirt when the turbo was out after oil and exhaust leaks... could be stuck or something maybe?

 

[Solberg]

I wonder, do I need to have an MBC? I am going to get the car remapped as soon I feel everything is safe and good, the MBC came with the car, I belive it was put in for mapping by prev owner when he built the car and mapped it last year.

Ive just had the MBC set to lowest boost all this time waiting to get it mapped, but do the tuner need the mbc or can he adjust turbo pressure on his computer or whatever he does?

 

[badger5]

plumbed wrong or actuator not set correctly or sticking now.
plumb direct as suggested to validate actuator is working without any of the mbc nonsense

 

[Solberg]

plumbed wrong or actuator not set correctly or sticking now.
plumb direct as suggested to validate actuator is working without any of the mbc nonsense

Can you tell if it is right plumbed with the picture I posted above?

Anyways im going to report back and see what happens if I take out the MBC.

Going to a friend to vagcom it right now. I have tho a bad feeling about the actuator being stuck or that it might have been bent or adjusted a little when being taken out/in. When it was out i put air on the actuator and it moved freely.



Might throw up some pictures from the weekend aswell:



So fitting a 3" DP, hard to get in, cut it after the 90 bend from turbo and placed a vband kit on it. The little red thing is bung for wideband gauge... need to replace that further down as the lsu 4,9 sensor burnt after 1 hour lol.

Error code E8 means damaged sensor...

Adjustable FPR and gauge fitted:

Angle on the downpipe made exhaust hang looooow so had to cut of the flange and weld it on at different angle:

Strapped to get right angle:

Welding flange on again, TIG.

Finally fitted, sits high, about zero vibration or ugly noices from exhaust, welded on a plate for protection cat and a new hanger there.

 

[Solberg]

Okay I am no engineer but I just dont think the timing belt is going to sit away from the tooths like this??????

Reason for strange belt sound and engine thick this??

 

[Stuart B]

just push it back on and crank the engine round a few times, unless something is working it away?

 

[Solberg]

just push it back on and crank the engine round a few times, unless something is working it away?

Not sure I want to as it ticks.... might have jumped over a tooth??? Did not tick before belt started to make strange sound yesterday.

 

[Stuart B]

you can check for TDC with the top cover and lower pulley and lower cover removed or even just remove the number 1 plug and put a wooden spoon in the hole and crank on the lower pulley until the high point. I don't totally trust the cam cover marker as it seems too vague, mine looked aligned but was advanced.

why would it jump a tooth, was the damper changed along with the timing belt?

 

[Solberg]

I only think so because it has started tick... :/

 

[Solberg]

After more inspection I belive the timingbelt is okay and I think the tick is coming from injectors, might have become louder after upping fuel pressure so that part is good.

About the turbo pressure that was peaking 1,8 bar and making turbo glow, I tried to unplug the MBC and checked plumbing, this did not help, it was still boosting to the moon.

I then tried unplugging the N75 electrically, now the car boost 0,5 bar / 7,2 psi, it will keep boost at this level till 5100rpm, then the engine kind of stops up even on WOT and I can hear a not very loud bang-bang-bang from engine like misfire or knock etc, boost will raise up to 0,7 bar / 10psi after 5100 but it feels like ALOT less power. But that might just be because everything gets wrong with N75 unplugged. Did not get any DCL lamp, and could not find any errors on N75 in VCDS. However it showed error on my lambda, like "no signal" or something, could it be burnt off like my other labda for the gauge did? Wouldnt the car go badly if the narrowband cutted out? With n75 plugged in the cars feels totally fine except for overboosting.


Log from VCDS some error on the haldex aswell:

Chassis Type: 8L - Audi A3/S3 (1997 > 2003)
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 22 35 37 45 55 56 57 75 76

Mileage: 230970km-143518miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 06A-906-032-APX.clb
Part No: 8N0 906 018 F
Component: 1.8L R4 5VT 0001
Coding: 05610
Shop #: WSC 33278
VCID: 347B0C03CE3B9F92CB68EA5-515E

9 Faults Found:
17931 - Crash Signal from Airbag Controller
P1523 - 35-00 - Implausible Signal
17521 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor; B1 S1
P1113 - 35-00 - Internal Resistance too High
17695 - Boost Pressure Control Valve (N249)
P1287 - 35-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
16518 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S1
P0134 - 35-00 - No Activity
17743 - Engine Torque Monitor 2
P1335 - 35-10 - Control Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
16487 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
P0103 - 35-10 - Signal too High - Intermittent
16885 - Vehicle Speed Sensor
P0501 - 35-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
18010 - Power Supply Terminal 30
P1602 - 35-10 - Voltage too Low - Intermittent
17956 - Boost Pressure Regulation Valve (N75)
P1548 - 35-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
Readiness: 0000 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 8N0-907-379-MK20.lbl
Part No: 8N0 907 379 A
Component: ABS/EDS 20 IE CAN V001
Coding: 13504
Shop #: WSC 06435
VCID: 3A67223BEC5F69E2112454D-4B00

1 Fault Found:
01324 - Control Module for All Wheel Drive (J492)
49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent





And after reseting faults:


3 Faults Found:
17521 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor; B1 S1
P1113 - 35-00 - Internal Resistance too High
16518 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S1
P0134 - 35-00 - No Activity
17931 - Crash Signal from Airbag Controller
P1523 - 35-00 - Implausible Signal
Readiness: 0000 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 8N0-907-379-MK20.lbl
Part No: 8N0 907 379 A
Component: ABS/EDS 20 IE CAN V001
Coding: 13504
Shop #: WSC 06435
VCID: 3A67223BEC5F69E2112454D-4B00

No fault code found.

 

[Stuart B]

unplugging the N75 means it runs on actuator pressure that is the 7psi. maybe it wasn't connected properly before.

It shouldn't be causing any extra fault codes having it unplugged.

I still don't understand the main query the boost levels with a stage 1 mapped S3 is 20(ish) psi - is a FrakenF23 supposed to be 7psi? a standard S3 is about 12-15psi isn't it?

 

[<tuffty/>]

unplugging the N75 means it runs on actuator pressure that is the 7psi. maybe it wasn't connected properly before.

Not strictly true... it will be whatever the actuator is rated at... generally speaking hybrids require a stiffer actuator so base pressure is typically higher than the std one

It shouldn't be causing any extra fault codes having it unplugged.

It will generate an N75 open circuit fault code

I still don't understand the main query the boost levels with a stage 1 mapped S3 is 20(ish) psi - is a FrakenF23 supposed to be 7psi? a standard S3 is about 12-15psi isn't it?

You can't compare boost... std boost is 12 ish psi

Mapped boost is whatever its mapped at... F23 will be whatever it was mapped at and at this time thats not been verified..

The fact his has got an MBC on it suggests it was originally mapped to a higher boost pressure than 1.5bar... MBC's are used in this manner to cap max boost so allowing the boost to go above 1.5bar even thought he ECU can't see it and retain a degree of control...

This is a very old method to control boost and have been circumvented by better understanding of the ECU and utilising a mix of closed and open loop boost control..

To understand whats going on here you need to run a pipe directly from the N75's boost feed on the charge pipe to the actuator... this will give you the base line pressure of the actuator and confirm that it appears to be working as expected.

You also need to log boost request to understand what the map is actually trying to ask for...

I suspect without proper mapping then you won't be able to remove the MBC as yet but the only MBC that actually seems to work in this configuration is the Forge UNOS... it was the only one that gave any form of control... bleed valves and other MBCs were on or off...

17931 - Crash Signal from Airbag Controller
P1523 - 35-00 - Implausible Signal
17521 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor; B1 S1
P1113 - 35-00 - Internal Resistance too High
17695 - Boost Pressure Control Valve (N249)
P1287 - 35-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
16518 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S1
P0134 - 35-00 - No Activity
17743 - Engine Torque Monitor 2
P1335 - 35-10 - Control Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
16487 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
P0103 - 35-10 - Signal too High - Intermittent
16885 - Vehicle Speed Sensor
P0501 - 35-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
18010 - Power Supply Terminal 30
P1602 - 35-10 - Voltage too Low - Intermittent
17956 - Boost Pressure Regulation Valve (N75)
P1548 - 35-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
Readiness: 0000 0000

Seems you have a few wiring issues maybe...

All these need sorting... faulty MAF would give the torque limit fault but have seen the MAF too high fault as a result of poor mapping... if the MAF new?... if not might be worth considering replacing

Lambda S1B1 is your narrow band lambda and without that the ECU is blind to fuelling...

N249 unplugged? needs plugging in else fuel adaptions won't work

<tuffty/>

 

[Solberg]

Thanks tuffty.

Gives me something to look into. Im considering just changing n75, maf and lambda, going down to the dealership tomorrow.

I am waiting for a deatschwerk fuel pump and a new fuel filter then I am off to remap the car. It was mapped by prev owner and he prob installed mbc while mapping it i guess but not 100% sure why it is there. Only thing that worried me was why it was boosting 0,5bar before taking turbo out, and after putting it in boost was 1-1,5 bar with random 1,8 bar peaks.

Dont wanna spend time and money on driving all the way over to Sweden to map my car and then have to drive home without proper map because something is not in order.

Could a faulty wastegate make this happen?

Unplugged n75 = constant 0,5 bar till 5100 rpm, then car "dies" and rpm stalls (WOT), even tho boost rises to 0,7 bar.

Plugged n75 without MBC and correct plumbing = Around 1 bar + boost, turbo kicks at around 4000 rpm and i get random spikes between 1,5-1,8bar boost. Also sometimes in higher gears when I hit 1,5-1,8bar boost and keeps WOT the boost falls down to 1 bar again.

 

[badger5]

fix your other faults like lambda first
you cant log things without fuel control working
I would be concerned the ticking noise you now hear is bend rods and pistons kissing squirters (or whatever stumps left from squirter)

seen/heard this a few times now

 

[Solberg]

fix your other faults like lambda first
you cant log things without fuel control working
I would be concerned the ticking noise you now hear is bend rods and pistons kissing squirters (or whatever stumps left from squirter)

seen/heard this a few times now

Ouch, I hope not, dont scare me mate

Tried some stuff on my car today:

N75 plugged in with stock plumbing = boost is around 1 bar but peaks between 1,5 bar to 1,8 bar randomly, if I keep WOT when i hit say 1,8 bar peak the pressure gradually goes down to 1 bar before redline.

N75 unplgged electrically = 0,5 bar pressure constant, hits 0,7 bar just before redline.

N75 Plugged electrically but without vacuum conected, running hose direct from charge pipe to wastegate with MBC inline set to NO bleed gives 0,5 bar, just like when N75 is unplugged. But if i bleed the MBC it works PERFECT, I can adjust boost just like I want and the car feels MUCH better. If I set it to say 0,7 bar boost the car feels alot "faster" / more powerfull than when it hit 1,8 bar with N75 plugged in with vacuums like stock. That is strange right?

Does this mean my N75 is broken?


Another problem is that when I hit 5100 RPM the car cuts and i can hear strange click from the engine, about same that Stuart describes here: http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/thread...-at-around-5500-6000-rpm.294129/#post-2845468

It feels like fuelcut, and it got worse the more I pushed the car, it just got worse and worse, the car boost really well all the way up but when it hit exactly 5100 the RPM stop instantly, makes a jump, can hear click from engine (injectors?) and the cars feels like it is beeing strangled.

 

[Stuart B]

Another problem is that when I hit 5100 RPM the car cuts and i can hear strange click from the engine, about same that Stuart describes here: http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/thread...-at-around-5500-6000-rpm.294129/#post-2845468

It feels like fuelcut, and it got worse the more I pushed the car, it just got worse and worse, the car boost really well all the way up but when it hit exactly 5100 the RPM stop instantly, makes a jump, can hear click from engine (injectors?) and the cars feels like it is beeing strangled.

I hear you brother - but it doesn't feel like a coil / plug misfire - which shakes the whole car, and there is either an electrical click or some resonation in the downpipe making it sound like a click coming from that area.

Can I ask whether you have actually removed your N249 valve - as Tuffty pointed out to you there is a VCDS fault in your list - when I saw it I was wondering whether with all your heat you burnt the wiring - as I relocated mine since my head gasket and it is no longer wrapped in heat shield, but sitting on top of the cam cover next to the charge pipe.

is it possibly a bad earth on the cam cover? my wire is in appalling condition.

 

[Solberg]

Yeah the way you describe it is exactly how I have it :O

I did N249 delete early in the summer this year and it has worked fine since I did it, the error in VCDS was probably from burning the wires like you said, but Ive fixed the wiring to it, so it was just and old error/fault that needed to be reset I have taken of all vacuums on the N249, and made longer wires on it so its hiding away by the brake fluid bottle.


About the other problem I think it is either:
Fuelpump.
Fuelfilter.
Injectors.
N75.

I changed my FPR to an adjustable one this weekend, but problem was still there (happened before change).

I am ordering new lambda sensor and n75. The deaschwerk 500hp fuel pump is on its way, and I picked up a new fuel filter 1 hour ago.

Will report back!

 

[Stuart B]

I have got a new fuel pump and fuel filter in mine -

you know what this feels like an electronic rev limiter cutting in - is there any history of S3s getting rev limiter issues?

or some other protection device interfering?

that is why I mentioned the N249 as the delete thread implied it is for cutting the power in an accident so no longer required since fly by wire (maybe it only diverted turbo power instead of anything else) - I do know it actually held boost between gear 1 and 2

I might actually try without traction control switched on - to see whether that is interfering although I would expect a light to be flashing if getting involved.

 

[badger5]

Ouch, I hope not, dont scare me mate

Tried some stuff on my car today:

N75 plugged in with stock plumbing = boost is around 1 bar but peaks between 1,5 bar to 1,8 bar randomly, if I keep WOT when i hit say 1,8 bar peak the pressure gradually goes down to 1 bar before redline.

N75 unplgged electrically = 0,5 bar pressure constant, hits 0,7 bar just before redline.

N75 Plugged electrically but without vacuum conected, running hose direct from charge pipe to wastegate with MBC inline set to NO bleed gives 0,5 bar, just like when N75 is unplugged. But if i bleed the MBC it works PERFECT, I can adjust boost just like I want and the car feels MUCH better. If I set it to say 0,7 bar boost the car feels alot "faster" / more powerfull than when it hit 1,8 bar with N75 plugged in with vacuums like stock. That is strange right?

Does this mean my N75 is broken?


Another problem is that when I hit 5100 RPM the car cuts and i can hear strange click from the engine, about same that Stuart describes here: http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/thread...-at-around-5500-6000-rpm.294129/#post-2845468

It feels like fuelcut, and it got worse the more I pushed the car, it just got worse and worse, the car boost really well all the way up but when it hit exactly 5100 the RPM stop instantly, makes a jump, can hear click from engine (injectors?) and the cars feels like it is beeing strangled.

there is no fuel cut on these engines aside from rev limiter.
1.8bar is asking for bent rods.

maps not matching your hardware..
MBC may be your best bet if you cant/wont get it mapped properly

 

[Solberg]

there is no fuel cut on these engines aside from rev limiter.
1.8bar is asking for bent rods.

maps not matching your hardware..
MBC may be your best bet if you cant/wont get it mapped properly

Hmmm thinking a bit...all this happened when I took turbo in and out, yes.

But at the same time i did that I changed my OEM restrictive downpipe to a 3" DP with 200 cell cat, my OEM DP did have the 2 cats but they where empty/holed out.

All this overboost and rev choke at 5100 rpm +, could that be changing exhaust is messing up my map? Or is that a too little change for so much trouble?

 

[Alex C]

AFR was telling 13-14 ish which is good, nothing lean.

13-14 AFR on full boost?

 

[Solberg]

13-14 AFR on full boost?

Yes i reckon so, 14,7, might have jumped a milli second above but it was mostly 14,7 ish all the time when my gauge worked.

 

[Alex C]

was it 13-14 (between 13 and 14) or 14.7 (more than 14) during full boost

 

[badger5]

too lean if so

 

[Alex C]

yep; I thought 13-14 was lean but now it looks like it was14.7 on full boost!

 

[badger5]

thats not good
poor engine

 

[Solberg]

Ive been thaught its supposed to be 14,7, how can 13-14 be lean?

I am asking because I do not know but would like to know lol.

 

[<tuffty/>]

You have been taught wrong dude...

Turbo engines tend to require an AFR of around 12.5 under boost to help keep EGT's in check...

Factory ECU on wideband S3's run 14.7 until component protection kicks in... this is why AMK/BAM heads suffer from cracked heads more than other 1.8t's as they tend to run hot...

APY's like yours run a much richer as standard as they don't have EGT protection in the same way as AMK/BAM... if yours is running 14.7 then its been mapped like that or you have some other issue...

14.7 is way too lean for a safe tuned turbo engine

<tuffty/>

 

[Solberg]

The way you explain it I now understand why my manifold and turbo was glowing strong when i was testing with gauge.

Would it be enough to adjust my fuel pressure a bit higher to get my afr down?

 

[<tuffty/>]

Would it be enough to adjust my fuel pressure a bit higher to get my afr down?

Nope... Get it sorted in mapping... Assuming its not a mechanical issue

<tuffty/>