6-speed DSG "crawl"

[sunscreemer]

Appreciate there's a lot of info on here surrounding the DSG gearboxes, but I have a fairly specific question...

Considering going from the excellent ZF 8AT in my BMW to the (I believe) 6-speed wet clutch DSG in the S3 Sportback. Does this DSG "crawl" ok in slow moving traffic? Has anyone any good experience of comparison between these gearboxes?

 

[Pulp84]

Hahaha - excellent 8 speed ZF box?

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that gearbox is inferior to the DSG. It's only smooth on up changes with a fair amount of throttle input, it's even slower to find a gear when kick down is requested and it's not expecting it, dithering at junctions on/off throttle (same as the DSG can do), it's slower up changing etc. I really could go on. Live with it on two cars driving over 100,000 miles when you also have a DSG equipped car on the drive and you will be a hater too.....

To be fair - the DSG does have the odd moment when it can not fathom out the command your right foot has just given the throttle (mainly at junctions) and moments where it will take what seems an age to find the right gear during kick down. Other wise it's the better box IMHO.

To answer your question - yes, the DSG does crawl / creep.

 

[veeeight]

I'm with Pulp on the odd moments the DSG gearbox occasionally has. But on the whole, it gets it right for 95% of the time.

The only annoying thing about the creep manifests itself if you are trying to do a say 6 point turn in a busy area. The delay between R and D and R and D and R and D and R and D can start increasing after a few manoeuvres.

 

[Pulp84]

^^^^ yes! forgot to mention what too veeeight !

 

[sunscreemer]

Damn BMW are trying hard - they have big targets so are bombarding me with equally big discounts to get me into a 330d or 335d to avoid me moving back to Audi!

 

[Pulp84]

Prepare for MONSTER depreciation on both those models.....

Facelift due soon too. Hence the discounts on the 3-series. Haven't you been burnt enough sunscreemer....?

 

[Liquidfusion-S3]

The dsg feels like a fully automatic to me, no complaints here

 

[phil1824]

Fingers crossed that is also the case with the 7 speed dry clutch with the A3 1.4??

 

[veeeight]

In some ways, there is less acceleration "hesitancy" with the dry clutch 7 speed.

Crawl is fine with the 7 speed, but the D to R to D to R delay is still apparent.

Not great for doing J turns.


With all DSG boxes, there is a degree of "learning to drive the gearbox", in addition to learning to drive the car.

 

[sunscreemer]

Prepare for MONSTER depreciation on both those models.....

Facelift due soon too. Hence the discounts on the 3-series. Haven't you been burnt enough sunscreemer....?

Very mild LCI on the 3-series though, not like it needed a major revamp like the 1-series LCI. My main concern would be that the LCI gets lots of extra fit for a token price increase then I can't get anywhere near the same discount on it.

In truth, I didn't need something as big as the 3-series but the 1-series didn't have what i wanted - i.e. all wheel drive and an auto box. Now that problem is solved (with new 120d xDrive Auto) but i would like more power. 330d xDrive solves that but it's not much different from what i've got and i loved my Audi. Problem is my negative equity, part of which would come off any (admittedly fantastic) deal on the 3-series. Audi have been much better at trying to minimise / manage that equity gap to be fair and as a long term ownership the discount and residuals balance themselves out on both cars (S3 & 330d) and BMW offer lower APR finance and the running costs would be lower. I've just got to weigh up if making a push for the S3 deal i'll be so pleased with it that it'll all feel worthwhile. Of course I could wait 12 months when the equity issue will be resolved. A lot of things to ponder.

 

[Martin L]

Wet clutch DSG crawl is fantastic I find. It will crawl at 3mph regardless of gradient.
To resolve the slight D to R and vica versa delay I will shift gear before I've actually come to the halt so when I brake to change direction the box is ready.
I've got 8 years a wet clutch dag experience

7 speed DSG is too slow from D to R and even using the above technique I still have to wait. A prod of the accelerator does help it though.

 

[Cobstar]

Interesting thread. Currently in a 1 series after several Audis but tempted by an S3 or RS3 next time. Really liking the 8 speed sport automatic gearbox on the current car. And reversing is a doddle.

Previous car was an A1 1.4 TFSI with 7 seven speed dry clutch S tronic. Great car with a lovely gearbox but the reverse gear thing was a pain and pulling away from a standstill. Had a customer satisfaction recall to change the gearbox oil too.

Previously had Mark 5 GTI with DSG and reverse in that was horrendous for manoeuvring.

 

[sunscreemer]

Interesting thread. Currently in a 1 series after several Audis but tempted by an S3 or RS3 next time. Really liking the 8 speed sport automatic gearbox on the current car. And reversing is a doddle.

Previous car was an A1 1.4 TFSI with 7 seven speed dry clutch S tronic. Great car with a lovely gearbox but the reverse gear thing was a pain and pulling away from a standstill. Had a customer satisfaction recall to change the gearbox oil too.

Previously had Mark 5 GTI with DSG and reverse in that was horrendous for manoeuvring.

I see that the gearbox oil issue was solved by moving from synthetic to natural oil apparently. I know some have questioned the ZF 8AT on the BMW but I can only take this as I find it and that's fantastic. This coming from a previously die hard manual gearbox fan!

 

[Cobstar]

Agree the ZF 8AT is brilliant sunscreemer. Automatic gearbox is great for stop start traffic round where I live and like you up till now I thought you needed a manual for a proper car. Sublime manual on my Honda S2000. And the RS2 and the B8 Avant were good too.

The RS6 has an 8 speed ZF but is huge and out of my price bracket.

Will be interested to hear what you decide.

 

[sunscreemer]

Agree the ZF 8AT is brilliant sunscreemer. Automatic gearbox is great for stop start traffic round where I live and like you up till now I thought you needed a manual for a proper car. Sublime manual on my Honda S2000. And the RS2 and the B8 Avant were good too.

The RS6 has an 8 speed ZF but is huge and out of my price bracket.

Will be interested to hear what you decide.

I used to have a mark 2.5 Mazda MX-5 and that short shift manual was amazing. The ZF 8AT is almost telepathic. My S3 test drive was in an s-tronic equipped convertible as no hatch or sportback available and to be honest i just drove it and didn't think about the gearbox which i guess is a compliment if you're not really noticing it going about doing its job!

 

[steve111b]

To resolve the slight D to R and vica versa delay I will shift gear before I've actually come to the halt so when I brake to change direction the box is ready.

I do the same as Martin. To reverse into my driveway I push the selector from D to N as I pass the drive. Then a few feet before I expect to stop I select R. Once the car comes to a complete stop I am ready to reverse. One can start backing up before coming to a complete stop, but I never mastered how to avoid the jerk that occurs.

 

[phil1824]

In some ways, there is less acceleration "hesitancy" with the dry clutch 7 speed.

Crawl is fine with the 7 speed, but the D to R to D to R delay is still apparent.

Not great for doing J turns.


With all DSG boxes, there is a degree of "learning to drive the gearbox", in addition to learning to drive the car.

I know it does work and they don't burn out, but how do they manage to get clutches to do this without burning out???

 

[veeeight]

They will eventually.

Crawling up a steep incline does involve slipping of the clutches.

 

[phil1824]

They will eventually.

Crawling up a steep incline does involve slipping of the clutches.

How about stop start traffic??

 

[veeeight]

Everything a "normal" clutch goes through, a DSG clutch(es) goes through.

So when it takes up the drive, there is a degree of slipping going on.

As for when you are stopped with the engine stopped with stop/start - no wear, because nothing is turning

If however you are stopped with the box in D and the foot on the brake pedal - well it depends whether you have pressed it on the first stage brake or second stage brake. And if you are in D or S.

If you are at the lights for more than say 30s, and you have a degree of mechanical sympathy for the car, knock it into N.
But even if you don't, the clutches are more than likely to last 000's of miles, but they will wear, and eventually need replacing.
Google DSG Clutch Slip and you will see that DSG clutches do eventually wear out.


More:
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/neutral-on-s-tronic-gearbox-do-you-ever-use-it.228797/

 

[phil1824]

Everything a "normal" clutch goes through, a DSG clutch(es) goes through.

So when it takes up the drive, there is a degree of slipping going on.

As for when you are stopped with the engine stopped with stop/start - no wear, because nothing is turning

If however you are stopped with the box in D and the foot on the brake pedal - well it depends whether you have pressed it on the first stage brake or second stage brake. And if you are in D or S.

If you are at the lights for more than say 30s, and you have a degree of mechanical sympathy for the car, knock it into N.
But even if you don't, the clutches are more than likely to last 000's of miles, but they will wear, and eventually need replacing.
Google DSG Clutch Slip and you will see that DSG clutches do eventually wear out.


More:
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/neutral-on-s-tronic-gearbox-do-you-ever-use-it.228797/

Your insights are very much valued. This is a great forum,

 

[veeeight]

I can categorically state that it is possible for a S-tronic DSG to roll back, a moderate incline will overcome the creep.

Just accelerate, or brake.

 

[Martin L]

I can categorically state that it is possible for a S-tronic DSG to roll back, a moderate incline will overcome the creep.

Just accelerate, or brake.

Initially it does if the incline is "moderate" enough, however I've never had the balls to see how long it takes to "recover" though.
After a prod of the accelerator to fend off the roll back and feet off the pedals the car will still creep at it's 3mph up an incline. It just takes a bit longer for it to adapt to the steeper incline.

 

[veeeight]

I rolled all the way down a multi-storey ramp this morning, picking up speed backwards, just to see what would happen

 

[sunscreemer]

In some ways, there is less acceleration "hesitancy" with the dry clutch 7 speed.

Crawl is fine with the 7 speed, but the D to R to D to R delay is still apparent.

Not great for doing J turns.


With all DSG boxes, there is a degree of "learning to drive the gearbox", in addition to learning to drive the car.

Yes, took me a while to adjust to the ZF 8AT in conjunction with throttle response etc and once you do it's great, expect moving to 6 -speed S-tronic and an engine with a completely different power distribution will be exactly the same learning curve.

 

[sunscreemer]

Did i say "will" be? I meant "would" be - decision not made yet.... or is it?

 

[Martin L]

I rolled all the way down a multi-storey ramp this morning, picking up speed backwards, just to see what would happen

Interesting, so a blip on the throttle is required to get it to creep again. I guess the clutch needs to find the new bite point relevant to the incline.
Literally everyday I "creep" up an incline (M4/M25 on ramp) and from standstill will just blip the throttle to get it moving and then let it creep with no need to use the accelerator. Letting the hill hold release with no blip will cause the car to roll back, didn't realise it would just keep going.

 

[h5djr]

I use the s-tronic (DSG) crawl or creep to put my car in the garage every day. I stop, open the garage door (by remote control) and then just take my foot off the brake and the car creeps forward slowly into the garage. It's the same coming out, release the EPB and the car slowly moves out of the garage without any need to touch the throttle pedal.

 

[constvoid]

I rolled all the way down a multi-storey ramp this morning, picking up speed backwards, just to see what would happen

What I find irritating is that it will roll back slightly sometimes when using ACC on an incline when following slowly moving traffic which then comes to a halt. It won't roll back far, but it's noticeable in the car, and may be enough to scare the car behind if it's too close