17608 Boost Pressure Control Valve

[spiker]

I have been reading a lot about this issue - seems this fault regularly appears and people have had mixed experiences solving this

17608 - Boost Pressure Control Valve (N249): Mechanical Malfunction
P1200 - 35-00 - -

What I understand so far is that just changing the N249 valve and/or changin the DV ( which is stock ) may not solve the issue. I spent about an hour yesterday following pipework looking for leaks or splits but didnt see anything unusual

Car is boosting fine - very happy with the performance - MAF replacement made a difference so the only symptom I have is the fault code so I am now at the point having done some research and some investigation under the bonnet - thinking what next ?

I could just replace both N249 and DV but after speaking to the main dealer they didnt exactly inspire confidence when suggesting it may be a different soleniod rather than the actual n249 valve

Is there a way or running some sort of boost leak test / smoke test that I or a garage can do ? - is this a thing ? rather than just replacing parts that may be at fault ? Is this something I could do myself somehow

Maybe this is a an opportunity to spend some time replacing some of the hoses that look original - but I have no clue where to start with that - which ones - in what order etc. Maybe its just a split pipe somewhere and a relatively easy fix

I am also tempted to just ignore the fault as she is running fine but I know that will eventually start bothering me

Lots of questions I know - just would appreciate any feedback and thoughts from you all before I spend more money

 

[<tuffty/>]

Have replied to your other thread but here it is via the magic of copy and paste

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17608/P1200/004608
This fault code is infamously misleading (I have lost count of the number of times I reply to this code lol)...

Basically... the ECU has seen a potential over boost event and has attempted to drop boost quickly by using the N249 to operate the DV (using the vacuum in the vacuum store as you have no vacuum under boost)... boost has not dropped quickly enough so the ECU assumes that there is a problem with the DV not working...

This code is typical if you actually do have a faulty DV, an N249 bypass, mapped car and faulty MAF

Has the code returned since the MAF was replaced?

<tuffty/>

 

[spiker]

magic of copy and paste here too:

Yeah - I have seen your replies Tufty - you are a 'beast' on this one
Yep codes cleared after MAF change and 3 runs done - 17608 came back immediately

 

[spiker]

N249 is NOT bypassed
Car is NOT mapped

btw

 

[<tuffty/>]

Ok... is it a standard black plastic DV you have?... do you get a choo, choo, choo type noise when you let off the throttle?

The N249 system looks more complex than it actually is... its designed to allow the ECU to operate the DV under boost (as there is no vacuum directly available at that time) using vacuum stored in the tank on the cam cover...

If you are still rocking the original DV I would at least consider changing that but tbh I would want to be checking why the ECU feels it needs to operate the DV at all...

In most cases fitting a new DV will fix the issue... especially as your car is not mapped... however if it persists after that then you ideally need to be logging boost related blocks to see if there is anything else going on to make the ECU feel it needs to intervene

Smoke test might be an idea... also check that the vacuum store is not compromised as if it can't hold a vacuum then it will never work properly... the pipe work is quite fragile and subject to heat and age... you could also try an N249 bypass as a temporary measure to see it that fixes the issue (simply connect the DV directly to the vacuum pipe coming out of the inlet manifold to the N249 valve)

<tuffty/>

 

[spiker]

Standard DV , visually all looks well from the outside - its clean , all pipework looks fine - clean and not showing its age
Its a BAM 2002
Mileage 31000
No fluttering - no issues/symptoms other than the fault code. I know the sound of a faulty DV with the choo - choo sound but none of that on this one

Audi quoted £43.91 for the DV - part number 06A145710N

Is it possible to reattach the new DV just using standard jubilee clips or do I need to source the type that are already being used ? ( no idea what those clips are called but they are all over the place and look like a cut down version of a jubilee)

 

[<tuffty/>]

OE clips are one time use so typically replace them with jubilee type clips... I always use JCS hi-grips personally... stainless steel and less inclined to get the click of death... jubilees or generic equivalents tend to be a little soft... not that you should tighten the DV ones too much as its plastic and have seen more than a few crushed ones

<tuffty/>

 

[spiker]

If you were going to buy a selection of these hi-grips primarily for work on the S3 - could you recommend which set from these ?

In terms of the most 'useful' sizes I may need now and going forward as I replace other pipework.....

https://www.jcshi-torque.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Assorted_Boxes_Datasheet.pdf

You probably have a good amount of experince with the most useful/common sizes for the engine

 

[<tuffty/>]

tbh mate most of my experience is with modded cars and big turbo's...

Typically you would be looking at hose ID + 6-10mm (double the wall thickness of the hose in use) so for a 60mm ID boost hose you would use a '70'..

16, 20, 25, 35, 70 are typical sizes... on 63mm ID (typical custom pipework) then maybe an 80 is a better bet

<tuffty/>

 

[spiker]

Thanks very much Tufty - I am going under the bonnet and making some rough measurements then buying a selection

JCS-hi grips look great
also looking at:
Mikalor clamps

Any experience with Mikalor http://www.mikalor.com/ ?

too heavy duty perhaps ?

 

[<tuffty/>]

t-bolt clamps?.... mikalor are a good brand but t-bolt clamps are generally crap and mostly over kill...

The have no feedback as to when they are tight as you use a spanner or a socket to do them up... 98% of boost leaks I have seen where someone has used a t-bolt is either due to then being too loose, too tight and have crushed the alloy pipes or the bridging plate is misaligned or missing...

I ran JCS clips on my S3 running 2.2bar of boost producing over 600hp... no leaks, no hoses popping off (swaging the pipes is a must in all cases)... you can tell when a JCS hi-grip is tight without finding out the hard way (click of death)

An alternative is Murray clips... these are constant tension clips and ideal for turbo/silicon applications...

One thing to remember if using new clips (especially on silicon) is to go round and retighten them once you have a few heat cycles through the hoses... they always go slack... not from loosening but from the hoses giving a bit and the clips have bed in

<tuffty/>

 

[spiker]

Great advice - thanks

 

[spiker]

You ever had that experience when you know the answer to something but then when you speak with other people about it they cast doubt on what you thought you knew - well thats me today

So I rang my local dealer for a price for the replacement DV and I gave them the code A6A145710N - as per 7Zap ( part 38 in the diagram ) - its labelled as a cut off valve.

Dealer said its not a dump valve/cut off valve and I was confused and needed a different part , So I rang a different dealer and they confused me even more

I want to change the stock DV - which as far as I know is the item circled in the picture ( please confirm ) - I have had these changed before to the forge versions but I am staying with a stock replacement for now as I dont really see the benefit

I think mine/their confusion comes from the names that are used - so can someone here clarify for me ... ?

DV= Diverter Valve = Cut off Valve = is it all the same thing ? and the item 38 in Z7ap and in my photo is the correct item ?

Many thanks

 

[<tuffty/>]

Its typically known as a diverter valve... but is sometimes referred to as a dump valve in turbo parlance...

The part number is 06A145710N (06A is a typical prefix for a 20v engine part)... the 'N' part of the number is variant or revision... N may well have been superseded by now but they will have the new number in the system...

The terminology the dealer uses varies I find... the guys Bill uses know what it is, others may be less informed...

<tuffty/>

 

[spiker]

From the perspective of the dealers then , I guess they expect the use of the name 'cut off valve'
The part number you quoted lines up with mine so I am confident I am ordering the right part
Thanks as always

 

[spiker]

What a faff - I give the dealer the part numbers for the clamps and ask them to confirm and they refuse to confirm the part numbers - they are happy to give me the price of the item but continue to refuse to confirm part numbers - even when I tell them I am looking at parts diagrams

Even after I paid...payment by BACS only from Dealers at the moment and collection only

I know the part numbers will be on the items when I collect next week but I just dont understand why they are so difficult if I am giving them the part number - its not as if I am just ringing up to find the numbers to buy elsewhere - anyway rant over

For anyone wanting to do this in the future and replace their DV on a BAM 2002 - you can quote these part numbers and price correct as of today

DV = 06A145710nX £43.91 ( Audi call this a cut off valve )
There are 3 clamps which may/may not need replacing:
Top clamp ( smaller one ) = N10091101 £1.46 ( this is the one in the picture below coming into the top of the DV)
Side pipe clamps x 2 same diameter N110258101 £4.49 x 2 ( one of these is shown in the picture coming in from the left into the DV)

Hope this saves some time for someone else in the future

 

[Asim1]

I find erdington audi dealer are more than happy to give part numbers..coventry one are also funny about it. But I suppose they have to try and make sure that you dont buy from somewhere else once you get the part number

 

[spiker]

Yeah I think it might just be the right person on the right day - Coventry Audi more than happy to confirm numbers but Northampton were not. I may have just spoke to the wrong person.

Picking up and replacing DV tomorrow ( first time ) - looks straight forward but any tips / gotchas ?

 

[Asim1]

Yeah I think it might just be the right person on the right day - Coventry Audi more than happy to confirm numbers but Northampton were not. I may have just spoke to the wrong person.

Picking up and replacing DV tomorrow ( first time ) - looks straight forward but any tips / gotchas ?

Haven't done it personally but literally looks like undoing the clips and swapping out the parts

 

[danny_dj3]

the DV is easy to do, i guess your replacing the clips as those crimp on ones are 1 time use afaik, flat screwdriver in the little gap and twist to slacken them off, or use a pair of side cutters to remove them. new clips on the pipes and then push the DV back onto the existing pipework and tighten the clips back up. i dont have the crimps for the standard clips so have used jubilee clips instead.

 

[hydro s3]

Very simple job mate you will have no problems sorting that yourself

 

[spiker]

Thanks for the confidence boost

I am just back out of bed , since I last posted I have spent the last 6 days in bed , apart from being in an ambulance on Thursday.
Covid 19 is nasty , I had symptoms a few days before but it hit me hard last Wednesday
I have no underlying health conditions , dont smoke , drink too much and I exercise every day and my BMI is under 30
Covid kicked my **** really hard , the ambulance was called because i could hardly breath and my pulse had been really high for 2 days straight and I really needed some oxygen.
I had Pneumonia 2 years ago - not sure if this contributed to it but if I were describe what Covid was like I would say a combination of food poisoning ( sickness , shaking and shivers ) with Pneumonia ( coughing , difficultly breathing , low O2 saturation ) and man flu ( sweating , temperature , shakes, aches and pains) ALL at the same time

I can see why this would kill older , less healthy people , stay safe and please continue to respect the guidelines

Any way I feel a lot better so I decided to change the DV

 

[spiker]

Ok so replacing the valve was straightforward once I figured out how to remove those single use clips ( mainly flat screwdriver and brute force )
Replaced the clips with usual jubilee clips when I swapped the valve

I did test the old valve by pushing it up from the bottom pipe and holding a vacuum with the the top pipe. When i released my finger from the top it clicked. Didnt notice s huge difference between the old one and the new one in terms of its function but I thought I was change them while I am here.

Therefore when I rescanned and then cleared the fault code 17608 I didnt have a great deal of confidence if would solve the problem
Took it for a long test - car feels so much quicker on the boost , seems zero lag and a better pull through the gears so the new one has made some difference
Rescanned back at home and the fault code is still there : 17608

Does anyone have any other suggestions - or is it a case of swapping that N249 valve next ? Could I still have a leak somewhere ?

I would appreciate any thoughts

 

[danny_dj3]

the n249 system can be removed, its FULL of brittle as feck bits that can cause leaks. mine is currently connected at the main body/plug but i have none of the vaccum box or one way diaphrams left on it. theres a guide to doing it on the 'how to' sticky page im sure. when i took mine off, i think i had about 2 good connections left on the system.

https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/how-to-n249-bypass-amk-bam-engine.197570/

 

[Asim1]

Thanks for the confidence boost

I am just back out of bed , since I last posted I have spent the last 6 days in bed , apart from being in an ambulance on Thursday.
Covid 19 is nasty , I had symptoms a few days before but it hit me hard last Wednesday
I have no underlying health conditions , dont smoke , drink too much and I exercise every day and my BMI is under 30
Covid kicked my **** really hard , the ambulance was called because i could hardly breath and my pulse had been really high for 2 days straight and I really needed some oxygen.
I had Pneumonia 2 years ago - not sure if this contributed to it but if I were describe what Covid was like I would say a combination of food poisoning ( sickness , shaking and shivers ) with Pneumonia ( coughing , difficultly breathing , low O2 saturation ) and man flu ( sweating , temperature , shakes, aches and pains) ALL at the same time

I can see why this would kill older , less healthy people , stay safe and please continue to respect the guidelines

Any way I feel a lot better so I decided to change the DV

Glad you feel better bro..look after yourself.

 

[Asim1]

Forgot to ask did you change for a oe dump valve or did you upgrade

 

[spiker]

the n249 system can be removed, its FULL of brittle as feck bits that can cause leaks. mine is currently connected at the main body/plug but i have none of the vaccum box or one way diaphrams left on it. theres a guide to doing it on the 'how to' sticky page im sure. when i took mine off, i think i had about 2 good connections left on the system.

https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/how-to-n249-bypass-amk-bam-engine.197570/

Danny - if my N249 is faulty then I am still going to get the fault code I would imagine. I read through the instuctions - they seem pretty comprehensive but are there any disadvantes to doing this ? Surely Audi put the N249 in for a reason ?

 

[spiker]

Forgot to ask did you change for a oe dump valve or did you upgrade

Asim I decided to go OE
Reasons:
1 - I have tried the Forge valves before on other S3's I have owned and I found they worked great but I wanted to get a comparision
2 - Much of the advice on here since I joined back up suggests that the stock valve is up to the job
3 - Its cheaper
4 - It may have been easier for me to replace like for like ( although having now done it would not have been an issue now - earlier valves were always changed by dealer/independant)

 

[spiker]

The only annoying thing about the change was the clip for the top hose - I gave up trying to figure out how to use those single use clips and used an oversized jubilee - what can possibly go wrong

 

[hydro s3]

Glad ur doing better mate. I'd dothe n249 delete and just keep the n249 electrical connected. Audi put that there as a reservoir for air to operate the recirc valve in a certain situation I'm not that sure on it all. I did mine and have had no problems with it and also a lot of hoses out no so minimise any boost leaks.

 

[Asim1]

Glad ur doing better mate. I'd dothe n249 delete and just keep the n249 electrical connected. Audi put that there as a reservoir for air to operate the recirc valve in a certain situation I'm not that sure on it all. I did mine and have had no problems with it and also a lot of hoses out no so minimise any boost leaks.

And looks so much better

 

[danny_dj3]

yeah, if its busted your still gonna get the code up. removing it is mainly cosmetic but does help if the pipes are on the way out. like i said, mine is still connected but basically redundant now.

 

[hydro s3]

Yes definitely looks a lot better