Still getting used to S-Tronic

[Jemster]

Does anybody else find 7 gears just seems to be too much?

I've noticed when driving around in standard 'D' auto mode the car seems more than happy to keep changing gear. It's almost like it's showing off how smoothly it can do it!

Like, if I'm toddling along at 30 and drop to 28 it decides it's time for M4, but the moment I'm back up to 33, it's into M5.

If I'm cruising around 50 it seems to oscillate between D5 and D6. The other day on the motorway at 70-75 it seemed very reluctant to get into D7 and much preferred to drop into D6 at the merest hint that an incline may be on the way.

It's only just noticeable but kinda takes away from the smoothness when this happens too often. Obviously the cure is to go into manual mode, but do others notice this? Is it a feature of s-tronic? Is there an issue with my box (ooerrr missus) Should I expect it to improve when the gearbox oil is changed tomorrow?

 

[jetty]

I've driven a few (seen as my A6 spends most of its time at Audi!) - haven't noticed they change much. Usually in 7th most of the time which I presume is for fuel consumption.
My A6 has 8 gears and 50mph+ is in 7th/8th.

Only time I notice they change up and down all the time is if you're in sport mode ?

 

[scotty76]

Yeah that seems weird. My 2014 aims for D7 all the time and stays there as long as possible, there's no "hunting" between gears. Hopefully not a fault coming up?

 

[Jemster]

Hope not. Though with 2 warranties in place, it’s better sooner than later.

Hard to know when it’s the first s-tronic I’ve owned. It feels fine most of the time, no unwanted hesitation, it may be perfectly ok, just a bit stupid on its times to change and that may take some getting used to.


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[scotty76]

It takes a bit of getting used to but I love it for my traffic laden commute. Try...

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?t=5989734

 

[deanosabby]

Had my A4 dynamik now for about 6 weeks and it is my first S-tronic car. It heads straight to D7 as soon as it can and never hunts for gears, usually in D5 by the time I am at 30mph and pretty sure it will be in D7 by 40ish.

 

[Jemster]

@deanosabby that’s interesting. Mine has hardly ever hit D7 except on the motorway. Is yours a 2.0 tdi quattro too?

Leaving it in to the garage for the oil change this morning, will report back if it’s any different afterwards. Is there a way of resetting the box perhaps?


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[deanosabby]

2.0TFSI Jemster.

 

[Jemster]

2.0TFSI Jemster.

Wouldn't the gear ratios be different for a different engine? Or is it the same box with a different final drive? This would make a difference as to what point each gear change is made at.

I'll keep an eye on it when it's back to see if I can work out where the changes are happening. It's not like it's "hunting" for gears continually, it just doesn't feel settled in a gear. The smallest variations in incline / throttle position / road speed seem to be constantly making unnecessary changes.

To put it in perspective, my last car was an '05 BMW M3 SMG. The SMG system was a single-clutch automated-manual gearbox. I'd never drive it on auto (unless stuck in traffic) as it was terrible at guessing gears. But once in a gear it did stick to it unless a large amount of throttle was applied. Is there perhaps a throttle adaptation reset procedure? Maybe the previous driver had a very different style of driving.

 

[Dippy]

I don't know for sure but I would expect the gearbox mapping to be different for each engine it is mated to. D7 is an overdrive gear so is intended for cruising. I would expect that a car with a smaller engine which has some level of loading might not change up to D7 when a car with a bigger engine does. Certainly my S5 will quickly get to D7. Mine does not constantly change gear, and I have never understood the criticism of s-tronic that it is "hunting for the right gear". But I do agree that the shift points may not be correct for UK roads. I do find that if I am driving gently in a 30mph zone which then changes to a higher limit, it appears that when I accelerate slightly the gearbox decides to change up at exactly that moment and I end up staying at the same speed.

 

[WOJ]

Well I'm fresh owner of s4 with s tronic and learning myself in and outs of the gearbox. When in "D" mode and crusing at 30-35mph my car is already in D6 without any "hunting" for gears. Gear changes happen quick and smooth. Never yet seen to get up to D7. But on motorway cruise if you stick cruise control on, car will instantly be in D7 as it's from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) crusing gear.

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[jdp1962]

But on motorway cruise if you stick cruise control on, car will instantly be in D7 as it's from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) crusing gear.

Yes, @WOJ, you're right. Regardless of what mode the S-Tronic box is in, if you put cruise control on, it behaves as though in D mode and moves up to 7th gear.

 

[Jemster]

Strange. Maybe it’s something to do with engine and drive ratios, mine being the 177 tdi. If I’m sitting in the 30-35 range I’ll be in either 4th or 5th. If it’s made it to 5th and I give it a little throttle, it’ll immediately be back in 4th again. When driving home tonight at 50 it was mainly in 6th but occasionally I’d notice it drop to 5th for inclines.

I wondered if dpf regens have anything to do with gear selection - is it trying to force conditions for a regen perhaps? There’s nothing that I can put my finger on to say it’s wrong - changes are silky smooth and I’ve not suffered any hesitancy. I’m just aware of these small changes as it swaps gears. Economy also isn’t great, I didn’t expect wonders given that I make shortish trips, but it wouldn’t be helped if the box is keeping it In the wrong gear.


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[WOJ]

I drove for quick shop this evening and what I spotted is that if I accelerate bit harder in D and then easy of on the throttle car will jump in to D7 but as soon as there will be slight incline etc.. it will go back to D6. So in order to get it back to D7 I have to accelerate bit harder it's jumps to D5 or even D4/3 and then when done I easy off the throttle to the point I drive on "torque" and gearbox goes back to D7.

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[happytalk73]

Strange. Maybe it’s something to do with engine and drive ratios, mine being the 177 tdi. If I’m sitting in the 30-35 range I’ll be in either 4th or 5th. If it’s made it to 5th and I give it a little throttle, it’ll immediately be back in 4th again. When driving home tonight at 50 it was mainly in 6th but occasionally I’d notice it drop to 5th for inclines.

I wondered if dpf regens have anything to do with gear selection - is it trying to force conditions for a regen perhaps? There’s nothing that I can put my finger on to say it’s wrong - changes are silky smooth and I’ve not suffered any hesitancy. I’m just aware of these small changes as it swaps gears. Economy also isn’t great, I didn’t expect wonders given that I make shortish trips, but it wouldn’t be helped if the box is keeping it In the wrong gear.


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Agreed. I expect the DCT S Tronic box will behave differently with petrol and Diesel engines given the low down torque of diesel.

 

[WOJ]

@Jemster Before S4 I had A6 with the same engine 2.0 TDI 177HP but with MT and fuel efficiency wasn't great either for the diesel. I know it's bigger car but on short trips it was averaging around 36mpg and on motorway cruise at 70-75mph returned max 42mpg.

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[V6_Man]

I believe and as @Dippy said above the adaptations are different for different engine types. I recently drove an A1 and an A3 (newer models as courtesy cars for two week and both petrols) with S-tropic boxes and I agree with @Jemster that they would downshift as soon as there was a slight hint of slope or they identified a small change to the throttle response. And whilst it is the same ‘concept and technology’ the DSG on my S4 now feels a completely different gearbox to S-tronic. S-tronic feels more slushy and soft and ready to upshift / downshift whereas DSG feels more like an manual auto box regardless of whether it is in D or S or M.


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[Jemster]

@WOJ - I’ve just managed 28mpg on my first tank. I know the cold weather has a fair bit to do with it, but I was hoping for mid-30s. I could get 21-22 out of the M3 on the same daily routes! It does take a heck of a long time for the temperature gauge to get mid-way, like 10 miles I’d say, but again... diesels... cold weather... not great...

There’s no fault codes showing (Carista), think I’ll try a tank using the paddles and see if I can improve on that.

 

[jetty]

I've just picked up a brand new A4 2.0TDi courtesy (my A6 gearbox has taken a dump!). Anyway, it heads for D7 in both economy and dynamic mode. The only time it changed down was when I either floored it or knocked it into sport.

 

[Dippy]

I believe and as @Dippy said above the adaptations are different for different engine types. I recently drove an A1 and an A3 (newer models as courtesy cars for two week and both petrols) with S-tropic boxes and I agree with @Jemster that they would downshift as soon as there was a slight hint of slope or they identified a small change to the throttle response. And whilst it is the same ‘concept and technology’ the DSG on my S4 now feels a completely different gearbox to S-tronic. S-tronic feels more slushy and soft and ready to upshift / downshift whereas DSG feels more like an manual auto box regardless of whether it is in D or S or M.

You are absolutely right. DSG/s-tronic just refers to the concept of a dual clutch automatic gearbox, and in reality they can be built in different ways. Of course the key difference is how they are mated to engines in longitudinal (A4+) and transverse (A3-) engined cars. In the latter space is a premium and I cannot believe that there have to be compromises in design. In a way I would be surprised if they didn't feel different to drive. I don't have any experience of s-tronic in A3s or A1s, but I do of Porsche DSGs and they feel different.

 

[GaryP]

I believe and as @Dippy said above the adaptations are different for different engine types. I recently drove an A1 and an A3 (newer models as courtesy cars for two week and both petrols) with S-tropic boxes and I agree with @Jemster that they would downshift as soon as there was a slight hint of slope or they identified a small change to the throttle response. And whilst it is the same ‘concept and technology’ the DSG on my S4 now feels a completely different gearbox to S-tronic. S-tronic feels more slushy and soft and ready to upshift / downshift whereas DSG feels more like an manual auto box regardless of whether it is in D or S or M.


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Is your S4 not an S-Tronic box??

 

[V6_Man]

It is @GaryP but the DSG in an S4 feels more like a VW-esq, i.e. the same as a Golf MK7 imo. Whereas the S-tronic is more slushy - a bit too soft for my liking and every time I have put it in D or S it has felt that it will be very easy to slip. Not that it has but it does give you the feel. As Dippy said and I think too that whilst the concept and tech is the same they are built slightly differently to different engine types.


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[Jemster]

I don’t think there’s much ‘slushy’ about s-tronic. My old 330d tiptronic... now that was slushy . Aren’t DSG/s-tronic/DCT all just marketing terms for the same thing? Once the clutch (wet or dry) is engaged, it’s a hard link like any manual box. I think I know what you mean about the feel, but doesn’t it come down more to the engine and lag on throttle response. The 2.0tdi vs. my old M3 would almost make me think it was slush but really it’s just turbo spool up creating the lag.

As for the never getting to D7 issue, I think it’s the low gearing combined with throttle response causing it. 60 will get into D7 and if I hit the cruise it will maintain it, but driving it off cruise, the slightest throttle increase makes it drop back to D6. Bit of a shame, but perhaps the gearchange penalty isn’t so bad on s-tronic vs. manual?

 

[Jemster]

As a brief update... I’ve just been on my first 200 mile round trip, 165 of it being 65-80mph cruising. 2 people in the car on the way down, 4 on the way back.

I’m still feeling like it’s changing unnecessarily, if the speed drops to 65, no matter how gently I try to get back to 70 it’ll hop into D6 even though D7 is at approx. 1750rpm. I am also feeling some hesitancy / roughness when cruising at these speeds that I will have to look into.

Most disappointing thing was a (DIS measured) 38.7mpg over the entire trip. I could get 31 from the M3 so to be quite honest, that is woeful. I also used to get 44 out of my ‘00 330d auto so is this really Normal or not? I was expecting high 40’s, perhaps even touching 50 given I wasn’t cruising at 60 but was being light on the throttle and using cruise as much as possible.

What can I look at with the hesitancy? If it’s down on power that may explain the unwanted changes, but flooring it feels quick enough... it is due a fuel filter in the next couple of k miles, but don’t know if that would be felt??

 

[RyanJonS4]

38mpg is way more than I’ve ever seen on a run, I’ve never had anything that begins with a 3!

I think cruise control will be costing you a little, a carefully modulated right foot is more economical.

As for the changing down, I’m not sure if mine does or not, I’ll have to test it out. I would think that due to 7 being such a long gear and almost like an overdrive gear, it’s probably more economical to drop a gear when accelerating as higher gear/ less rpm doesn’t always mean less fuel used

 

[Jemster]

I’d like to think the mpg of an S4 is going to be considerably worse than a 2.0 tdi quattro

 

[RyanJonS4]

I’d like to think the mpg of an S4 is going to be considerably worse than a 2.0 tdi quattro

Ahhhh, yes so would I!

The mrs has a 2.0 tdi Quattro soft top. I know it’s going to be lighter than an A4 but she averages in the 50’s!

I’d say you should be getting higher figures than that but it could be any one of a number of things. I’d start with a good service and have the fault codes read.

 

[Jemster]

I assume the soft top is something smaller? A3?

 

[RyanJonS4]

I assume the soft top is something smaller? A3?

It’s a TT, it’s probably not that much lighter than an a4. It’s haldex so that helps with mpg as it spends most of its time in fwd. is yours Quattro?

 

[Jemster]

Yeah, it’s a ‘15 177hp tdi quattro and Just had it’s 38k service by the supplying garage so only really an oil change and s-tronic oil changed. Should have the fuel filter done. I read the codes a couple of weeks back and it didn’t show anything of interest. I’ll do it again tomorrow if I get the chance.

 

[Jemster]

Interestingly today I noticed if I cruise in manual at 55 in D6 it indicates I should change up. If I do, and while in D7 increase to about 65 and then flick it into drive, it changes down to D6. Weird weird weird. I can feel a New Year trip to Audi coming on. It does get into D7 but it’s really keen on getting back into D6 when left to its own devices.

Did manage 39.7mpg on another long run, so getting slightly better...

 

[Dippy]

I would think that due to 7 being such a long gear and almost like an overdrive gear

Not almost, it definitely IS an overdrive gear!

@Jemster - I really don't know the figures for my car, but it feels to me that you are being over-sensitive on this D6/D7 issue. Until I check how mine behaves at those speeds I'd be ready to believe that what you have noticed is correct. We'd really need feedback from another TDI owner because for sure I'd expect your gearbox mapping to be different from mine.

However if you sense "roughness" then you should get it checked. I am continually impressed with just how smooth my transmission is.

 

[Jemster]

Oh the roughness certainly isn’t in the gear change. That’s very smooth indeed. It was just the engine feeling a little hesitant on my long trip while cruising. However, it went for another long journey yesterday and was faultless. No feeling of holding back.

I guess I find the hoping around the gears slightly annoying at the moment as it means constant adjustment of throttle to keep cruising. Like, the throttle position to maintain 70 in D7 is different from D6 at the same speed. So if it decides to change, then I need to compensate. I guess it’s simply a matter of getting used to it, but a little strange.

 

[Jemster]

So here’s a perfect example of what happens. Today I was coming out of Belfast up the M2 motorway hill in traffic moving at about 65mph. For those who don’t know the road, it’s a continuous uphill section for about 2 miles.

At 65 it would change into D7. However, due to the Hill it would lose speed. Applying a little more throttle would cause it to change down into D6. Speed would approach 65 again, I’d back off the throttle a little and it would change into D7. Guess what. Not enough power in D7 at that throttle so it starts to lose speed (I’m talking just a little, say 64mph), apply a little throttle to compensate and it drops again to D6. Gahhh!!!

Repeatedly! Eventually I gave up and kicked it into manual M7 and of course had no difficulty with the hill staying in gear. This seems completely nuts. I can see me and s-tronic are going to have a large falling out, which is a massive shame as I’ve got 4 years of living with it. Smooth and stoopid by the looks of things. Maybe there’s a software update...

 

[Dippy]

Sorry but that seems like correct operation. No automatic system, including a gearbox, can meet the requirements of every person under all possible conditions.

Sometime when I have selected dynamic but am temporarily travelling through a low speed limit zone I don't bother switching the 'box to D. As a result it might be in a lower gear than I'd prefer to be in. However it is correct because I have told it to be dynamic. Sometimes I speed up slightly just to make it change up.

You are right - if automatic doesn't suit you, change to manual!

 

[GaryP]

@Tashfeen you've got me a little baffled. Which S-Tronics are you saying are Slushy? You say your S4, which is S-Tronic, feels good to you, but also saying S-Tronics feel slushy. Are you meaning that S-Stronics on lesser performance models feel slushy? All the S4's I've driven recently felt nice and tight/responsive.

Now my A180d is slushy!! In fact it's worse than slushy!

 

[Jemster]

Sorry but that seems like correct operation. No automatic system, including a gearbox, can meet the requirements of every person under all possible conditions.

Sometime when I have selected dynamic but am temporarily travelling through a low speed limit zone I don't bother switching the 'box to D. As a result it might be in a lower gear than I'd prefer to be in. However it is correct because I have told it to be dynamic. Sometimes I speed up slightly just to make it change up.

You are right - if automatic doesn't suit you, change to manual!

If a 2005 SMG BMW M3 in auto mode can do it, I’m very surprised a 10 year newer, far more advanced, dual clutch system doesn’t have the brains to cruise up a hill at a constant speed without all this faffing about. With no Drive Select on my car I can’t tell it to be anything other than Sporty or Drivey

I’m hunting around the ‘net for similar issues and I’m not seeing anything being reported which makes me think there’s something a little wrong with my setup. Coupled with the poor mpg (36.5 on a tank consisting of 320+ miles of well warmed up motorway 65-75 runs) this would make me think all is not good in da hood...

 

[Dippy]

That wasn't exactly my point, but you have just given that nail a firm strike! You are comparing how an M3 performs to a 2.0TDI. I have just been taxi dad again and I paid attention to how my s-tonic operates between D6 and D7. It changed up to D7 at about 48mph and stayed there even with significant acceleration and also when going uphill. It would only change to D6 when the speed reduced to about 40mph. So the mapping of the gearbox is taking the engine load into account. Obviously Audi decided that the mapping for a 3.TFSI should be different from that on a 2.0TDI.

Clearly on your car the designers made a decision about the gearbox map which means that to maintain 65mph on that hill it should be in D6. However if there is no hysteresis applied (as there clearly is in how mine acted today), then I'd agree that seems wrong. I guess it is possible that you could have something like a sensor fault which affects how the gearchanges are operating? Or if your previous feelings of the engine being "hesitant" indicate that it is not performing correctly then that might mean it is not handling the load in high gear as it should?

 

[Klickflip]

@WOJ - I’ve just managed 28mpg on my first tank. I know the cold weather has a fair bit to do with it, but I was hoping for mid-30s. I could get 21-22 out of the M3 on the same daily routes! It does take a heck of a long time for the temperature gauge to get mid-way, like 10 miles I’d say, but again... diesels... cold weather... not great...

There’s no fault codes showing (Carista), think I’ll try a tank using the paddles and see if I can improve on that.

28mpg average is good! - Same 2.0TFSI (Quattro) S -Tronic here, MPG is pretty bad especially in cold weather . I’ve seen a big dip recently , more so on longer runs tho.
My tank/ running average is around 26mpg unless I’ve done loads of motorway miles that month.
Currently getting 14-20mpg on city driving and 31 mpg is the best I’ve got on gentle motorway runs over the Xmas hols .
- normally I get 32- 38mpg on motorway runs depending on traffic.

I am trying to see if you can get better mpg for town driving using M paddles, and letting engine rev a bit more, as I feel it changes up gear too early in normal D, and might not be getting engine up to temp quick enough and not efficient enough if it’s struggling a touch in a higher gear.
- however I LOVE the auto for city driving now, and the paddles when out on open roads for overtaking.

Now for your auto box gear selections issue, - maybe get the gearbox oil and filter change done, it’s only £225 at Audi. It was the first thing I did when I got mine. And has made it smoother , tho the first few days after the oil change it did the ‘adaption’ thing and that is exactly as you are describing .. then it settled down.

I’ll often knock it into sport or manual or use paddles to keep in a constant or lower gear when in town , to save it changing up then Down all the time.
I feel that should be saving its life when there’s no point it going to 4th or 5th when I’m only going to be slowing down at the next traffic lights or speed bump in 200 yards.

 

[Jemster]

28mpg average is good! - Same 2.0TFSI (Quattro) S -Tronic here, MPG is pretty bad especially in cold weather . I’ve seen a big dip recently , more so on longer runs tho.
My tank/ running average is around 26mpg unless I’ve done loads of motorway miles that month.
Currently getting 14-20mpg on city driving and 31 mpg is the best I’ve got on gentle motorway runs over the Xmas hols .
- normally I get 32- 38mpg on motorway runs depending on traffic.

Well... not Quite the same engine! Mine's the 2.0 TDI, not the TFSI. But interesting to hear the TFSI gets the same economy on a motorway run as my dirty derv is!

Now for your auto box gear selections issue, - maybe get the gearbox oil and filter change done, it’s only £225 at Audi. It was the first thing I did when I got mine. And has made it smoother , tho the first few days after the oil change it did the ‘adaption’ thing and that is exactly as you are describing .. then it settled down.

I had the oil change done 2 weeks ago. I haven't noticed any difference in it's characteristics since the change, but then, I hadn't had the car very long and it always seems to have had this slight inclination to change for no good reason.

That wasn't exactly my point, but you have just given that nail a firm strike! You are comparing how an M3 performs to a 2.0TDI. I have just been taxi dad again and I paid attention to how my s-tonic operates between D6 and D7. It changed up to D7 at about 48mph and stayed there even with significant acceleration and also when going uphill. It would only change to D6 when the speed reduced to about 40mph. So the mapping of the gearbox is taking the engine load into account. Obviously Audi decided that the mapping for a 3.TFSI should be different from that on a 2.0TDI.

Clearly on your car the designers made a decision about the gearbox map which means that to maintain 65mph on that hill it should be in D6. However if there is no hysteresis applied (as there clearly is in how mine acted today), then I'd agree that seems wrong. I guess it is possible that you could have something like a sensor fault which affects how the gearchanges are operating? Or if your previous feelings of the engine being "hesitant" indicate that it is not performing correctly then that might mean it is not handling the load in high gear as it should?

Sorry @Dippy I thought I'd replied. I have started forming a theory that it may be related to the emissions update, which the car had applied last June well before I bought it. What I was thinking is that I've read the emissions update could potentially be causing losses of power at low revs (<2000rpm) but of course, information is few and far between and far from conclusive. BUT It would match perfectly with my current experiences - if s-tronic hasn't been updated to take account of the (supposed) difference in low-end power, it would think D7 was ok with this load at this speed. When the engine fails to give the required power and more throttle is required, s-tronic thinks I'm trying to accelerate away and drops a gear.

All I gotta do is find a way of proving that one! Hahahaha