CAN/loom socket pin termination type?

[wuta3]

Hi all,

I am trying to identify the pin type in the square black connector in the LHS A-pillar. Specifically the extended CAN pins. Both male and female, and what to search for to buy some.
I ordered every set of VAG loom connection termination types I could find on Amazon and none of them are correct.

I ordered a direct TPMS kit from eBay and the tap for the extended CAN came with female terminations to re-pin the socket, but the terminations were not right. They fit the socket, but are for round thin pins. The plug's male pins are wider and crush the female pins on the loom (or push them out).
I need to re-terminate the tap of the TPMS loom with the correct female termination so it isn't a bodge job with crushed terminations and fouled male pins.

Annoyingly the range of terminations I ordered came with 20 of these female terminations that fit the socket, but accept thinner pins.

Is there a PN for these?

Summoning using a magic incantation @DJAlix before I absolutely give up. I've not even got to the "No communication" errors in VCDS yet (despite testing continuity to the module via the backside of the socket).

 

[DJAlix]

Am not sure what the part number of these pins is to be honest, can find out, but why not connect to the extended CAN at the gateway as use 009 pins? You could also splice in to the existing wiring.

 

[wuta3]

Am not sure what the part number of these pins is to be honest, can find out, but why not connect to the extended CAN at the gateway as use 009 pins? You could also splice in to the existing wiring.

I *think* I found the part number by basically buying every Audi termination that LOOKED similar but isn't. Not the best strategy. I think it is 000.979.034E (for the repair wire, using this ID to identify the termination) and the package tomorrow will tell me.

I am not making up a loom, I am just re-pinning a tap loom that came with the kit. I also have never done anything electrical ever, but I am learning as I go.

Anyway the loom came with 000.979.009E type terminations (female) which are nearly correct, but not quite, so the male pins deform in the connector.

I don't want to modify my OE loom or connectors, but am comfortable either tapping the extended CAN by re-terminating my OE wire with a fresh female termination and putting both wires in there .. OR modifying the loom with male pins to match the female OE CAN, and taking a cable from the male pins and terminating them female with the right connector ... ideally the latter leaving the OE loom totally unchanged.

Required because when using the female fly leads from the tap, the male OE pins crushed their incorrect connector.

Anyway, I am making it up as I go and doing my best. I'll take other strategies and pointers ... but I have connectors, a crimper and a whole load of stupidity ready to go.

 

[DJAlix]

I think you are over thinking it. Use the tap / “add-in loop” that came with your kit at the gateway, located under steering column, or just splice in to the CAN wires at the junction point in the footwell.

I myself splice in to the gateway, ground to a chassis / factory post and power from the fuse box.

 

[wuta3]

I think you are over thinking it. Use the tap / “add-in loop” that came with your kit at the gateway, located under steering column, or just splice in to the CAN wires at the junction point in the footwell.

I myself splice in to the gateway, ground to a chassis / factory post and power from the fuse box.

I am probably over complicating to cover myself from any errors. I don't want to splice into the OE looms if I am not doing so at a connector.

I'll look into the CAN gateway, that sounds useful ... I think the loom is long enough. Does the CAN gateway have "spare" spins for the can buses?

 

[DJAlix]

I am probably over complicating to cover myself from any errors. I don't want to splice into the OE looms if I am not doing so at a connector.

I'll look into the CAN gateway, that sounds useful ... I think the loom is long enough. Does the CAN gateway have "spare" spins for the can buses?

There will be no spare slots but the connector housing uses the same 009 pins as your “add-in tap”. It’s also the source of all networks so connecting there insures speed and connectivity.

 

[wuta3]

That's brilliant info, I will look into this as I have a load of those terminations spare, male and female.
Useful info for debugging the comms issues I have been having with the TPMS antenna too.

Thank you

 

[wuta3]

Sellers of aftermarket looms, terminations, and cables compatible with VAG repair wire 000979034E are terminating them incorrectly or supplying incorrect terminations. Using these items without checking can damage your OE loom and connectors, as well as things like shorting CAN High to CAN Low.

I got bit by this buying an aftermarket TPMS retrofit loom for my Audi RS3. I set out to purchase a termination which was correct, then fell down a deep rabbit hole of VAG repair wire part numbers, termination and socket standandards, manufacturers and shady cheap termination suppliers who ultimately supply eBay loom makers and Amazon parts kits.

1. Audi repair wire 000979034E is an MCON1.2 Locking Lance termination on the female side. The smaller contacts in the black/red/white sockets in the A pillar (a common loom tap location for things like CETE valve controllers, Start/Stop button controllers) are all MCON1.2
   
   
2. VAG list part numbers for some terminations, and not for others. Often they specify part numbers for the male contact, but not the female. Sometimes the only reference for a type of termination is the "repair wire" VAG sell with that termination.
   
3. Many cheap suppliers of small quantities of termination are sending out MQS terminators instead of MCON1.2 LL terminators. 4 different orders (eBay, Amazon) of terminations claming to be compatible with Audi repair wire 000979034E came back as tiny little Dupont terminations!
   
   
4. Product images on many Russian, Chinese, Middle Eastern wholesalers of wire terminations show random images of either MCON or MQS or sometimes MCP when advertising terminations compatible with VAG repair wire 000979034E
   
   
5. While MQS and MCON contacts of the same size will fit the socket securely and fill the socket's void for that pin number, they do NOT mate the same. The MQS termination accepts a square small pin around 0.5mm whereas the MCON pin is flat and 1mm wide by 0.25mm thick. The termination cross section of both is around 1.8mm. Superficially, they also look very similar.
   
   
   
   

Conclusion
One or more suppliers of cheap bulk terminations is advertising / selling MQS where they should be selling MCON. This is making its way down to loom makers, third-party aftermarket retrofit kit suppliers, cheap "pack of 10" termination suppliers and so on.
There is likely a single root cause for this, but as people are not checking every loom made fits the connector they think it does, it is easy to miss the problem. I think a supplier is doing this due to a supply issue they're having getting MCON terminations. I am inferring this because from cheap Chinese sources, when I ordered MCON often the order didn't ship and I had to cancel it. Or it turned up with MQS. Some "retailers" at the end of the chain have spotted the issue and just don't ship the incorrect MQS. Others have not noticed and you get MQS. Some loom makers have not noticed and just terminate MQS.

If you want MCON or MQS connectors, you can get them cheaper from Farnell in the UK. Where I spent £3-£6 on 10-20 supposed "000979034E compatible" terminations from Amazon, eBay, Aliexpress and got the wrong product, you can order small quantities for £0.008-£0.05 per unit from Farnell depending on if you want tin, silver or gold plated.

MQS Female Data Sheet

MCON1.2 LL Female

 

[8YARWY]

On my old 8V I spliced the can H/L into the cable in the junction post area when I retrofitted TPMS, never had any issues in 3 years of ownership after fitting it.


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[flybynite]

On my old 8V I spliced the can H/L into the cable in the junction post area when I retrofitted TPMS, never had any issues in 3 years of ownership after fitting it.

I get that but I have to admit I do like to do things so they look like they come out of the factory, even if you can't see them.

It is a bit like old scotchlocks, can't deny I have never used them in the past, some things of mine with them on are still going strong 40 years later but they are generally the bane of my life on other things and I would not let one near a good car.

Did a bit of MIL-spec aerospace and motorsport wiring in my youth and it taught me a lot

 

[wuta3]

I'm the same @flybynite , and honestly, geeking out into the fine details of contact specifications is half of the fun.

I just think it is insane that loom makers of retrofits AND people supplying unwired contacts are selling the wrong type under a VAG part number, especially when they'll damage the OE male pins and potentially short.

Im making a table so you can lookup the contact specification from "repair wire" VAG part numbers or the part number of the plastic connector. Then actually buy the right thing at a reasonable price.

 

[8YARWY]

Lol it’s 2 canbus wires.

So when I fitted it, it looked like 2 wires coming off each terminal instead of 1.

When it was done and all taped back up, you couldn’t tell.

You are really overthinking this…..


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[wuta3]

Lol it’s 2 canbus wires.

So when I fitted it, it looked like 2 wires coming off each terminal instead of 1.

When it was done and all taped back up, you couldn’t tell.

You are really overthinking this…..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I mean, to each their own, but I would rather not modify my OE loom when there's no real reason to.

Also CAN is a two wire protocol that is very susceptable to interference (which is why they're usually a twisted pair). A poor connection will cause a lot of re-sync in the protocol, slow bus speeds and all sorts.

I am happy for you that you are happy to do it one way, but I get enjoyment from gaining knowledge and doing the job what I consider the right way ... which is subjective. I'm an engineer, so the right way for me is to use the correct terminations that fit the socket and the pin, don't break anything, are durable, insulated and won't cause issues for other devices on the bus (even if those issues are mostly not noticed from the driving seat).

This simple job has taught me the CAN protocol, the various connections used across most auto makers, how to properly crimp cables, how to use a multimeter for the first time (I don't usually do electrics), how to use VCDS, what buses are in the car and what devices are on them, .... and so much more.

If I just did what I consider a botch job and twisted some wires together ... I wouldn't learn all that and if anything started having issues I wouldn't be in a position to debug. Then I would fail my MOT because of the TPMS warning.

We all have our own way of doing things, value judgements are not helpful and add nothing to the conversation. One person's overthinking is another's learning. I'd just pay someone to do it for me if the journey wasn't important.

Also as DJAlix said, there are alternatives using the terminations I have, such as the CAN bus. But I am the type of person who, when I want to know something, I find out. I wanted to know why I couldn't buy the right termination simply. So I found out and shared the information. Take it or leave it.

If I were buying the car, I would rather the work was done by an "overthinking" over-engineering nerd type than anything else. So I do things that way.

 

[8YARWY]

I mean, to each their own, but I would rather not modify my OE loom when there's no real reason to.

Also CAN is a two wire protocol that is very susceptable to interference (which is why they're usually a twisted pair). A poor connection will cause a lot of re-sync in the protocol, slow bus speeds and all sorts.

I am happy for you that you are happy to do it one way, but I get enjoyment from gaining knowledge and doing the job what I consider the right way ... which is subjective. I'm an engineer, so the right way for me is to use the correct terminations that fit the socket and the pin, don't break anything, are durable, insulated and won't cause issues for other devices on the bus (even if those issues are mostly not noticed from the driving seat).

This simple job has taught me the CAN protocol, the various connections used across most auto makers, how to properly crimp cables, how to use a multimeter for the first time (I don't usually do electrics), how to use VCDS, what buses are in the car and what devices are on them, .... and so much more.

If I just did what I consider a botch job and twisted some wires together ... I wouldn't learn all that and if anything started having issues I wouldn't be in a position to debug. Then I would fail my MOT because of the TPMS warning.

We all have our own way of doing things, value judgements are not helpful and add nothing to the conversation. One person's overthinking is another's learning. I'd just pay someone to do it for me if the journey wasn't important.

Also as DJAlix said, there are alternatives using the terminations I have, such as the CAN bus. But I am the type of person who, when I want to know something, I find out. I wanted to know why I couldn't buy the right termination simply. So I found out and shared the information. Take it or leave it.

If I were buying the car, I would rather the work was done by an "overthinking" over-engineering nerd type than anything else. So I do things that way.

Yup, fully aware of what the canbus wires are like and why they are twisted as opposed to 'just run side by side'

I'm not knocking you at all, it's good that you care enough to learn about something.

All i was saying is i spliced the can H/L wires into the passenger footwell connector block and never had any issues with any systems on the car.

In fact the only error i would constantly get was related to the Ghost Immo in the cluster, did it bother me ? no because once i knew why it occurred i was comfortable with it.

Also don't forget if you are indeed doing this as per a factory install, then the Module is mounted outside the car at the rear just forward of the bumper on the drivers side, I didn't go this route, as i think a module outside the car underneath exposed to the uk elements isn't the best idea, so i mounted mine in the rear behind the 12v socket panel in the boot, it was out of sight and more importantly safe from the uk weather.

 

[DJAlix]

I mean, to each their own, but I would rather not modify my OE loom when there's no real reason to.

Also CAN is a two wire protocol that is very susceptable to interference (which is why they're usually a twisted pair). A poor connection will cause a lot of re-sync in the protocol, slow bus speeds and all sorts.

I am happy for you that you are happy to do it one way, but I get enjoyment from gaining knowledge and doing the job what I consider the right way ... which is subjective. I'm an engineer, so the right way for me is to use the correct terminations that fit the socket and the pin, don't break anything, are durable, insulated and won't cause issues for other devices on the bus (even if those issues are mostly not noticed from the driving seat).

This simple job has taught me the CAN protocol, the various connections used across most auto makers, how to properly crimp cables, how to use a multimeter for the first time (I don't usually do electrics), how to use VCDS, what buses are in the car and what devices are on them, .... and so much more.

If I just did what I consider a botch job and twisted some wires together ... I wouldn't learn all that and if anything started having issues I wouldn't be in a position to debug. Then I would fail my MOT because of the TPMS warning.

We all have our own way of doing things, value judgements are not helpful and add nothing to the conversation. One person's overthinking is another's learning. I'd just pay someone to do it for me if the journey wasn't important.

Also as DJAlix said, there are alternatives using the terminations I have, such as the CAN bus. But I am the type of person who, when I want to know something, I find out. I wanted to know why I couldn't buy the right termination simply. So I found out and shared the information. Take it or leave it.

If I were buying the car, I would rather the work was done by an "overthinking" over-engineering nerd type than anything else. So I do things that way.

Not sure if I should be offended by this or not!

When you look at what I offer on my menu of retrofits you will find it’s more limited than other “professionals”. This is because I won’t offer a “service” until it’s been tried and tested as 1) I like to do things correctly and 2) I don’t want the vehicle to come back unless the owner is having more retrofit or coding works. I hate issues. I love a challenge but I really feel like crap if something goes wrong.

Splicing in to CAN and indeed any wiring is an industry standard practice. Obviously if connector slots are free these would be used instead but splicing, and splicing correctly is way more “secure” than using any “add-in loop” or tap as using one of these is just adding a potential point of failure to the circuit. Each to their own, and indeed credit and respect for what you are doing but my advice of “splice at the gateway” is based on years of professional experience and after completing extensive testing, with ZERO issues. The CAN gateway is where all the CAN networks originate from, and joining anything at “source” is always king.

Once again, nothing but respect for your project and wanting to learn.

 

[flybynite]

From what I know and have learned in the past, listening to these guys, they seem to talk sense and know what they are talking about.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dl7kXnkURM

 

[JohnS3]

@wuta3 you might find this link interesting, possibly more interesting if you read it sooner! It’s in German but it’s invaluable pin and connector information.

A4-Freunde.COMmunity - Dein Forum zum Thema Audi A4

Deine Community fuer und ueber den Audi A4. Besuche unsere Seite unter http://www.a4-freunde.com

www.a4-freunde.com

 

[JohnS3]

And some more bedtime reading for you.

Stecker und Reparaturkabel

 

[wuta3]

To be clear, I wasn't offended. I was just noting that everyone has their own way of doing things.

@DJAlix I do intend on going to the CAN gateway, if nothing else to debug any issues with the tap at the connector or the third-party loom provided by the TPMS kit seller. I totally hear what you're saying and agree. I mainly couldn't stand the fact that it seemed VERY difficult to purchase a termination to crimp, the information was useful but not readily available, and that due to this, many loom makers are using the wrong terminations. A side-quest on the way to the TPMS installation if you like. The issue isn't the best method of installation, the issue is there's hundereds of MCON1.2 terminations in our cars and it was very difficult to cheaply get a replacement, or even order them at all without being sent MQS terminations instead!

My response was mainly to @8YARWY whose comment that I was "overthinking it" seemed slightly mocking but also misunderstood the fact that as a weirdo, I quite enjoy the small challenges that setting additional constraints on a project throws up. I want to do this without modification of any OE loom wires. I ran into an issue with termination identification so I looked into solving that challenge.

The fact is, unless someone does this leg work, people are going to keep crushing pins following the instructions from third-party kits like TPMS or valve controllers, resorting to splicing their OE loom, and will be unable to repair the issue because they can't identify that it's an MCON1.2 not an MQS termination on the canbus pins in the loom sockets.

If I did this the easy way, I wouldn't know.

 

[wuta3]

Yup, fully aware of what the canbus wires are like and why they are twisted as opposed to 'just run side by side'

I'm not knocking you at all, it's good that you care enough to learn about something.

All i was saying is i spliced the can H/L wires into the passenger footwell connector block and never had any issues with any systems on the car.

In fact the only error i would constantly get was related to the Ghost Immo in the cluster, did it bother me ? no because once i knew why it occurred i was comfortable with it.

Also don't forget if you are indeed doing this as per a factory install, then the Module is mounted outside the car at the rear just forward of the bumper on the drivers side, I didn't go this route, as i think a module outside the car underneath exposed to the uk elements isn't the best idea, so i mounted mine in the rear behind the 12v socket panel in the boot, it was out of sight and more importantly safe from the uk weather.

Thank you for this. Yes my mounting is inside the boot housing behind the tail light. The earth terminal there is convenient too. I did however buy the OE bracket and modified it to attach to the plastics behind that boot panel so if the module dies, i've not glued it to something hah

 

[wuta3]

And some more bedtime reading for you.

Stecker und Reparaturkabel

Danke!

Weirdly the repair wire for MCON1.2 sockets isn't listed there, but the repair wire part numbers are useful.

The issue is that repair wires for this termination (000979034E) are pre-terminated which isn't very useful if you bust your OE loom pins because third-parties are using MQS in place of MCON contacts out of either supply issues or confusion, and trying to buy the 000979034E-compatible contacts (MCON) results in having bags of MQS contacts!

It's insanity! When I have completed the table mapping everything out, nobody else should have to pay £6.99 for 10 MQS connectors masquerading as MCON rather than £0.80 for 10 because you can search for MCON1.2 rather than an Audi part number.

 

[wuta3]

@wuta3 you might find this link interesting, possibly more interesting if you read it sooner! It’s in German but it’s invaluable pin and connector information.

A4-Freunde.COMmunity - Dein Forum zum Thema Audi A4

Deine Community fuer und ueber den Audi A4. Besuche unsere Seite unter http://www.a4-freunde.com

www.a4-freunde.com

OH MY THANK YOU!

So I found a JPEG of the table in the link, but in Russian, and translated it by hand to English for much of the information and started to fill in the blanks. Translation from German would've been easier. I thought the table was originating in Russia, but to have the source link is REALLY helpful.

Also, there's a footnote on that page explaining the problem I am seeing in aftermarket looms and connectors which causes damage except people are also using MQS too (or perhaps I will re-visit my findings and work out the incorrect contacts were MCP?)

• The MCON contact family is sometimes mistakenly called MCP 1.2 on the net. In addition, there are 2 different versions of the contacts, Locking Lance (LL) and Clean Body (CB). The part numbers here and the picture refer to the LL variant. A picture comparing the two variants, see below.
  
  
• (Footnote on the male part) The contact is not part of TE Connectivity's MCON contact family, but is part of Kostal's MLK1.2 (Mini Lamellar Contact) contact family. This contact family is almost identical to MCON and the contacts accordingly also fit into the housings of TE Conntectivity, which are intended for MCON. Below is a picture for comparison.

 

[JohnS3]

Glad to be of some help.

 

[8YARWY]

To be clear, I wasn't offended. I was just noting that everyone has their own way of doing things.


My response was mainly to @8YARWY whose comment that I was "overthinking it" seemed slightly mocking but also misunderstood the fact that as a weirdo, I quite enjoy the small challenges that setting additional constraints on a project throws up. I want to do this without modification of any OE loom wires. I ran into an issue with termination identification so I looked into solving that challenge.

no mocking here, simply saying splicing causes no issues, have done it loads over the years, and personally never felt the need to reinvent the wheel when doing it.

If splicing into looms was a major issue no one would have any immobiliser / alarm fitted ever again.

 

[wuta3]

If splicing into looms was a major issue no one would have any immobiliser / alarm fitted ever again.

I'm sure it is fine, not doubting that. The loom I purchased however was terminated, had a nice socket based tap and whatnot.
It should be an easy job re-terminating when the supplied loom was terminated incorrectly. I chose to spend time sourcing the right termination for the third-party loom. It's a valid choice, and not really re-inventing the wheel.

If it were, I wouldn't have been supplied a loom that can be added and removed by simply swapping some terminations in the socket.