Wheel alignment - Camber angle out ?

[John417]

Hi guys , after few months without my TQS ( out of country due to work) I have came back and wanted to get couple of things done to refresh the condition of the car. One of those was a wheel alignment but instead of getting that i got 2 bad news. 1 - the camber angle is out and they do not know how to adjust that , having read a thread about it it doesnt really make me and wiser cause it seems too complicated but basically what i want to know is how do i correct this ? And second problem was that when they wanted to do the front wheel alignment the tie rod end is propably faulty causee its spinning around ? But thats not such a huge deal i can replace that and get the alignment done but the camber angle is annoying me cause i want everything there to be as it should be and right now i do feel the wheels are completely unstable the car feels like a 200k miles passat with a tired suspension ( cornering ) So i wanted to ask someone who knows the most about these cars how do i get the camber angle corrected? Cheers.

 

[aragorn]

What are the actual figures and what end was the camber wrong? Without the figures its impossible to tell wether its an issue.

If the cars lowered you'll probably have a bit more camber than the computer expects. Setting the computer to "RS4" might help. But really so long as its even then its fine.

On the front, the camber really cant be adjusted. But if one side is say -1, and the other side is -0.5, you can adjust the subframe to get both sides to even out at -0.75. However its a tricky job and most garages wont touch it.

 

[aragorn]

Oh and if the track rods are spinning it probably means the rubber has delaminated. The TQS shouldnt have rubber TRE's fitted at all, it should have solid ones. So replace those with the right part!

 

[John417]

Thanks Kev , i cant remember the figures exactly but i do know it was just slightly off cause it showed on the graph as just a few mm out of the green space not sure now if they were both the same will get the track rod end done tmw and take it back there to get the alignment done and at the same time check the figures. With the TRA which one would you recommend ? Im looking at eurocarparts now and all of these have rubber fitted even Lemforder which is the one i wanted to go for.

 

[John417]

Also with the camber and lowering the car how badly does lowering the car affect the camber angle? Its still stock now but i was gonna get AP coilovers or eibach lowering springs next week to lower it by approx. 30mm would that mess up the camber by much? Or which suspension should i go for if i want to lower the car a bit but i dont really want to mess with the car cause my plans have changed recently i decided to just bring the TQS back to a perfect condition instead of going big turbo etc. I do however want to get a custom catback exhaust done and a chip , better intercooler , diverter valve check hoses etc just to get the car running nice and smooth but thats it no huge upgrades cause i figured its better just to get an s4 for this purposes as it does come with 265bhp already so a simple remap and im at 300-310bhp where as with the TQS a lot of things would have to be done to get there. Do you know if the S4 is simplier to tune ? Or are there any specific models again that have the flashable ecu ? Cheers

 

[aragorn]

B5 platform doesn't camber up a huge amount with sensible lowering. If you only want 30mm then you can't go wrong with eibach pro kit or bilstein b12.

Try looking for tre for an S4, they are the same as what the TQS has. I will look up a part number tomorrow for you.

S4 is much easier to tune, they all have flashable ECUs.

 

[John417]

Ok so ill go for the eibach pro kit as i heard of these being great, as with the TRE i found a solid one but its Starline i never heard of that make so if you could send me the part number that'd be great. BTW im kinda confused with the ECU units for our cars i read somewhere that a drive by cable is easier to tune and mine is AJL drive by cable so does that mean it is flashable or not?

 

[aragorn]

The AJL ecu is not flashable. A3 ECU's from cable-throttle cars are flashable and do swap over with minimal effort.

 

[aragorn]

TRE you need is 4F0498811A. Buy Lemforder or TRW if you want it to last. You can look up either companies catalog for a cross reference to their own part number and then search for that number on amazon or ebay etc.

Be careful when ordering Eibach Pro-Kit, they do two kits, one listed as "with aircon" and one listed as "without aircon". You MUST buy the without aircon kit, despite what your car has fitted, or it will sit far too high at the front. The part number you need for a saloon is E1534-140

 

[John417]

Thanks a lot mate , good thing i didnt order it yet as i wanted to order the solid one on eurocarparts but its starline so i waited for the part number and in the mean time had to deal with a puncture so i got both front tires replaced the other day used Avon ZV7 as they have a good rating and Avon should be a good tire both fitted for £160 not too bad , can already feel better handling but now i need the TRE and the alignment done and propably will have the eibach fitted at the same time. Hoping to get it all done by friday and in a few weeks time replace the rear tires too , really wanted Falken Ziex cause i had a set of them few years ago on this car and they were great the car would grip on rain as if it wasnt even raining so maybe ill go for the Falkens on the rear. By the way im going to have the clutch replaced hopefully in few weeks time but instead of going for the Sachs or LUK i was wondering if there's any alternative that would help bring the biting point down a bit? Cause even tho im used to it since im driving the car for 5 years i would prefer it to bite lower and if it is possible and doesnt cost a fortune id just go for it , i heard southbend clutch kit is for tuned cars so im thinking that could have a lower biting point? Any recommendations ? Cheers again for the part numbers mate, really value your help.

 

[aragorn]

should be able to get Eagle F1's for that money. Depends on size ofcourse, but they're around that price in 17 and 18" and are amongst the best you can buy.

A new clutch will bite lower anyway, they just go high when they get old.

 

[John417]

You're right about the tires i just checked blackcircles and the Avon's are £62 each mailed, i can get tyres fitted and balanced for £5 so it would cost me £134 but it was a puncture on sunday and only place opened was kwik fit and their prices are silly so £160 didnt seem that bad but i checked those Eagle F1 (3) and for £164 a pair (225/40/18) so £174 with balance etc and the info and reviews seem really great im surprised i never heard about these but will get a pair of them and put these on the front and the avon's on the rear cause the Goodyear's should be better. By the way i wanted to order the Eibach springs now but im thinking ill propably want to change the shocks too to make the handling better as the old one's are starting to be tired so im thinking 4 shocks will cost me around £300 if i go for Sachs so with the springs that'll be nearly £500 would it be a good idea to go for coilovers instead? I found AP on ebay for £500 and i heard good things about AP so do you think that would be a better choice ? I see some FK coilovers for like £230 that seems to be too cheap to be a good quality product or am i wrong ?

 

[aragorn]

Personally i'd spend the £500 on Bilsteins and Eibach Springs (B12 Pro kit) rather than cheap nasty coilovers.

 

[John417]

Alright so i finally replaced the track rod ends, went to kwik fit for a wheel alignment and now my steering wheel has to be slightly to the left for the car to go straight im not sure whether that has to do with the camber being out but i have a print out of the figures so can you explain to me why is it only one side that the camber is totally off and is this why the steering wheel isnt straight ? Is there really not anything that i can do to correct the camber i mean maybe different arms or bushes or idk.

 

[John417]

Printout

 

[aragorn]

hmm.

front and rear camber on the left side arent right. waay too positive.
Right front is fine despite being red.

Front isnt adjustable, but i've never seen it that low before.
Rear is adjustable, so why have they left it so close to zero?

 

[John417]

I will be going back there tmw after work and ask them to adjust the rear left camber am i right thinking it should be around -0.55 same as the rear right ? But the front right one is annoying me like im not an expert in this sort of stuff but i've had 3 wheel alignments done to this car during my ownership and eachtime the camber was perfect and now its all over the place, could it be because the car was stood for couple of months without moving at all? So the steering wheel not being straight is caused by the front camber is it?

 

[aragorn]

The steering wheel being squint is simply the result of them not doing the alignment properly.

If i were to guess given the limited info, i would say the cars had a knock on the left side and something is bent. Otherwise, all you can do to fix it is slacken the subframe and move it over slightly.

You will typically see 1 to 1.5 degrees negative on the rear, and a bit less on the front. Bear in mind the chart isnt showing -0.55 its showing -0 degrees 55minutes, which is almost -1 degree.

 

[S4_dan]

To be honest, I've never rated Kwik Fit in any of their work quality. Had so many issues with them, I only use reputable independent garages now. Of all the garages in the area where I live, there are only 2 I trust with our vehicles.

Try taking the car elsewhere for an alignment.

The steering wheel 'should' have been locked central prior to any alignment work being done, hence why it's off centre now.

 

[aragorn]

my local kwikfit has Hunter alignment kit which is pretty good, and sure, monkey operating it can **** it up, but there generally good, and are open at useful times, unlike the smaller garages. ITs the only thing i use kwikfit for, and thus far have no real complaints. On the odd occasion i've had to go back for a tweak, but they do that with no issue at all.

 

[S4_dan]

I must be lucky as the guy in my local garage is there 7 days a week. Lol. 8am til 8pm almost every day.

Not sure what system he uses, but it does 4 wheel alignment with all the fancy lasers and computer.

 

[John417]

I took it back the next day and they did the alignment again now its all good but the rear camber they didnt adjust as it would mess up the toe they said but to be honest i dont normally use kwik fit either it was because they were the only place open at the time and i live like 1 minute away from them but i found ATS to be good at alignments always used them and never ever had an issue and they'r cheaper too £63 for 4 wheel alignments where as kwik fit charged £75 which is the highest i ever heard of there is 1 guy who has a small garage and is supposed to be a specialist at alignments and only charges £20 to do all 4 wheels but i went to him once years ago and he all he did was unplug my brake pad sensor and mess up the toe even more then it was But still £63 for a simple alignments which takes them like 20 minutes seems way too much.

 

[aragorn]

the rear camber will affect the toe, but your supposed to set the camber first, then set the toe.

Kwikfit charge £45ish for front toe, then usually add around 20quid extra per additional adjustment. So front toe, rear toe and rear camber would usually be around £90.

Theres no way you can do a proper 4 wheel alignment on a car with multiple adjustments like the B5, for £20.

 

[John417]

If i remember correctly they said the front is £49.99 and rear £24.99 and i know £20 seems a bit too cheap but i think £50 for a proper 4 wheel alignment would be a fair price , £75 seems way too much. Btw i got some question's about the b12 kit but ill just start a new thread cause it'll be general questions for a project to restore the TQS.

 

[aragorn]

Its just one of time. The 49.99 covers getting it up on the ramps and getting the kit setup, and adjusting the front toe. Thats all thats adjustable on most cars. I guess some cars will be easy and that price is a bit high, but other cars everything will be siezed solid and they'll be there 20mins just trying to get the rod ends freed off.

Additional adjustments they obviously then charge extra for, again takes time and things are often siezed and require messing around to get the adjustments actually made.

I've had alignments done at a few different places in different areas of the UK over my B5 ownership, and its always cost around 90quid for the B5 Quattro.

 

[John417]

UPDATE : Alright guys so for the past month i've been trying to figure out whats wrong with the suspension on my car cause as i mentioned on my other threads the car feels loose and especially when taking a RH turn few days ago i replaced the sticky NSR caliper i also fitted brand new discs and pads on the rear and this made a little difference but still the car doesnt feel as it did at its best. And the more i read about suspension , handling etc im more convinced that the camber is at fault here cause as mentioned above the left side camber is too positive this would explain why it is worse on a RH corner then on a LH corner. Im not really that much educated when it comes to camber but based on Kevin's input im trying to figure out what could be bent or damaged on the suspension on left side but i cant really work it out cause i changed the front upper control arms less then 5k miles ago, track rod ends less then 1500 miles and i know for sure the car didnt hit anything i mean im the only one driving it and i didnt even hit a kurb while parking or anything so not sure what would be the cause of this and im really annoyed at this cause the grip is the number 1 thing i loved on this car so i really want to solve this problem but not sure where i should start ? I know the shocks and springs are weak now thats for sure but could that cause the positive camber ?

 

[aragorn]

lowering the car will increase the camber slightly but not a lot.

For the front end, i would slacken the subframe bolts and try to shimmy the frame over to the left. That will increase the camber on the left and reduce it on the right. Theres alignment pins that should be used, factory wheel brace works but you need two. But it might need moved over a bit further than the alignment pin allows. I would try and see if the alignment pin fits before you slacken it off.If it does, then ignore the pin and just move the frame over a bit.

For the rear, a decent alignment shop should easily be able to set -1 degree on both sides and set the toe appropriately. Its all adjustable. Worst case the bolts sieze in the adjusters, and if thats the case it needs fixed.

 

[John417]

How would the subframe be moved over i mean how do i know by howmuch i should move it , it would propably be best to let a garage do it so they can check the camber and adjust it based on that but i will definetely be getting a new shock/spring set up and lower the car by approx 30mm so might be better off to get it done after i do the suspension but you know what i find interesting is that i suddenly get a lot of torque steer which is really weird cause that never happend since it is quattro and i didnt get it chiped or anything so the power is still the same and tyres are new it all seems really strange like i can usually tell the problem by its symptoms but this is somany things i even thought it could be transmission related would that be possible ? The reason for that is that i felt this hesitation when driving like something was draggin me back it wasnt the wind thats for sure it only happend twice and other then sometimes having trouble to put the car in first gear ( all it takes is release and press the clutch again and its fine ) theres nothing wrong clutch isnt slipping or anything.

 

[aragorn]

yeh defo get the suspension on first.

Finding a garage thats competent enough to slacken and adjust the subframe will be difficult, most dont want the hassle. Like i say, first step, see if the alignment pin will go in!

Torque steer could be a bad bush or balljoint or something allowing the toe to change. Its an old car, every single bush and balljoint will be worn out by now. If you've replaced any parts and used cheapey bits, some of those also have a very short lifespan and could have failed already.

 

[John417]

I got another theory in mind as i keep thinking about it this evening and i think i might be on to something, when i got the alignment done the NSR wheel had a positive camber , at that time i had a bent brake disc so that might cause the camber to be messed up , i was getting this weird feeling as if a wheel was bent when coming to a stop as if the road was uneven even tho it wasnt but i already replaced the disc and i still get this feeling so im thinking i might have a bent wheel at the front or something with the rotors again cause im trying to figure out what happend during the last 2 years that would screw up the camber cause as i said already i've had few alignments done and the camber was never an issue and in the last year or so the car hasnt been driven much i actually started to use it as my daily again only few weeks before the alignment was done and the only thing that was done to the suspension between the alignments was the upper control arms so maybe they are the reason for the camber in front being out. My old man's got a b7 a4 with R17 wheels so will try to fit those to my audi tomorrow and drive it to eliminate the bent wheel , ill check the rotors aswell and if there's any way to check the control arms even tho i dont know what could be wrong with them i mean they cant be too short or anything like that can they? Wouldnt really be possible to fit the bolts in then surely. But ill try to fit the other wheels and see if that makes any difference at all cause these replica wheels that i have on now are weak i already had one welded due to being bent so it wouldnt surprise me if it was the wheels being bent. Will update tomorrow, thanks for your help Kev really appreciate it.

 

[John417]

So i couldnt actually swap the wheels today cause the weather was really crappy but i did check the rotors well what i did was lifted the front axle and tried to spin the front wheels and they both spin without any hesitation so i think the discs are straight but its funny i drove the car in the afternoon and it didnt feel that bad then i drove it in the evening and it felt loose again i would normally think that it may be the tires then cause even tho they are new these avons arent really that good i had falkens few years back and they felt somuch better the grip was great these avons dont really perform good on wet roads and even on dry road i think they might be making the steering feel loose alittle bit more then it would with better tires the r17 wheels have brand new eagle f1 3 tires so they should be good hopefully ill be able to fit those tomorrow but i was busy with my brothers leon cupra mk1 today he drove over a speed bump and something was on it probaly didnt really notice cause it was dark already but he broke his oil sump , i thought the subframe is in the way of the sump and would have to be moved to be able to remove the sump but it looks like its not all it takes is remove the bolts and replace the sump ? These engines dont even have oil sump gaskets i found out today seems way too easier then on my previous 325i the entire subframe had to be moved to get the sump off. We'll have a crack at it tomorrow if we can find a good condition sump but i wanted to ask you Kev what would be the best sealent to use cause i always thought theres an actual gasket?

 

[Andy avant b5]

Very different in a a4 b5 cracked my sump 6 months ago 3 hours just to take the sump off

 

[John417]

Thats what i thought too cause i've done mine in the 325i i had and it was a nightmare obviously thats a 6 cylinder engine but still i didnt expect the sump to be so easy to replace on the leon , did you have to move the subframe on the b5 when u did your Andy?

 

[Andy avant b5]

Yes also theres a bolt that's impossible to get too a real nightmare

 

[Andy avant b5]

I assume your brothers very much if it ain't scrubbing it ain't dubbing he likes his car dumped

 

[John417]

Its actually not that low it is a lot lower then my audi but there is still a gap between the wheels and arches i think there was something i dont know maybe a stone or something on the bump cause he drives thru that road many times and nothing happend. We'll see tomorrow how big of a damage it is but it must be pretty big cause the oil was gone really quickly.

 

[Andy avant b5]

Is it a diesel because the diesel sump sits a lot lower

 

[John417]

No its the same engine as we have 1.8T , made me wonder if 30mm lowering would be ideal maybe i should only go about 15-20mm but then again i've got 18 inch wheels and i think the cupra is already lower even stock then a stock b5 and it does have lowering springs so it is on the edge i think.

 

[aragorn]

the sump does seem quite vulnerable on the transverse cars. The A4 one is pretty well protected by the subframe.

 

[Andy avant b5]

Yes the cupra only has 17 inch once I got my coilovers on I want to lower it a bit more want a bit of rake at the front but am rolling my arches