TUNING - Celtic, APR,Revo etc

andyay123

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So it would seem that quite a few people seem to have the opinion that Revo and APR are the market leaders.
Revo comes in at £840 inclusive vat which is 100% more than a Celtic tune.
Celtic claim on their website that they "are specialists in the development of engine management software where we have a specialist team of graduate level software developers. All of our software development is carried out in house using our state of the art facilities which very few companies can rival, even internationally"

If this is correct then how come Revo are so much more expensive for what seems, on the surface, a like for like product.
I have had couple of Celtic remaps without any issues - Porsche Cayenne & Range Rover Sport.

Andy
 
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Overheads, marketing and profit margins. I'd expect the Revo/APR guys invest a reasonable amount more in R&D than Celtic. Not saying Celtic are any way inferior, but I'd expect APR and Revo to have way more data on a wider range of cars they've tuned to see what the issues may be (I'm APR tuned and was the UK CREC test car and had my supercharger clutch go a couple of times whilst the tune was being developed for example)
 
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Precisely put by @arad85. There is a reason why the likes of APR, Revo and MRC are renowned and seen as market leaders (I had to mention MRC for obvious reasons ). I am not against graduates developing the tunes etc but then don't expect it to be 'perfect'! Also, it's not just the state of the art facilities that matter but the R&D.


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Just to say I'm a graduate software engineer (some 30+ years ago now but still program daily) and I wouldn't let myself loose on my car's engine...
 
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Just to say I'm a graduate software engineer (some 30+ years ago now but still program daily) and I wouldn't let myself loose on my car's engine...

Same here @arad85 but somehow ended up in IT Portfolio Management. I do program every now and then but 'exploring' my ECU is a different ball game.


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I’ve been to Celtic Tuning a few times, seen their work and results and although they don’t always get the highest figures their maps are very good and I’ve not heard of anyone being unhappy with them.
I think part of the question to narrow it down is is where are you located, how far are you prepared to travel for tuning and what tuners are available to you within that radius?
 
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APR & REVO are international dealers as well, they are going to have a whole lot more data than what Celtic have available to them.
Pretty sure both take part in racing series' as well (in fact APR stands for Audi Performance and Racing).
MRC would still be my pick of the bunch, mostly down to their experience in working with Audi S & RS cars
 
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If its for a pre-CREC engine then I believe that REVO price includes SPS doesn't it? If that appeals then its a worthwhile extra over Celtic. Also based on what I have seen, a REVO remap will have greater gains than Celtic.

Whether or not it affects your opinion, it is clear that Celtic is a generalist tuner, covering many different marques. Revo is somewhat more specialist, covering VAG and Ford. APR is an Audi specialist (but I think they do other VAG too).
 
I’ve been to Celtic Tuning a few times, seen their work and results and although they don’t always get the highest figures their maps are very good and I’ve not heard of anyone being unhappy with them.
I think part of the question to narrow it down is is where are you located, how far are you prepared to travel for tuning and what tuners are available to you within that radius?

Stage 1
Celtic Claim 390bhp (£400)
ARP are at 433-465bhp which is a lot more power! (£1150)
 
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What TF is IT Portfolio Management?

. I setup and manage the portfolio/programme/project management offices. Includes developing programme/project management methodologies including SW life cycles, testing, service management, pipeline/demand management and resource management. Also includes defining governance frameworks for approvals / rejection of new ideas and in-flight initiatives etc. In simple terms; I am the PMO, which I am sure you must've heard of


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Where did you get those APR figures from? They include changing the SC pulley?

I was about to ask the same question as 465 seems a bit too high for Stage 1.


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Stage 1
Celtic Claim 390bhp (£400)
ARP are at 433-465bhp which is a lot more power! (£1150)

I would check the figure again more closely you will see that all APR's peak figures are recorded with the rev limit at 7200rpm clearly meaning a TCU remap is needed to spin the charger faster.
If you look at Celtic Tunings dyno graph you will see power drops off just over 6000 rpm indicating that there is no TCU remap just engine remap.
 
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. I setup and manage the portfolio/programme/project management offices. Includes developing programme/project management methodologies including SW life cycles, testing, service management, pipeline/demand management and resource management. Also includes defining governance frameworks for approvals / rejection of new ideas and in-flight initiatives etc. In simple terms; I am the PMO, which I am sure you must've heard of
Ahh... You're the person who goes to all the meetings ;) :p
 
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According to the APR website. that's using 108RON fuel.

Ah, that explains why. I should've checked their website first before posting here - cheers @jdp1962


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I can't remember the exact figure but I don't think the B8 rev'd to 7200. Yes it was higher than the B8.5, but I'm sure that there were TCU remaps for the B8 that increased the redline.
 
Sorry, yes manual B8’s Rev to 7200rpm, DSG B8’s shift at 7000rpm but still the TCU remap isn’t as worth while.

The main change to the B8 was to remove the 1st gear short shift that some cars suffered from, which effectively gave a dramatically reduced rev limit in 1st.
 
Im being quoted £1120 for stage 1 APR?!? Anyone have any experience on costs
 
APR & REVO are international dealers as well, they are going to have a whole lot more data than what Celtic have available to them.
Pretty sure both take part in racing series' as well (in fact APR stands for Audi Performance and Racing).
MRC would still be my pick of the bunch, mostly down to their experience in working with Audi S & RS cars
Spoke to MRC who know their stuff. They've been the only garage who said they will specifically map the car for me. They also advised that the gear box would need to be mapped to handle the difference in torque. APR told me that the gear box didn't need to be mapped!! Its so ****** confusing as I assumed APR were in bed with Audi so know what they are talking about. Then MRC just turned that on its head
 
Look at the Go APR uk website that should be the price you pay from an authorised dealer as far as I know.

You’ll find plenty of people on Audizine with stage 1 & 2 cars that haven’t done the gearbox map. If you’ve a B8.5 you’ll need it to make the most of your engine map.
 
Look at the Go APR uk website that should be the price you pay from an authorised dealer as far as I know.

You’ll find plenty of people on Audizine with stage 1 & 2 cars that haven’t done the gearbox map. If you’ve a B8.5 you’ll need it to make the most of your engine map.
MRC will map it AND gearbox map for less than APR.
 
Stage 1 doesn't require TCU tune but it can be done alongside to get the most out of the tune. If you are up North call Awesome GTI in Manchester. @arad85 had his S4 tuned by them as his' was APR's test car for Ultra Charger tune as well.

If you are down south, don't bother with anyone else, book in the car with MRC and you won't regret the decision.

Having said that, Torque is addictive and once you go Stage 1 you'll soon start thinking about stage 2! And therefore, cut down your missus' pocket money and shopping allowance for next couple of months and go straight Stage 2 . And simply 'launch' the car every time she moans about her pocket money


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Distance is my only issue with going MRC, I’ve APR and Revo within 10 min drive or MRC is 5hrs
 
Distance is my only issue with going MRC, I’ve APR and Revo within 10 min drive or MRC is 5hrs
Same
MRC is 2 hours but have APR and REVO on my doorstep. Saying that MRC can do stage 1 map and dsg map for price of APR stage 1 so makes sense to spend 2 hours in car
 
. I setup and manage the portfolio/programme/project management offices. Includes developing programme/project management methodologies including SW life cycles, testing, service management, pipeline/demand management and resource management. Also includes defining governance frameworks for approvals / rejection of new ideas and in-flight initiatives etc. In simple terms; I am the PMO, which I am sure you must've heard of


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That has explained it really well @Tashfeen will be even more confused lol


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I drove 2.5hrs to MRC and went straight to stage 2 with DSG map, well worth the money and totally transformed the car, even though Revo and APR dealers were much cheaper.
DSG tune speeds up the shift, clutches clamp harder and unlocks launch control amongst other benefits so def worth having regardless of which stage tune you go for.
One thing to consider is how far your thinking of tuning the car in the future as Revo Stage 1+ is SC pulley and map only, MRC stage2 take things further with Crank pulley and map but APR offer single and dual pulley maps plus the option to add the Ultra charger.
Anything more than a remap regardless of tuner is going to require cooling mods to reap the full benefits.
 
I drove 2.5hrs to MRC and went straight to stage 2 with DSG map, well worth the money and totally transformed the car, even though Revo and APR dealers were much cheaper.
DSG tune speeds up the shift, clutches clamp harder and unlocks launch control amongst other benefits so def worth having regardless of which stage tune you go for.
One thing to consider is how far your thinking of tuning the car in the future as Revo Stage 1+ is SC pulley and map only, MRC stage2 take things further with Crank pulley and map but APR offer single and dual pulley maps plus the option to add the Ultra charger.
Anything more than a remap regardless of tuner is going to require cooling mods to reap the full benefits.
I won't be doing any track days so a stage 1 is sufficient
 
Looked over few air intake kits .. but struggling to find a uk supplier of injen or revo who can deliver in next few days .. anyone know a good dealer who may be able supply?? Any help appreciated
 
If your anywhere near Leeds you can have an MRC remap done by Chris at CM tuning. He doesn’t have a rolling road and it isn’t a custom map but the guy really knows his stuff, worked for MRC for 10yrs or so, does some of the best welding I’ve ever seen and will do just about anything including porting your supercharger if you want to take things that far.
 
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Sorry guys posted in wrong thread.. didnt mean hijack this one .. apologies please ignore
Looked over few air intake kits .. but struggling to find a uk supplier of injen or revo who can deliver in next few days .. anyone know a good dealer who may be able supply?? Any help appreciated

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Spoke to MRC who know their stuff. They've been the only garage who said they will specifically map the car for me. They also advised that the gear box would need to be mapped to handle the difference in torque. APR told me that the gear box didn't need to be mapped!! Its so ****** confusing as I assumed APR were in bed with Audi so know what they are talking about. Then MRC just turned that on its head
@andyay123 - I apologise if I'm about to insult your intelligence...

Before you tune, be aware of the consequences
Increasing power and torque will increase stress on the engine and other components. As such the consumables of both may "wear" more quickly. This means that it is wise to service a tuned car more frequently, but also to change certain "lifetime" components and consumable to service items. So for example gearbox ATF oil & filter ought to be changed at less than 38K intevals and it would be wise to have then hypoid oil changed at some point. It is also sensible to be aware of the weak points in the car because tuning might make them fail more quickly. On the B8 the DL501 gearbox is top of this list (the 3rd version fitted from 2103-ish is hopefully OK, but ones before that are at risk). Next is the crank pulley which is likely to fail at some point. On early engines the water pump wears out. On the newer engines (mid-2014 onwards) the supercharger clutch is a risk item. Ideally these risks should be mitigated (where possible) at the time of tuning, but if that's not done owners should be aware that tuning might accelerate failure.

Stage 1 vs stage 2
The OE ECU map restricts peak torque and power by opening a bypass valve in the supercharger to recycle the air and limit manifold pressure. In simple terms stage 1 raises the threshold of when this is opened. More air needs more fuel so the fuel map has to be changed. However depending on the tuner, other maps such as the spark timing can be tweaked. To increase torque and power beyond this, even more airflow is needed to increase manifold pressure. This is done by increasing the revs of the supercharger in relation to the engine revs. The OE pulley ratio is 2.56 so when the engine is at 7,200 rpm the supercharger is at just over 18,400 rpm. One way to change the ratio is to use a smaller supercharger pulley. It has been found that the smallest without risking belt slip is about 57 mm and this increases the ratio to 2.84 and the supercharger revs to just over 20,400 rpm. However the Eaton supercharger is spec'd to 24,000 rpm, so the ratio can be increased to 3.33 (for a 7.200 rpm redline). This can be achieved by increasing the size of the crank pulley, either on its own, or in conjunction with a smaller supercharger drive pulley (which is known as DP - dual pulley).

Stage 3
For completeness it should be mentioned that further gains are possible. An attempt was made at a supercharger upgrade but its benefits were never realised, especially given the price. The other solution is to increase maximum airflow further by removing the restriction at the throttle by increasing its size. I think the only commercial TB upgrade is from APR with their "Ultracharger" brand.

Tuning requirements
I think one of the biggest areas of confusion are about what else needs to be done as part of the tuning. I mentioned components at risk of failure above, and I'm going to ignore subjects like braking and suspension, and focus on things directly related to performance.
FUEL: In basic terms the octane refers to how "smoothly" the fuel burns. An engine which is tuned to do so can extract more energy from a higher octane fuel and this gives better torque. Most tuners program the ECU to do this, and so a tuned engine will have higher torque and power with higher octane fuel. However the engine should still cope with lower octane, it will "******" and run at lower power.
AIR: Increasing the manifold pressure in stage 1 and 2 is only possible if there is sufficient airflow to allow it. I have not seen any evidence, but it would appear that a stage 1 tune is not restricted by the OE intake, and certainly not at the OE redline. However I have seen evidence that stage 2 will be restricted at the top end and that's why intake uprating is always recommended for stage 2 (and a stage 3 larger TB is simply an extension of this uprating).
TRANSMISSION: Increasing the torque from the engine is only of benefit if it can be transmitted to the wheels. By definition the point in the transmission where loss of torque will be highest is at the clutches. The clamping pressure of the clutch packs is set by the TCU. There are many cases where tuning easily exceeds this OE pressure and there is slip (I believe the S3 is such a case). I believe that MRC has also seen it on the S4/5 which is why they recommend the TCU remap which increases the pressure. The other limit in the TCU is the redline. The B8 had this at about 6,800 rpm (I think) whereas the B8.5 was reduced to about 6,250 rpm. It is accepted that this platform can cope with around 7,200 rpm so most TCU remaps will increase the redline to this, releasing a bit more power.
EXHAUST: Unlike many platforms, it seems that the exhaust system on the B8 is not restrictive even at stage 2. However the cats are vulnerable to heat and may be restrictive at stage 3 so ought to be uprated or moved.
HEAT: Since hot air expands heat is an enemy of tuning (particularly forced induction). The heat exchanger system varies between the B8 and B8.5, and again for the CREC engine, so the situation regarding what uprating is needed is unclear. Of course actual running heat relates to how the car is driven. Uprating is recommended in stage 2 for hard driving and hot environments, and seems to be a requirement for stage 3.

Custom tuning
As I noted, any stage needs ECU reprogramming to change the engine maps. Without doubt there is skill to this and some tuners can optimise maps better than others. This has more impact the higher the gains. However also no two cars are absolutely identical, and a skilled tuner can optimise a map for a specific car. Most tuners use generic maps which were created on a development car. Other tuners (MRC being the prime example) will start with their generic maps but then tweak them for each car to create a custom tune which (in most cases) results in slightly higher performance.
 
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Holly! And who else can explain it better than @Dippy. Hats off mate


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