Induction Kits

[james0808]

Just out of curiosity what power will flow through the airbox,standard or modified?

 

[1animal1]

james im not getting into this argument with you fella, we've completely ditracted from the point and you have taken a tiny piece of info from my last post to use against me - which was a reply to your subtle insult against my car

not really that bothered to be fair, i know which one id rather have, you've always sounded bitter against S3 owners whilst ive known you on here, im sure if you fill that piggy bank, and then one day....

 

[james0808]

If i wanted an S3 i could buy one tomorrow,but i dont so i wont.I was actually going to buy an S3 when i sold my A4,but couldnt find a nice one and then when i did find a nice one i went to look at it in my mates 330ci which totally blew the S3 into the weeds,so i brought the 330ci instead and was so glad i did.
It amazes me why people think others cant afford an S3 just because they dont want to own one.


And incase you missed it the original poster was only after noise,which you will get more of with a cone and only loose power if it is a crap design.

Purely after noise, but hopefully no loss of performance. (chipped)

 

[1animal1]

well you do sound bitter in a few of your posts James, what else was i supposed to think? they arent that expensive now regardless - just trying to get a rise kidda

my replies werent in regard to the original post

 

[james0808]

Im not bitter at all towards S3's.I do still like them (only the 8l) just wouldnt own one,well maybe i would,a well sorted BT with around 400bhp would be nice.I think i had too high hopes for one when i sold my A4 and was left dissapointed with all my test drives,was better than the A4 though.

 

[Ess_Three]

Better judgement doesnt change the facts.If you make a less restrictive path for the air to flow through it is better for your turbo.

True.
But if you get no gains dynoing with no filter and a ****** big fan blowing cold air into the MAF, you aren't going to get a gain by fitting a cone filter instead.

If the air is colder you will make more power,albeit only a tiny amount with an air filter change.

This is true...
And the only way I've ever found to keep the cold air as cold as when it enters, is to make sure all of the inlet tract is insulating the cold air from head as it passes through the engine bay - insulating from conducted heat from the engine bay to the inlet pipe to the incoming air.

This only truly occurs with a sealed (properly sealed) and insulating inlet tract.

A big polished alloy pipe for example, as used in many CAI kits, is not an insulator.
Nor is a big cone filter with a alloy back plate (come heatsink)
...and with an engine bay often reaching 60-80 degrees C, fitting an alloy heat shield does not work as well as a insulating inlet tract.

You can do the measurements yourself with an RTD element on a fluke...it's not hard. But the results are eye-opening.

You also get a filter that does not need changing and doesnt clog up as quickly as a paper one therefore loosing power,the gains are not just bhp/torque.

But at £100+ vs a new VAG filter every 6 months...is is better?
Not in my book it's not.

Everytime I've run a foam/SS/oiled cotton filter I've had debris in the inlet tract that you just don't get with a paper filter.
I used to use a K&N as I had one sitting about...but if I am honest, it didn't add anything but a bit of noise, and it didn't filter as well as a paper filter.

An engine is an engine and they need cold air for better combustion,or is the S3 engine special?

Special in that it heatsoaks like no other engine i've ever played with...yes.
It seems to be affected by heat much more than any other engine I've messed with...so in the S3s case...yes, it really does need cold air...or you are heatsoaking power away anything after the first flat out run.

Wasnt Glens a smoothed/modified airbox with a big cold airfeed?

It was...it was a standard airbox, smoothed and a 4" duct fitted to the front bumper where the pressure was greatest (yes, I'm sad enough to measure it with a manometer)...and if the airbox isn't restrictive, and you don't get any gains from fitting anything aftermarket, then I'd be as well using natures charge air to my advantage - a few inches water gauge is worth more than a big shiny cone filter with any form of heatshield you care to fit, actually out on the road, in the airflow, where it counts.

 

[Ess_Three]

Purely on performance gains you are not going to get much,might get a faster spool up time if your lucky.

I do have one for sale if you want it,guaranteed +25 bhp gains

You don't get any gains out of a modified airbox, K&N and a 4" duct, when measured on the dyno.
That's because the inlet system wasn't restrictive to start with.

You may get abit quicker revving...or a bit more go on full throttle after tootling along...but nothing really to write home about.
Just like a cone filter.

But...a fully sealed, insulated inlet system picking up from a high pressure area is sure as hell going to be better for making power on the road, than a heat saturated cone filter picking up air from the engine bay.
That's simple physics.

 

[Ess_Three]

And yes your right my GT4 is the mutts nutts in comparison,never been beat by an S3 and doubt it ever will.

Such a shame I'd not come accross you...it would have given you a shock!

For outright power on long roads, the S3 will always struggle to match the Jap stuff with their higher revving engines with bigger turbos...but off roundabouts and on back roads...different story!

 

[Ess_Three]

Just out of curiosity what power will flow through the airbox,standard or modified?

280-300 BHP seems to be no problem. Standard.
I'll say again, modified will add nothing to write home about on the dyno, as there is nothing restrictive about the standard airbox.

 

[james0808]

But at £100+ vs a new VAG filter every 6 months...is is better?

Strange,i have just brought a nice big cone filter rated at over 500bhp for £39.95 from K+N,so yes it is better.

How much airflow does a 6 month old paper filter loose compared to a brand new one?

 

[Ess_Three]

If i wanted an S3 i could buy one tomorrow,but i dont so i wont.I was actually going to buy an S3 when i sold my A4,but couldnt find a nice one and then when i did find a nice one i went to look at it in my mates 330ci which totally blew the S3 into the weeds,so i brought the 330ci instead and was so glad i did.
It amazes me why people think others cant afford an S3 just because they dont want to own one.
.

So you've been doubting the experiences of others who HAVE actually owned and modified S3s with no actual experience of them?
Nice one.

And incase you missed it the original poster was only after noise,which you will get more of with a cone and only loose power if it is a crap design.

Well, he will get more noise, in a lovely Saxo stylee.
Also worse running in traffic, more heatsoak issues and more than likely decreased performance.

Personal call...but to me, that just doesn't work.

 

[james0808]

280-300 BHP seems to be no problem. Standard.
I'll say again, modified will add nothing to write home about on the dyno, as there is nothing restrictive about the standard airbox.

Dyno's are nothing to write home about at all.
In one week i tried 4 different dyno's with 360hp,330,365 and 301hp.No changes were made to the car and there was no drop or increase in performance on the road,dyno's are not the be all and end all.

What filter would you use on a 400hp S3?

 

[Ess_Three]

Strange,i have just brought a nice big cone filter rated at over 500bhp for £39.95 from K+N,so yes it is better.

Better, how exactly?
Because it's bigger, shinier, more bling and has K&N on it?
Because it absorbs more heat?
Because it makes more noise - therefore the car must BE faster?

How much airflow does a 6 month old paper filter loose compared to a brand new one?

Nothing.
Not even anything noticable over a year.
They can last 18 months and loose no more than a BHP or two - less than a cone looses in heatsoak in fact.

Change them every 6-9 months and you'll have no losses at all.
Even at 280 BHP/330 lb-ft.
Proven.

 

[james0808]

Better, how exactly?
Because it's bigger, shinier, more bling and has K&N on it?
Because it absorbs more heat?
Because it makes more noise - therefore the car must BE faster?




Nothing.
Not even anything noticable over a year.
They can last 18 months and loose no more than a BHP or two - less than a cone looses in heatsoak in fact.

Change them every 6-9 months and you'll have no losses at all.
Even at 280 BHP/330 lb-ft.
Proven.

Bigger and allows a shielded straight intake to the turbo allowing the turbo to spool up nearly 500 rpm earlier making for a faster car and removing the battery to the boot for better weight distribution.
Even at 280 BHP/330 lb-ft,wow that much.

 

[Ess_Three]

Dyno's are nothing to write home about at all.
In one week i tried 4 different dyno's with 360hp,330,365 and 301hp.No changes were made to the car and there was no drop or increase in performance on the road,dyno's are not the be all and end all.

Dynos are a tool.
If you use the same calibrated dyno, with the same operator, same tyre widths, wheels, tyre pressures etc...same fuel, same map etc...you can measure gains and losses by back to back testing.

All my references are to back to back testing, on the same dyno, on the same day. So the results are valid.

More valid than your arguments against...based on tuning other cars!

What filter would you use on a 400hp S3?

I have no idea.
I din't own a 400 BHP S3.
I had no intention of building a 400 BHP can when the chassis isn't fit for 280 BHP
So I don't know which I'd choose.

I suspect i'd make a 3 1/2" pipe from the MAF to behind the bumper, ceramic coated and wrapped in exhaust wrap to keep out the heat - on the end there would be some form of cone filter.

The difference being, it's not taking in hot air from the engine bay, nor conducting any heat into the inlet air.

I'm not anti cone filter...when engineered correctly for the problems associated with specific cars - I am agains the thinking that bolt a open cone filter onto ANY car and get 10 BHP.
That, is plainly crap.

 

[Ess_Three]

Bigger and allows a shielded straight intake to the turbo

Shielded...not sealed. Good plan.

Bigger is better is it?
Again, for the hard of understanding: If the standard inlet is not restrictive, fitting a cone filter the size of Manchester isn't going to give you any gains!
Why is that so hard to take in?

allowing the turbo to spool up nearly 500 rpm earlier making for a faster car and removing the battery to the boot for better weight distribution.

Spool up earlier...not on an S3.
Tried it...didn't work.

Battery to the boot - done that on my GTI for weight distribution purposes...where you actually get a benefit.
On a lardy S3...come on!

Even at 280 BHP/330 lb-ft,wow that much.

So you have more power from your nasty Jap cratation.
I'm impressed.

Do you know anything about the K04 and it's limits?

Stop the petty penis waving and counter the points directly with your experience of S3s...oh yeah, you can't...because you don't have any.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

I'm gonna have to agree with Animal here, the temperatures inside an engine bay are usually significantly hotter than outside temps. A cone filter wont really improve performance..​

Answering your other question its been found that the standard air box can deal with about 300bhp I believe on the S3, but someone will be along to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[james0808]

Shielded...not sealed. Good plan.

Bigger is better is it?
Again, for the hard of understanding: If the standard inlet is not restrictive, fitting a cone filter the size of Manchester isn't going to give you any gains!
Why is that so hard to take in?




Spool up earlier...not on an S3.
Tried it...didn't work.

Battery to the boot - done that on my GTI for weight distribution purposes...where you actually get a benefit.
On a lardy S3...come on!





Sp ypu have more power from your nasty Jap cratation.
I'm impressed.
Stop the petty penis waving and counter the points ditectly with your experience of S3s...oh yeah, you can't...because you don't have any.

How did you manage to get a straight intake on an S3?
And actually yes bigger is better as my old filter ran out of at 340hp and the standard airbox earlier still.
Nasty Jap creation which makes me smile every time i drive it.
Shielded,sealed.You say potato.

 

[Ess_Three]

How did you manage to get a straight intake on an S3?

Shove length of MAF sized tubing onto the MAF and have it hanging over the wing whilst you dyno, to see if you get any gains - with a big cone filter on the eng, in the airflow of the cooling fans.

And the gains were?
Nothing.....

And actually yes bigger is better as my old filter ran out of at 340hp and the standard airbox earlier still.

But that's on your car James, with a bigger turbo and a higher revving engine.
Not an S3...

Nasty Jap creation which makes me smile every time i drive it.

I have no doubt about that...but it's not an S3 (no bad thing in many ways) and does not respond exactly like an S3.
I am talking about an S3 specifically.

Shielded,sealed.You say potato.

The purposes of each are different.
A shield shields the filter from radiated heat - it does not stop it ingesting hot air.
A sealed inlet stops any air being drawn in other than that taken in from a cold area.

An insulated and sealed system - like standard - makes sure only cold air is ingested, and that it stays cold as far as the turbo...which is important where the S3s poor ICs are involved in then cooling it down, post compression.

Potato vs Sprout, really.

 

[james0808]

Battery to the boot - done that on my GTI for weight distribution purposes...where you actually get a benefit.
On a lardy S3...come on!

How heavy is the battery on an S3?
Right up front behind the headlight and infront of the front wheels,or just behind the rear seats?
Must be better even on a lardy S3.

Shove length of MAF sized tubing onto the MAF and have it hanging over the wing whilst you dyno, to see if you get any gains - with a big cone filter on the eng, in the airflow of the cooling fans.

And the gains were?
Nothing.....

Thats not a straight intake,thats straight to the maf not straight to the turbo?

Shove length of MAF sized tubing onto the MAF

Which is not the way to do it even if that was a straight intake,you should have the pipe going to a larger diameter upto the filter like a cone shape.

 

[james0808]

An insulated and sealed system - like standard - makes sure only cold air is ingested, and that it stays cold as far as the turbo...which is important where the S3s poor ICs are involved in then cooling it down, post compression.

Potato vs Sprout, really.

And if you are going to do it right the cold side boost pipes should also be insulated from all the heat under the bonnet.

 

[Ess_Three]

How heavy is the battery on an S3?
Right up front behind the headlight and infront of the front wheels,or just behind the rear seats?
Must be better even on a lardy S3.

Battery is heavy...but even when removed you have to leave the connection box in place that normally sits on top...so sure you can loose 5kgs or more.

You could say the same for the 4.5 litres of water that sit in the same place on the other side. You going to remove that too?

As for best positioning of a re-located battery:
Behind the rear seats?
Is that inside the wheelbase...as that's where it needs to be ideally to aid the polar moments.

Although, on a very nose heavy car, right back can help the corner weighting of the suspension.

Thats not a straight intake,thats straight to the maf not straight to the turbo?

Nope...but as good as you will get with a K04 fitted.

Which is not the way to do it even if that was a straight intake,you should have the pipe going to a larger diameter upto the filter like a cone shape.

Have you ever actually looked under the bonnet of an S3 before giving us your tuning advice?
The TIP reduces the size...so you do indeed have a reducing bore as the air approaches the turbo.
If you have a big cold air duct (say 4") going to the Maf, TIP, turbo you will see that in that set-up you are again reducing the bore, technically increasing air speed as you do so.

You can't do a proper straight inlet to an S3 K04...but I still don't believe that with the size of turbo fitted, it would make a bit of difference, so well designed is the standard set-up for the standard engine.

 

[Ess_Three]

And if you are going to do it right the cold side boost pipes should also be insulated from all the heat under the bonnet.

Ideally yes, I agree.
Although the airflow across them helps for sure.

Ideally ceramic coated, wrapped or at the very least a thick coat of plastic insulating coat to try to stop heat entering (as mine were)

As does re-locating the DV take off to the cold side to not dump hot air back.
...which I had also done.

 

[james0808]

Battery is heavy...but even when removed you have to leave the connection box in place that normally sits on top...so sure you can loose 5kgs or more.

You could say the same for the 4.5 litres of water that sit in the same place on the other side. You going to remove that too?

There will be loads of things you could move to get better weight distribution but here we are talking about the battery and if it is better in the boot or just behind the headlight?

Have you ever actually looked under the bonnet of an S3 before giving us your tuning advice?

Yes i have and it looks very similar to the golf 1.8t i had for years.
Thats why i asked how you got a straight intake on an S3?

The TIP reduces the size...so you do indeed have a reducing bore as the air approaches the turbo.
If you have a big cold air duct (say 4") going to the Maf, TIP, turbo you will see that in that set-up you are again reducing the bore, technically increasing air speed as you do so.

Yes i know,but you had a maf sized pipe going to the filter,which was not increasing in diameter like the rest of the system,like it should.

You can't do a proper straight inlet to an S3 K04..

Like i said I know this so how can you say...

Spool up earlier...not on an S3.
Tried it...didn't work.

How exactly did you try this?

 

[james0808]

You can't do a proper straight inlet to an S3 K04...but I still don't believe that with the size of turbo fitted, it would make a bit of difference, so well designed is the standard set-up for the standard engine.

I agree the standard K04 isnt great but if you could do a straight intake i would bet it would increase the spool up time,granted not by much because of its size but it all adds up in the end.

 

[james0808]

As does re-locating the DV take off to the cold side to not dump hot air back.
...which I had also done.

Cant argue with that one,everyone should do that.Also helps the DV last longer.

 

[Ess_Three]

I really can't be ***** any more...

If people want to believe in gains got on a completely different engine, or based on 'shoulds' then fine. It's their money.

I know what DID and DID NOT work based on me actually buying parts ant trying combinations of what IS possible.

Sure there will be gains to be had if you could run the engine without the constraints of the car...which sadly, I've not found a way to do.

Certain things are different between a K03 golf and a K04 S3.
Certain things aren't possible on a standard S3.
Certain others aren't possible at all.
Theory is great, but when theory and reality collide, reality wins.


Make your own mind up people.
Buy a big cone filter if you like...just don't go expecting sympathy when you don't get the gains some say you will and things don't run too well.

 

[james0808]

I know what DID and DID NOT work based on me actually buying parts ant trying combinations of what IS possible.

There are alot people on here and on other forums who base their entire arguements on other peoples findings some of which are correct and some are complete crap as the tests were done WRONG in the first place so could NOT possibly be accurate.

I agree people should make their own minds up but if you do actually get a gain from something incorrectly tested by an expert on a forum dont post it up because no one will believe you and refer you to the said WRONG tests that they like to believe as gospel.

 

[1animal1]

i think on these forums you will find followers, those that are keen to learn and those that know what they are doing (or seem to)..... either way you learn by listening to others that know more than you do, in this instance I put my faith in Glen and a few others on here because they actually back up what they say with facts which any level headed person can make sense of....ive nothing against you James but your comments on here seem to be for arguments sake, i dont know if you were trying to make a point in that we shouldnt listen to everything we are told or not (if this is the case you should not assume we are all as nieve as you think), in this instance you havent any direct experiance of this particular car - simple fact that you cannot elude

on another note, it will be good to see what sort of 1/4 mile times your Gt4 puts out this coming summer.... purely for you to back up what you preach

 

[Ess_Three]

There are alot people on here and on other forums who base their entire arguements on other peoples findings some of which are correct and some are complete crap as the tests were done WRONG in the first place so could NOT possibly be accurate.

Inaccurate in your mind perhaps. But a damn sight more relevant, accurate and worthwhile that sitting basing your S3 tuning knowledge on a GT4.

All my comments are based on back to back testing on an independant dyno, hired by me with my money, with me swapping the parts and the operator blind to the bits being tested.

The dyno results, as always, are subject to many changes in parameters, but keeping the basics the same (fuel, tie down strap tension, tyre type, tyre pressures, wheel weights, map selected, fuel type etc the same, and allowing an ISO conversion for the rest is close enough to allow my old S3 to make the same power for 2 years on 3 different dynos.

Basically, a lot more relevant that guessing based on a Golf or Celica.

I agree people should make their own minds up but if you do actually get a gain from something incorrectly tested by an expert on a forum dont post it up because no one will believe you and refer you to the said WRONG tests that they like to believe as gospel.

Perhaps you should enlighten us with the 'correct' method of testing then?

I personally don't give a **** whether people believe what I found, or not.
It's odd that I found the majority of parts that I had bought in good faith as giving good gains (dyno tested on the tuners own dyno) didn't give anything close to what they said, on real cars in the real world.

Odd, that I consistantly put down stupid claims and are willing to spend my money trying to prove/disprove them.

If an induction kit had given gains...I'd have run one.
It didn't...so I didn't.

If you want to believe the internet/sales hype...and pass it off as gospel...that's just fine by me.
I really couldn't give a toss.

All I'm trying to do is make people think before they unload their wallets buying crap that makes nothing but noise.

If I applied the 'internet/tuner' tuning methodology I'd have had:
10 BHP/25 lb-ft from the Milltek
10 BHP from an induction kit
10% from the 'power gasket'
All on top of 280 BHP from the re-map...giving a coupound value of around 330 BHP.....which is of course utter ****.
You'd be lucky to break 270 with that lot.

Maybe those products were incorrectly tested by the people making their living by selling them?
Probably...

It's just an opinion.
Read it if you want...ignore it if you want.
I don't care.
At least it's relevant to the engine in quastion.

It's just good to give people educated enough to make the choice for themselves, the information upon which to base their decision.

 

[james0808]

either way you learn by listening to others that know more than you do, in this instance I put my faith in Glen and a few others on here because they actually back up what they say with facts which any level headed person can make sense of....

Without trying to sound arguementative how can you be sure Glens tests are based on facts when Glens version of a straight intake is totally different to what one actually is,the TIP on an S3 is no where near straight,Fact.
Who knows what else was incorrectly tested?

on another note, it will be good to see what sort of 1/4 mile times your Gt4 puts out this coming summer.... purely for you to back up what you preach

Your right it will be because by this summer it will have its new Garrett GT30turbo,Hydra ecu and not sure what clutch i will be putting in it yet but with atleast 450 bhp and similar torque i am pretty sure i will be able to get a decent time.

 

[omegadirective]

James, maybe go and read through all of Glen's previous posts? He has some great stickied threads posted around this forum that backs up what he did to his S3.

At the end of the day, every S3 will be different. Something that worked for Glen may not work for me, or you. But if it worked for him, don't slate him for it...

I think people were genuinely listening properly until you mentioned the fact you don't own an S3 and are only comparing it to your experience of a Golf and your GT4. Shot yourself in the foot with that one I think.

What I would be interested in, and sorry for hi-jacking the thread but it seems relevant after this argument, is what are the best mods to do for the smallest cost?

From my limited knowledge, and reading up on other peoples experience, a remap and a milltek exhaust would be the best upgrades?

 

[james0808]

James, maybe go and read through all of Glen's previous posts? He has some great stickied threads posted around this forum that backs up what he did to his S3.

At the end of the day, every S3 will be different. Something that worked for Glen may not work for me, or you. But if it worked for him, don't slate him for it...

I think people were genuinely listening properly until you mentioned the fact you don't own an S3 and are only comparing it to your experience of a Golf and your GT4. Shot yourself in the foot with that one I think.

What I would be interested in, and sorry for hi-jacking the thread but it seems relevant after this argument, is what are the best mods to do for the smallest cost?

From my limited knowledge, and reading up on other peoples experience, a remap and a milltek exhaust would be the best upgrades?

I know all about the stickies,i read them years ago and was impressed that Glen went through all that effort to show his findings.
I was impressed until he tells me something i know to work doesnt work because HE has tried it and it did nothing only to then be told how he actually did the test,the clue is in the name "straight intake" not just shoving a piece of pipe on the maf and bunging a filter on the end.

 

[james0808]

I think people were genuinely listening properly until you mentioned the fact you don't own an S3 and are only comparing it to your experience of a Golf and your GT4. Shot yourself in the foot with that one I think.

And just to clarify this a little,you dont have to own a car to do work on them.How many Ferrari mechanics actually own a Ferrari,does that mean they know nothing about them???

 

[omegadirective]

Ferrari mechanics are trained to work on Ferraris. Are you trained to work on Audi's?

Do you own an Audi?

I was impressed until he tells me something i know to work doesnt work because HE has tried it and it did nothing only to then be told how he actually did the test,the clue is in the name "straight intake" not just shoving a piece of pipe on the maf and bunging a filter on the end.

As Glen's said a few times, he is referring specifically to the S3. You're refering to a Golf. Don't follow your logic here mate... The Golf is a different car to the S3. Maybe a Golf to an A3, yeah, but the S3's a LOT different under the bonnet. :s

 

[james0808]

Ferrari mechanics are trained to work on Ferraris. Are you trained to work on Audi's?

Do you own an Audi?

No im not trained to work on Audi's,is Glen?
I did own an Audi,so what?Does that mean im more qualified?

 

[omegadirective]

What I'm picking holes in is your wording. Glen owned his Audi.

Ferrari mechanics are trained to work on Ferrari's.

PLEASE, stop arguing for the sake of arguing...

If you don't listen to anyone's replies without slating them, no one will reply to you. I'm certainly not going to bother anymore...

 

[james0808]

I owned my Audi and did lots of modifications to it?It makes no difference if i have actually owned a specific car.
There are loads of cars i havent owned but have tuned.

 

[glen_jai]

...and you clearly didn't read the rules on language and attitude to other users.
Goodbye.

I trust that's perfectly clear?

I know he was writing in uppercase, and targetting you a bit Ess_Three, but I think it was a bit harsh to ban the chap... I've definitely seen worse than that on the forum.

 

[Ian W]

If anyone ends up buying an Induction kit for there S3 then i'll buy your standard airbox.

*This has nothing to do with my wanting rid of the ****** K&N that causes my car to cut out after long journeys and generally makes it sound like a RS turbo*