S3 vs RS6, Evo, Subaru, Cosworth...

[mazzy]

that audi is 70bhp up on yours, the ferrari is 2wd so could do a 0-60 in 10sec if the driver give it too much boot off the line. An RS6 is 70bhp up on the ferrari and has no problem putting the power down.

Mine aint standard buddy! not running 225bhp!

 

[mazzy]

Over what distance exactly?




As you point out that's a 330bhp S3 and it's getting beat everytime, even when it jumps the starts, not even close to maintaining a gap. The 0-60 is near identical for both the 355 and RS6 (4.7 - 4.8 secs).

My S3 now has 330bhp and the difference over a remapped K04 is incredible.

Have a read of Glen's performance testing threads and you'll get an idea of some (but not all ) of the things he did to make his S3 so fast - it's down to a lot more than a remap and a few bolt-on goodies. If his car couldn't even keep up with an S4 then I'd really like to know what it is that's making your car so quick.

Right thats a 300bhp S3 not 330bhp...

As for the S4 issue, which S4 are you talking about? the B5 or B6??

 

[Adams3]

That s3 is 300bhp not 330bhp!!

It is getting beat hard though lol not surprising tbh

 

[ChriS3]

Right thats a 300bhp S3 not 330bhp...

As for the S4 issue, which S4 are you talking about? the B5 or B6??

Yup, my mistake. Only 300bhp

Knowing Glen, I've no doubt it was DavidR's B5 S4.

 

[mattyboy199]

maybe a 2.7bi turbo conversion would help. I cant believe this thread is still going, Chris S3 i would have thought that the power your kidding out would compete with an S4. Also i would like to ask why couldnt the S3 ever compete with the likes of Evo's Scoobs & Cossies ? (is it the weight?)

Matt

 

[ChriS3]

maybe a 2.7bi turbo conversion would help. I cant believe this thread is still going, Chris S3 i would have thought that the power your kidding out would compete with an S4.

I never said I couldn't, I just said Ess Three's S3 couldn't (wait's for the big slap down)

Also i would like to ask why couldnt the S3 ever compete with the likes of Evo's Scoobs & Cossies ? (is it the weight?)

Matt

Weight, gearing, power and torque. They have it better than us.

 

[mattyboy199]

Ok yeah in standard form i agree, weight is an issue but the rest i thought werent a problem.

 

[dummi]

i'd suggest going out in your mates rs6 to find out why this post is so rediculous

 

[The Slug]

maybe the RS6 is running on 4 cylinders

 

[Ryanc]

I can compete with scoobies/cossies/evos ,but when there tuned to the same degree as mine like chris said weight/gearing/4wd system take it's toll.

 

[phill1.8T]

Sorry, but this post is stupid. It couldnt happen, why are we even talking about it?

 

[dummi]

i think its a bit like the 'will the plane take off' thread theres only one logical thing that can happen unless physics is wrong

 

[jojo]

maybe the RS6 is running on 4 cylinders

So you think it's a TDI with an RS6 badge lol

 

[Ess_Three]

Found that most uk/early imports run 14's. Well remapped sti's run similar to my times but then again i'm running a hybrid sti7 ra turbo.
Remapped evo's are a different class.

I could believe that...
The 2000 ish imports with 280 BHP are quick...even more so the Type-Rs with their lower gearing...hell, they are rapid.

I held one off on the roundabouts and coming off them, due to the mental torque delivery of my S3...but at the speeds got to 50-60MPH upwards the STIs really fly...
At silly speeds you can pull them in due to aerodynamics...but I couldn't look at this STI (standard I assume) from about 55MPH up to silly speeds.

 

[Ess_Three]

And remembering that the Audi speedo's are about 3-4mph out at that point. A true 60mph is about 64mph on the clock, according to my Road Angel.

I tested my speedo on Star's calibrated rollers...and mine did 57MPH at the limiter....and my rev limiter was raised slightly, I believe.

 

[Ess_Three]

IIRC, power will give you the ability to make the car go fast, as it can push the air out of the way and overcome drag. Torque is the ability to apply the power, otherwise known as acceleration. High torque, low power will let you accelerate to a certain point, untill the drag kicks in. Low torque, high power will give you a slower accelerating faster car.

Maybe he's all torque

All these points are only valid if the gearing is common.

Low torque, high revving can make for a fast accelerating car with a fast top end...Integra Type-R for example.

With high torque, low power (like many diesels) can be made to accelerate fast and have good top end with suitable gearing...as can low torque cars with high power (ITR)

Ideally of course, high torque AND high power is desirable....then gearing is less of an issue.

This should be the case of the S3 with a big turbo...I'll bet that Chris/Ryans cars would be significantly faster at high speeds than mine was...but on twisty back roads, lots more torque, much lower down will give my old S3 the edge....based on the gearing and weights being equal.

Ideally, an S3 making 330 lb-ft at sub 2500RPM and holding 300 lb-ft and making 330+ BHP at 7000+ would be great...but I don't know of any turbo that can provide it.

 

[Ess_Three]

Knowing Glen, I've no doubt it was DavidR's B5 S4.

Indeed it was...
Not much in it...but the S4 was slightly quicker and standard!
Albeit a fast standard example (which I didn't believe was standard until Audi changed the turbos and ECU...and it was still as quick!)

 

[Ess_Three]

I never said I couldn't, I just said Ess Three's S3 couldn't (wait's for the big slap down)

No slap down required..it's the way it was.
In a straight line....

That battle may have been lost, but the war was not over...picking my battles carefully, the S4 could be hopelessly outclassed...like up the Lecht road where the S3 would start tp pull away, better chassis, balance and brakes would show.
(And yes, even standard S3 vs standard S4 the S3 handles better and brakes better!...which says a lot for the wallowy beast that is the old S4)


I take my hat off to DavidR and his ability to pilot such a barge up back roads at such speed...I drove his S4...and it was horrid!
Big power, lovely engine...but awful to try to get turned in.

 

[ChriS3]

All these points are only valid if the gearing is common.

Should have clarified my statement by saying that all other factors (tyres, gearing, aerodynamics, etc) are assumed to be the same. If you want to compare one S3 against another, then this becomes alot more relevant.

As you say, you're old S3 would toast mine at lower speeds until drag becomes a factor. But in an all out race in a straight line I'd probably just get it.

 

[Ess_Three]

As you say, you're old S3 would toast mine at lower speeds until drag becomes a factor. But in an all out race in a straight line I'd probably just get it.

I'd expect so...
By 6000RPM mine was getting flat in the upper gears...you could feel the push in the back getting less as the speed increased.

I've still driven nothing quite as savage off roundabouts or out of tight corners as my old S3 though...it was proper rapid.

 

[Adams3]

What happened to it Ess three?

It sounds like it was an animal!!!

 

[Ryanc]

My limiter has been raised to 7300rpm ,on a 1/4 i'm in 4th(115ish max) across the line while my mate in his vr6 can do 100 in 3rd.
My max torque figure is 345lb/t@4000rpm.
Like you say glen from 90+ my/chris would leave a remapped s3 for dead.

 

[marmite]

Ok my mate has a 308bhp TT roadster and guess what I leave him for dead from 0 - 60 from 60 - 120 mph when next to me I just pull away, both of us are stupid so there is no probs in driving.

I went up against an 911 Turbo Tip and we were neck and neck after 40 mph, he is slightly lighter then me but then I caught up, went up to 140mph then both stopped, the RS6 was the fastest produced saloon car so they say.

Mine is standard and I have played up against scoobies, evo's and type-r's, you can't beat cc and the amount of torque the RS has.

Your mate must be playing or clearly car is not running right.

I would believe poss to 40 mph as yours will rev quick and is much lighter but once RS is moving no chance.

 

[leecs3]

No slap down required..it's the way it was.
In a straight line....

That battle may have been lost, but the war was not over...picking my battles carefully, the S4 could be hopelessly outclassed...like up the Lecht road where the S3 would start tp pull away, better chassis, balance and brakes would show.
(And yes, even standard S3 vs standard S4 the S3 handles better and brakes better!...which says a lot for the wallowy beast that is the old S4)


I take my hat off to DavidR and his ability to pilot such a barge up back roads at such speed...I drove his S4...and it was horrid!
Big power, lovely engine...but awful to try to get turned in.

the biggest problem with the S4 is weight. Its an absolute killer when it comes to handling. Remove the back seat and spare wheel and go for a spin, you'll be gob smacked.

 

[Ryanc]

Ok my mate has a 308bhp TT roadster and guess what I leave him for dead from 0 - 60 from 60 - 120 mph when next to me I just pull away, both of us are stupid so there is no probs in driving.

I went up against an 911 Turbo Tip and we were neck and neck after 40 mph, he is slightly lighter then me but then I caught up, went up to 140mph then both stopped, the RS6 was the fastest produced saloon car so they say.

Mine is standard and I have played up against scoobies, evo's and type-r's, you can't beat cc and the amount of torque the RS has.

Your mate must be playing or clearly car is not running right.

I would believe poss to 40 mph as yours will rev quick and is much lighter but once RS is moving no chance.

Does you mate have a different turbo? If he doesn't it isn't 300bhp more like 270,plus roadsters are quite heavy.RS6's run 13's on the 1/4 as do rs4's standard or remapped.Porsche 911 turbos can do 12's.

 

[Ess_Three]

I went up against an 911 Turbo Tip and we were neck and neck after 40 mph, he is slightly lighter then me but then I caught up, went up to 140mph then both stopped, the RS6 was the fastest produced saloon car so they say.

Mine is standard and I have played up against scoobies, evo's and type-r's, you can't beat cc and the amount of torque the RS has.

I've been out in a RS6 5 up...and it pulled as hard, if not harder, at silly speeds than my C4S.
Off the line I'd say there wasn't that much in it...but never tried...I'm not THAT stupid!

The RS6s problem is its cornering ability (or lack thereof) and it's braking ability....compared to cars like the 911...but then again you can't put 5 people and luggage in a 911.

I was goaded by an older bloke in a A6...which when he got close enough turned out to be an RS6...now, on a dual carridgeway I'm fully aware of the only way that little 'play' would have gone...so I let him sit there, attempting to goad me into playing...until a roundabout came along.
Down 4 gears, an armfull of opposite lock and a flashing PSM light later the RS6 wasn't there any more.
Nobody said you had to play fair...

RS6s are FAST...and straight line stuff is what they do...and do well.
S3s haven't got a chance unless running a big turbo and LOTS of power.

 

[Ess_Three]

RS6's run 13's on the 1/4 as do rs4's standard or remapped.Porsche 911 turbos can do 12's.

Out of interest, what are the official figures for the RS6?
0-60, 1/4 mile etc...?

I seem to remember they are similar to a C4S....I thought the 996 turbo was a wee bit quicker?

 

[Ess_Three]

the biggest problem with the S4 is weight. Its an absolute killer when it comes to handling. Remove the back seat and spare wheel and go for a spin, you'll be gob smacked.

Sorry to have to argue...but the S4 isn't that much heavier than the S3...and I don't honestly think removing the rear seats and spare would have done much.

The problem with the S4 is the fact that the suspension is crap...under damped, under sprung etc...it wallows about.
There is no bite to the front end (frighteningly so)...and no means of adding negative camber easily to gain some - we tried!
Even an S4 on RS4 suspension (tried that too) was awful on truly windy back roads...great as a dual carridgeway cruiser...but not a drivers car in any way, shape or form.

The S4 brakes look impressive...and roll over and die all too easily...David killed his...replaced them and killed them again. Fitted a very expensive StopTech kit...and killed that too.
And even with these big brakes the S4 wasn't capable of matching the braking of an S3.
Now, David isn't known to be especially kind on brakes...but he's not as aggressive as me...and his current 993 brakes seem to cope perfectly well...the S4 was just bad under braking.

Heavy cars can be made to handle and stop...the S4 just wasn't close.

 

[Ess_Three]

What happened to it Ess three?

It sounds like it was an animal!!!

My S3?
It was an animal...properly sorted.
Sublime brakes and suspension...wery well set up...great to drive...just not as thrilling as I was hoping for.

I sold it to DavidR (another Admin on here) who has since gone down the 911 route and sold it to David Joseph (DJ Motorsport on here)...it is still on the go...and being driven the way it was intended, by David J.

 

[leecs3]

Sorry to have to argue...but the S4 isn't that much heavier than the S3...and I don't honestly think removing the rear seats and spare would have done much.

The problem with the S4 is the fact that the suspension is crap...under damped, under sprung etc...it wallows about.
There is no bite to the front end (frighteningly so)...and no means of adding negative camber easily to gain some - we tried!
Even an S4 on RS4 suspension (tried that too) was awful on truly windy back roads...great as a dual carridgeway cruiser...but not a drivers car in any way, shape or form.

The S4 brakes look impressive...and roll over and die all too easily...David killed his...replaced them and killed them again. Fitted a very expensive StopTech kit...and killed that too.
And even with these big brakes the S4 wasn't capable of matching the braking of an S3.
Now, David isn't known to be especially kind on brakes...but he's not as aggressive as me...and his current 993 brakes seem to cope perfectly well...the S4 was just bad under braking.

Heavy cars can be made to handle and stop...the S4 just wasn't close.

if they weighed the same and i had to choose one make track worthy, i take the S4. The rear bulkhead makes saloons much stiffer and reduce weight transfer. The brakes fading is again weight. Get you mate to try stripping it out for his next trackday and softening the rear dampers.

 

[Ess_Three]

if they weighed the same and i had to choose one make track worthy, i take the S4. The rear bulkhead makes saloons much stiffer and reduce weight transfer. The brakes fading is again weight. Get you mate to try stripping it out for his next trackday and softening the rear dampers.

Let me give you an example...

540 BHP RS4 on £8000 worth of suspension and £6000 worth of brakes...vs my (then David R's) 270+ BHP S3...with well set up suspension (Bilsteins, H&Rs, Neuspeed ARBs, aggressive geometry) and Brembo front brakes...
S3 was faster round Knockhill...
Same driver - David .

You'd pick the S4?

I don't think so...the suspension design is seriously compromised for trackday stuff...unless you go to the trouble ot re-engineering all the pick-up points etc like the touring cars did.

 

[marmite]

I've been out in a RS6 5 up...and it pulled as hard, if not harder, at silly speeds than my C4S.
Off the line I'd say there wasn't that much in it...but never tried...I'm not THAT stupid!

The RS6s problem is its cornering ability (or lack thereof) and it's braking ability....compared to cars like the 911...but then again you can't put 5 people and luggage in a 911.

I must agree the RS6 goes well straight and to a point around corners, but the 996 is a total different kettle off fish, RS6 is a saloon car made vary fast and tried to be a sports car..996 is bread and brought up with only one thing from the early age of build..race and track...As they say with Porsche "Race at the weekend buy it on the Monday!!!"

I went up against a Turbo sluggatronic..against a manual no way...!!

The C4S is my favorite Porsche and I have driven them all now..no I lie not the GT, 959 and some of the old stuff, but all 996,997,986,987 cayenne.. the C4S is so balanced just thr right amount of power.

RS6 is great and I love the fact it is so dame quick but the wife can use it during the week with the 2 kids strapped in the back double buggy and a boot full of shopping and the mother in law in tow..!! that is what the RS6 is all about for me, throw everyone in, boot full or gear and off you go still lightening quick as she has so much torque you hardly notice.

How quick it is around a track really dosn't bother me as I have not had the pleasure of doing it, and would rather use a porsche around a track, got the new 3.4 Box S coming next week, so might give that ago, all ready been around milbrook alpine course and the bowl in it, great car that is 996 C4S one day I hope!!!

Anyway this thread was started all over some guy with the quickest S3 ever wasn't it??

 

[marmite]

Does you mate have a different turbo? If he doesn't it isn't 300bhp more like 270,plus roadsters are quite heavy.

Yeah he had a bigger turbo some Jap thing from memory and some ram air in take system(carbon fibre thing) Remap, race exhaust, DV valve and bigger intercooler, didn't take notice of what makes or sizes no it cost him a fortune, TT shop did some things and another company the rest. 308bhp was on the rolling road print out, it is a very fast and drivable car, all the suspension and brakes have now been done and strut braces fitted. I'm waiting for the engine to go bang think he is going to try to get is past the 350bhp mark, but the gearing needs to be changed..that is all I know about it. very very fast and vary noisey!!!

 

[Ess_Three]

I must agree the RS6 goes well straight and to a point around corners, but the 996 is a total different kettle off fish, RS6 is a saloon car made vary fast and tried to be a sports car..996 is bread and brought up with only one thing from the early age of build..race and track...As they say with Porsche "Race at the weekend buy it on the Monday!!!"

As you say, completely different...

One purely driver focussed, the other being the one you'd pick to transport all your family in sublime comfort from one side of a continent to the other at silly speeds!

The C4S is my favorite Porsche and I have driven them all now..no I lie not the GT, 959 and some of the old stuff, but all 996,997,986,987 cayenne.. the C4S is so balanced just thr right amount of power.

I agree...
It's just sooooo well set up and balanced...yet takes real effort and ability to get the best from it.
I've had mine nearly 2 years now and only now do I get the PSM light on in the dry...

RS6 is great and I love the fact it is so dame quick but the wife can use it during the week with the 2 kids strapped in the back double buggy and a boot full of shopping and the mother in law in tow..!! that is what the RS6 is all about for me, throw everyone in, boot full or gear and off you go still lightening quick as she has so much torque you hardly notice.

That's what I noticed...1 person or 5, it didn't seem to matter.

How quick it is around a track really dosn't bother me as I have not had the pleasure of doing it, and would rather use a porsche around a track, got the new 3.4 Box S coming next week, so might give that ago, all ready been around milbrook alpine course and the bowl in it, great car that is 996 C4S one day I hope!!!

Nice choice, the new Box S... :thumbsup:

My C4S is a bit of a trade-off...it's on the X73 suspension pack, so lowered and stiffened...better for the track and the smooth stuff (absolutely perfect at the 'ring) but a real handful on the badly surfaced backroads.
Good fun though...

Anyway this thread was started all over some guy with the quickest S3 ever wasn't it??

Yeah, so it was.
Much more fun talking about real cars though...

 

[marmite]

My RS is with the wife and I'm playing witht the 997 turbo this weekend Tip not sluggatronic this time...what a car first car I have driven since the RS and thought Sh_t this is quick..Good balance tons of power dare I say it, oh what the hell to much...can't believe I said it out loud..this car eats the road..the RS you run out of road but this thing won't stop it keeps going all the way round to the red..!! but it is £100k of car and you you could buy a RS6, C4s and just for fun a Cab smart car for that and insure them all..!!
Good choice of wheels on the C4s to, I drove the gt3 rs yesterday and I must say that is not no way a road car and yet people buy and drive them every day..why...thought all my teeth were going to fall out.

 

[ChriS3]

Out of interest, what are the official figures for the RS6?
0-60, 1/4 mile etc...?

I seem to remember they are similar to a C4S....I thought the 996 turbo was a wee bit quicker?

Evo's figures for the RS6 are 0-60 in 4.8 secs, and 0-100 in 11.6 secs. No mention of the 1/4 mile. I think there was one running at inters, but I can't remember how well he went.

 

[funkymofo]

I seem to remember reading stadard RS6 was good for 13.3 1/4 mile runs, which seems about right based on the 0-60/0-100 times......ish

 

[marmite]

Taken from the Audi Website
Audi RS6 quattro
Performance:
Top Speed (MPH): 155
0-60 (secs): 4.7
Torque (Nm): 560 @ 5600 RPM
Torque Imp (lb/ft): 413 @ 5600 RPM
Cubic Capacity (cc): 4172
Horse Power (PS): 450

 

[Ess_Three]

Taken from the Audi Website
Audi RS6 quattro
Performance:
Top Speed (MPH): 155
0-60 (secs): 4.7
Torque (Nm): 560 @ 5600 RPM
Torque Imp (lb/ft): 413 @ 5600 RPM
Cubic Capacity (cc): 4172
Horse Power (PS): 450

Probably fairly similar preformance to my C4S off the line and in a straight line thrash, in the real world (I got a 5.1 0-60 at GTI Int'l this year, nannying my clutch, PSM still left on) although the mid range, in gear times are where the RS6 monsters most things, with all that torque.

 

[marmite]

I had a 2.5tdi Allroad and that had tons of Torque too, after driving that it was hard to decied what to go for really.plus need the A6 size car with the kids and that too.
The RS is great for touring in and was never designed to race people off the line.(but it can of course)
I feel the RS is quicker then the C4S and feels more powerfull but that could also be the weight of it too, don't get me wrong the 4S is by far the best of the 911, 993, 996, 997 which ever you choose C4S all day long 24/7/365 for me!!! I'm a big fan and lucky enough to drive them when ever I want as we run 1 of every model on the demo list...

I will run the new 997 against mine next weekend when we go to france, 997T, 360 F1, M3 e36(380bhp he says!!), RS6, TT we are all going for a boys week end 1400 mile round trip Ferrari will break down always does!!!! 997T will be the one for me to watch, will try and get some pics and poss vid, E36 has camera points fitted in it

Enjoy