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2.0 TDI oil pump / balance shaft failure?

Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B7 Chassis)' started by P Crr, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    The two schools of thought here are as follows;
    1) There are a lot of gear driven oil pumps out there from engines that have done high mileages and have not failed and the only people who post on this section are from disgruntled owners who have had issues. As such I am not going to do anything and just run my car. I think this is a good attitude to take and if my own engine (BLB) had been say a BRE unit I think I would have gone down this route.

    2) The second school says there are a lot ( whatever a lot is ?) of gear driven oil pumps where the hex shaft has rounded and serious engine/ turbo damage has been done and I AM GOING TO PREVENT THIS.I believe these owners have replaced or just reversed the hex drive connection from the balance shatft assy to the oil pump.This is a pro active measure that can be done at relative minimum cost.

    In summary " you pays your money and you takes your pick ", there are no hard and fast rules here and its up to the individual to
    determine what's best for him and his pocket.
     
  2. tr3m5

    tr3m5 Audi Newbie

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    Cheers for the reply, I think I will definately take some action regarding the hex issue.

    One thing I will definitely be doing is changing the oil every 6k in between yearly services as I've looked at a great deal of Diesel VAG cars and the general condition of the oil is terrible, I'm assuming this is mostly due to higher mileage vehicles (over 50k) have a reasonable amount of blowby which puts both unburnt fuel and soot into the oil which seems to reduce viscosity and probably have other derogatory effects on the lubricity of the oil. I have suspicions that the long service interval cars will be more likely to fall victim to these failures because of this.

    Is there a guide anywhere on how to remove the balance shafts so I can get the hex drive repaired?

    Thanks again
    Paul
     
  3. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    Oil has nothing to do with the balance shaft /oil pump issues under discussion in this sticky.
    The problems have arisen due to Audi knowingly having a latent defect design issue out in the market place and then doing nothing about it , just leaving it to the individual to sort and to pay for.................rant over !
    That said I had my own BLB coverted to a gear driven unit at the main dealer.
    If you want to know how much work is involved on your own BRE unit then I am sorry I can't be specifc but the information is out there on other forums. Spend some time researching this and trawling through this sticky and it will be a few hours well spent.

    Paul B7
     
  4. tr3m5

    tr3m5 Audi Newbie

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    Is the hex shaft not oil lubricated then?
     
  5. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    The wearing of the shaft has nothing to do with lubrication .
    The wearing of the hex shaft into one of a round profile is bacause the male shaft is a very poor fit into the female mating end and as a result this "slop" causes the shaft to mechanically wear on drive rotation.I deally the shaft would not have any "slop" and hence it could not move and hence it would not wear.
    Hope this helps explain things and please do take the time to research this issue, its well worth the read if only to find out other people experiences and opinions.

    Paul B7
     
  6. tr3m5

    tr3m5 Audi Newbie

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    I've read a number of forums' threads on this but often people haven't stipulated exactly what engine spec/service history they have.

    Lubrication has a huge influence on mechanical wear so I'm keen to learn more about the links to servicing.

    2 Questions:

    1. Has anyone had the hex shaft failure on a spur-geared engine?

    2. Has anybody had the hex shaft problem in an engine which has a had a 'conventional' service history (i.e 10-12k miles between oil services) ?

    Cheers
     
  7. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    To answer your specific questions and using your notation the answers are;

    1) Read this sticky in full and yes there are instances of gear driven units failing as a result of the hex shaft rounding and on cars with a full and "conventional" service history.

    2) The hex shaft on my BLB engine also rounded and cause a loss of oil press, this necessitated new bearings when the gear conversion was done by the main dealer. My car had the shaft round off at 68,000 miles and the car had a full service history using mineral oils based on 10,000mile intervals.

    I hope this information helps you make the right decision for you.

    Paul B7
     
  8. raffhussain

    raffhussain Member

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    Hi ppl

    Im another victim of the dreaded oil pump failure. Gave it into an indi today and got a call with the news. turbo seized due to oil pump failure. £2500 for repair. oooch
    Got it recovered back home until i can think of what do do with it. Ive seen around that ppl will recondition the old unit.

    THIS INCLUDE REGENERATION OF BALANCING SHAFT(RECONDITIONING AND MAKING IN SOCKET 2.3CM DEPPER AND FITTING NEW GENUINE 10CM HEX.DRIVE INSTEAD OF 7.7CM OLD)

    sorry its in caps i copied from ebay. what i wanted to ask is if this would be a good idea or should i buy the oil pump with the gear driven blance shaft used unit with warrenty? this would mean i would need the sump changed to fit the new oil pump. would i need anything else apart froma turbo lol? i just want some advice and i know there is alot of ppl on here that would be happier to help.

    thanks in advance
     
  9. matthew999

    matthew999 Member

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    Hi that eBay add sounds Like the polish person tomek. Reading through polish forums using google translate he came across ad a bit of a ****. There is also an Irish company doing this refurb. Might he worth speaking to them, at least there isn't the language barrier.
     
  10. tr3m5

    tr3m5 Audi Newbie

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    Sorry to hear about your engine mate. What engine code is it out of interest?
     
  11. raffhussain

    raffhussain Member

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    Thanks mate. Engine Code is blb and done 124k full Audi service history. Yeh I think the guy is polish. I spoke to him on the fone n couldn't understand a word. So I told him do 1. Lol. Yeh I hear of them. Power max I think they called. I also know someone with a used gear driven unit n the guy selling it with warranty or I can send my old unit and have it converted to the gear driven from power max. Need to source a turbo or get the old one refurbed. Just don't know if the engine is seized. Younger brother took the car and he didn't tell me what happened until I jumped in and started it later that night and it started smoking. So I left it and didn't move or drive it. I spoke to him later and he said that on his way home 2 mins from home it started smoking and then he parked it up. He has driven it for a few mins that's is why the turbo seized and I don't know if the engine has either.
     
  12. fossie

    fossie Member

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    Hello people, I take it that this wont effect a 56 (2007 I think 2007) 2.0 Tdi.... ive been reading a few posts on here and its doesnt appear so... just want some confirmation lol

    Regards
    Lee
     
    #772 fossie, Aug 19, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  13. tr3m5

    tr3m5 Audi Newbie

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    Check your engine number mate, by all accounts if it starts 'BLB' you would be right to be concerned. Although its unlikely as I have an 06 and it's a 'BRE' engine
     
  14. fossie

    fossie Member

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    Just checked. Its BRE
     
  15. Audiholic

    Audiholic New Member

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    Having read these posts im now concerned about my audi. I have an 07 (2007) A4, 2.0tdi 170hp with an engine code BRD. Will this problem affect my engine or just the codes as above? Ive recently spent way to much on new driveshafts and rear springs, and still have front suspension noise issues, so this is something else i could do without....hassle and expense!!:sos:
     
  16. Cribbon

    Cribbon Member

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    this is now worrying mine is an brd 170ps engine and currently running lump on idle at times but not always and audi have sai that the tandem pump needs replacing which im getting someone else to do other the the conartist audi them self!
     
  17. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    If its a BLB coded engine from early 2005 and possibly into 2006 you will very likely have an oil pump /balance shaft problem. Some will say you will certainly have a failure, its just a case of when.
    If your car has some other engine code e.g BRE or BRD etc its possible that you will have the hex shaft drive to the oil pump eventually round off causing loss of oil pressure and all the attendant problems etc etc. but the evidence says that with the other engine codes ( i.e. not BLB engines) this is just a possibility and will not effect all owners.
     
  18. Willalone

    Willalone New Member

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    I thought I was safe having deliberatly bought a BRE (06) engined car.. afraid not.. I've just suffered oil pump failure.. :(
     
  19. Wrath

    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    As mentioned earlier on in this heavy thread, I had someone contact me saying they received the shaft problem on a petrol while on a motorway!
     
  20. FlawlessA4

    FlawlessA4 New Member

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    Hey Guys.

    Have the dredded B7 2.0 tdi myself. i have 158K miles on it now, dont know if the pump was changed or not, no record of it but I've the replacement Audi pump ordered and its waiting for me at an indi Audi specialist in Cork. the pump alone is €997 !!!! then ive all the belts to do and few other bits, total "parts" only bill is €1650. so ive to add labour onto that also, so about 3K all in ! If the pump had been replaced already ill save about 1600 part and labour, maybe more but i wont know til the pump is visible.

    The way im looking at this situation is, pay the money, never worry about the pump and drive the car into the ground for the next 100K :)

    From a non mechanic point of view, is there any obvious way of telling the difference between the two pumps ? just to make sure i donnt get "shafted" ? mind the pun haha.

    Cheers guys

    Padraic
     
  21. Wrath

    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    The only way of definitely knowing is taking the sump off.
     
  22. zollybosher

    zollybosher Member

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    I fell foul of the hex issue whilst on the motorway on a fully serviced fleet car at 80K pressure went to 0 in a blink of an eye turns out the hex shafts were worn.

    The question I have is and I just want to clarify this? From reading the posts above it would seem that I can take some preventative measures in respect of this happening again by means of conversion? Whilst not technical in anyway, can someone advise on what I need to have done in order to stop/minimize this fault happening again
     
  23. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    I would respectfully suggest one takes the time (about 2.0 hrs)to read the posts in this thread and then draw your own conclusions as to the best way forward for your own vehicle as whatever you do will cost money, YOUR MONEY ( and certainly not Audis) so you need to satisfy yourself what you are doing is the right thing for you.
     
  24. Willalone

    Willalone New Member

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    There's not enough pictures in this thread, so I thought I'd add one:

    [​IMG]

    This the balance shaft assembly on my BRE engined A4.. the hex shaft is intact, its the drop gears from the crank that have failed. They reckon a C clip has come loose and got into the gears causing chaos.

    The engine needs a full rebuild which effectively writes the car off as the repair will be approx £1k less than the cars current market value (its done 149,500 miles).

    So I'm left with a 06 plate A4 Sline rolling shell..
     
  25. Wrath

    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    Feel sorry for you mate, that's awful news.
     
  26. tr3m5

    tr3m5 Audi Newbie

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    What bad luck mate, definitely appears to have had debris in the gears, either a foreign object or the balance shaft has some play (bearing wear possibly) causing the teeth to partially un-mesh, but you would probably be able to feel that on inspection.

    What were the symptoms when driving?

    If it helps I'm after some S-line parts for my 06, if you break yours let me know and I'll take some parts off your hands.

    Paul
     
  27. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    This is awful news and you have my sympathy. That said I would chance a secondhand engine and would make enquiries accordingly , good luck .
     
  28. Willalone

    Willalone New Member

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    None except for immediatly prior to the failure. About 5 miles prior I had heard a noise that sounded like something touching the radiator fan, it was very quiet, so quiet that my passenger couldn't hear it. I genuinely assumed that a twig or something similar would be found on inspection (I intended to look when I arrived at work). Then the noise went away..

    I was doing about 50mph in 5th on the A339 when the oil pressure buzzer went off, I immediatly shut off and rolled to a stop in a side road..
     
  29. Boro&Beth

    Boro&Beth Member

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    That sucks!

    My last Audi was an A4 with the BLB engine. As soon as I found out about this being an issue, I sold it!

    I would never go near another 2.0tdi engine again, even the BRE/BRD.


    CTRL + Q to Enable/Disable GoPhoto.it
     
  30. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    i think thats a bit harsh as I am hoping to sell mine
     
  31. Boro&Beth

    Boro&Beth Member

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    Luckily, unless your on the forums or had the problem, most people are unaware there is an issue, so selling one isn't a problem. Atleast, selling ours wasnt.
     
  32. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    Joking aside, like you and once my warranty has run out (2 year warranty given by Tesside Audi on the repair) I will not be having a 2.o tdi unit again. £2k for the "pleasure" of fixing an Audi design fault which they fully know exists and have ignored to recompense their customers for is just too much for me.
     
  33. Michaelkirkup

    Michaelkirkup New Member

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    Just bought an 05 b7 s line blb, 116k miles, after reading all horror stories (after I'd bought it I must add lol!) I decided to pull mine apart and investigate, I found it still on the old.chain driven unit with a new chain and tensioner fitted with a 2011 date on! Bonus! Anyway the hex shaft was worn on the driving sides close to rounding! On close inspection I I found that a new hex shaft measured 5.9 something mm but the sockets of oil pump and shaft were around 6.1 mm, so the 'slop' of the poor design is what wears the shaft! I had the shaft hardness tested at an eng shop and found that a good quality Allen key is of equal quality and hardness to the vag shaft, after this I had a 7mm Allen key surface ground to produce a perfect 6.1 something mm shaft which fits the sockets precisely with no slop at all its now back together running perfectly for very little cost and due to the precise fit.should never again be a problem
     
  34. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    On my own car the tensioner had gone AND the hex shaft had rounded producing low oil pressure and necessitating new bearing shells having to be fitted as well as the new oil pump/balance shaft assembly. Great result for you only wish i had been as fortunate.

    Paul B7
     
  35. Boro&Beth

    Boro&Beth Member

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    That's quite interesting. What exactly did the hardness test consist of? I'm guessing you hardness tested the allen key material too?
     
  36. Chadders

    Chadders Member

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    Well I've read alot of this thread and it feels like I'm reading my cars epitaph or inscription on its headstone. I'm seriously considering selling up which is a shame because I'm really pleased with the car overall. The light at the end of the tunnel seems to be a mechanic bringing the news that I have a £2000+ repair bill and my engine seems to be running fine. I've just bought a 2005 55reg A6 2.0TDI with full Audi SH and 113k on the clock. I know it doesn't have the BLB engine because I was given the heads up about this engine before I bought it, so I checked the V5 before going ahead. However it seems as though all the 2.0TDI engines are likely to failure due to oil pump issues is there anyone on here who hasn't had a problem.
     
  37. Michaelkirkup

    Michaelkirkup New Member

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    Hi again, I'm not exactly sure of what the hardness test consisted of as it was done at an engineering shop.where my friend works, but yes the Allen key material was tested as a 7 mm Allen key then again after grinding to ensure there were no changes. As long as you catch it before it actually rounds your onto a winner, I would imagine any high tech eng shop could make up an oversize shaft as long as they have a surface grinding machine
     
  38. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    Not ALL the 2.o tdi engines have this fault so keep smiling as you MAY be lucky and not have the problem.
     
  39. Chadders

    Chadders Member

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    Cheers Paul what are the investagtive costs involved in this issue thinking of having it looked at to catch anyhting before it falls! I can call the Audi dealer who has serviced it all its life and ask if they're aware of anything
     
  40. Paul B7

    Paul B7 Active Member

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    I am only aware of the repair costs...............
    That said a call to the Audi dealer (assuming its been serviced within the Audi franchise all its life?) should reveal if its had the problem and been repaired by a garage in the Audi franchise ( Audi keep computerised service and repair records).
    Other than that the only way to be sure of whats going on would be to have the sump dropped off and to have the assembly inspected by a knowlegable mechanic who knows what he is looking for.

    Good luck .
     

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