Recommendations for timing belt change

[Squattro4]

Hi guys,

I know this topic has been discussed to death but looking for some best recommendations with how to handle the dreaded timing issue. I've got a 3.2 2005 A4 which suddenly began misfiring, skip forward 3 days and the garage have told me that my timing belt/chain (Sorry, not particularly clued up on which) is stretched and that i'm looking at (£5000) for genuine audi parts + labour or (£2500) for an aftermarket kit + parts. £2500 is certainly more favourable but is there anyway of getting the price down/best garages in the east anglia/midlands area for this sort of thing?

Thanks

 

[Mario]

£2500 price difference in parts?! REALLY?!?! I'm not 100% clued up, with these, but I have read a little bit here & there. First of all, from what I understand it is a chain (or series of chains to be exact).

The biggest issue is the labour, as the chain is located at the back of the engine near the bulkhead, so to gain access you need to pull the engine forward or remove it from the car.

I am a bit doubtful the price difference in parts between genuine and aftermarket is £2500. If I were you I would call up Audi themselves and get a price for all the parts you need.

I am assuming it's a 4.2L S4 going by your username? Your original post says 3.2L, but I can't find any info on a 3.2L of that age. There is a 3.0L V6 that uses a belt, but the 4.2L V8 in the S4 is chain driven. Diagram of the chain setup down below....

Can you clarify if it is the 4.2L V8 (S4) you have or the 3.0L V6 (A4)??

Just for reference, here is the 3.0L V6 setup

 

[Paul battams]

£2500 price difference in parts?! REALLY?!?! I'm not 100% clued up, with these, but I have read a little bit here & there. First of all, from what I understand it is a chain (or series of chains to be exact).

The biggest issue is the labour, as the chain is located at the back of the engine near the bulkhead, so to gain access you need to pull the engine forward or remove it from the car.

I am a bit doubtful the price difference in parts between genuine and aftermarket is £2500. If I were you I would call up Audi themselves and get a price for all the parts you need.

I am assuming it's a 4.2L S4 going by your username? Your original post says 3.2L, but I can't find any info on a 3.2L of that age. There is a 3.0L V6 that uses a belt, but the 4.2L V8 in the S4 is chain driven. Diagram of the chain setup down below....

Can you clarify if it is the 4.2L V8 (S4) you have or the 3.0L V6 (A4)??

Just for reference, here is the 3.0L V6 setup

I've repaired these before yep all labour intensive all depends what you put in to how much parts are but inside an engine I would use Audi parts all the way


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[Squattro4]

£2500 price difference in parts?! REALLY?!?! I'm not 100% clued up, with these, but I have read a little bit here & there. First of all, from what I understand it is a chain (or series of chains to be exact).

The biggest issue is the labour, as the chain is located at the back of the engine near the bulkhead, so to gain access you need to pull the engine forward or remove it from the car.

I am a bit doubtful the price difference in parts between genuine and aftermarket is £2500. If I were you I would call up Audi themselves and get a price for all the parts you need.

I am assuming it's a 4.2L S4 going by your username? Your original post says 3.2L, but I can't find any info on a 3.2L of that age. There is a 3.0L V6 that uses a belt, but the 4.2L V8 in the S4 is chain driven. Diagram of the chain setup down below....

Can you clarify if it is the 4.2L V8 (S4) you have or the 3.0L V6 (A4)??

Just for reference, here is the 3.0L V6 setup

Hi Mario, thanks for the response, it's a fairly reputable garage (Lindleys Autocentres) and they apparently will only use Audi OEM parts, but in this instance they went looking for aftermarket to help me with the price. They told me on the phone that the parts required from audi themselves cost £3000(!) the rest is just labour.

Finally, at least in my understanding it's definitely a 3.2l A4? At least that's what it's badged etc, i don't know if Audi call it 3.2 but technically it's still a 3l engine or something?

 

[Squattro4]

Sorry, quickly wanted to add that the car only has 49,000 miles so this has happened way earlier than i thought it should... Is that indicative of anything at all?

 

[GeForce>XI<]

I bet it's not the chain these have 2 cam sensors it's it's same as the s4.
The cam sensors are common and also the guids are common but you usually can hear it.
I have a friend that's had 2 s4 and still has 1.
His has done over 100k and is fine it's remapped and supercharged.

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[Mario]

Quite possible as GeForce has said, could be the cam sensors. Have you had it connected to VCDS and checked for any error codes? I would be very surprised if the chain or tensioners have failed after just 49,000 miles on a properly maintained engine.

For your sake I hope it is the cam sensors, as this is what the chain setup looks like at the back of the engine. No wonder it needs to come out to get it all timed up!

 

[Squattro4]

Quite possible as GeForce has said, could be the cam sensors. Have you had it connected to VCDS and checked for any error codes? I would be very surprised if the chain or tensioners have failed after just 49,000 miles on a properly maintained engine.

For your sake I hope it is the cam sensors, as this is what the chain setup looks like at the back of the engine. No wonder it needs to come out to get it all timed up!

I put in my own little bluetooth tool and that came back with camshaft sensor errors and misfires across the cylinders, i then had the AA come out who spent perhaps an hour taking out all of the coils and plugs, cleaning them and putting them back in (they had oil on them from faulty rocker gasket), in an effort to chase the misfire. However it immediately came back, his hunch was that it was a timing issue and opted to have it towed than risk me driving it. It was dropped off at the already mentioned garage and they've come back with timing too so presumably i'm **** out of luck

I'd love to move the car to a couple different garages or something for some quotes but it's much more difficult when it's un-drivable aha. Does anyone know a cheap place to rent a trailer or something?

 

[Mario]

So you got camshaft sensor errors then the AA proceeded to clean the coils and plugs...after that was done the timing was condemned.

Maybe I'm missing something here but why have you not replaced the camshaft sensor which was throwing up errors? If there is a stored error code for that part then first thing to look at is sorting that. Only after that is resolved should you be looking elsewhere.

First thing I would do in your shoes is get a new camshaft sensor that was throwing up errors and test it out. Then and only then would I be looking elsewhere if the issue still persists.

Oh, and sort your rocket gasket if it is leaking oil into the coils & plugs. That's not going to help matters either.

 

[GeForce>XI<]

I bet I can beat any price at any garage.
My bro in law owns the garage I work at and have a ramp that I can use as I please.
I would have to price parts up genuine and none genuine.
I could provide warranty and also receipt along with stamped.
I do plenty of timing belts n chains.
A friend had a s4 his was coming up with cam sensors but it was rattling and sounded like the guide was broke or more then 1.
He played 5k for an engine rebuild and it come back sounding like a bag of nails.
I told him I would drop engine and redo it for £1800 but he would need pay for parts as I needed depending oncevi stripped it.

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[Retroman]

49,000 is low mileage for a timing chain issues. Some cars are known for timing chain problems e.g. some of the earlier BMW Mini Copper S models, certain 2.0 BMWs and small Vauxhalls - but I'm not aware that Audis are in particular. The noise from "loose" chains is normally more noticeable upon starting the car and then on idle once engine warmed. As said above I would first, at least, rule out a much simpler sensor issue - not unusual for 12-year old sensors to start to break down and fail.

 

[Squattro4]

We have arranged for recovery of your vehicle.Patrol found the following fault code/s:\N{<control-000D>}\N{<control-000D>}System : Engine control 1 - A0E / Simos 6\N{<control-000D>}\N{<control-000D>} Status 0013 - Camshaft displacement (bank 1), outlet. Error Message : Faulty operation. Error static.\N{<control-000D>} Status 0366 - Camshaft position sensor. Error Message : Signal improbable. Error static.\N{<control-000D>} Status 0302 - Combustion failure cylinder 2 detected. Error Message : Short to B+. Error static.\N{<control-000D>} Status 0303 - Combustion failure cylinder 3 detected. Error Message : Short to B+. Error static.\N{<control-000D>} Status 0301 - Combustion failure cylinder 1 detected. Error Message : Short to B+. Error sporadic.\N{<control-000D>} Status 1364 - Ignition triggering, cylinder 4. Error Message : Open circuit. Error static.\N{<control-000D>} Status 1367 - Ignition triggering, cylinder 5. Error Message : Open circuit. Error sporadic.\N{<control-000D>} Status 1365 - Ignition triggering, cylinder 4. Error Message : Short to B+. Error static.\N{<control-000D>} Status 0305 - Combustion failure cylinder 5 detected. Error Message : Short to B+. Error static.\N{<control-000D>} Status 1370 - Ignition triggering, cylinder 6. Error Message : Open circuit. Error static.\N{<control-000D>} Status 0306 - Combustion failure cylinder 6 detected. Error Message : Short to B+. Error static.\N{<control-000D>} Status 1358 - Ignition triggering, cylinder 2. Error Message : Open circuit. Error static.\N{<control-000D>} Status 1361 - Ignition triggering, cylinder 3. Error Message : Open circuit. Error static.\N{<control-000D>}\N{<control-000D>}\N{<control-000D>}Engine misfire.Oil and water ok.Error code for cam sensor improbable and misfire cylinder 2/3.Removed coils cleaned oil debris from leaking rocker cover.Swapped coils 3/1 error still present cam sensor code first followed by coil codes.Given the risk of further damage if cam timing is out I have opted to arrange recovery to avoid further complications. -

I'm almost certainly over simplifying it, here's the full recovery report in the quote above (It's a bit of a mess with the formatting), but presumably the garage has used their oscilloscope and such to identify the problem? Presumably they aren't guessing?

I don't have anything to quote from the garage to send but i can phone them and double check, they just seem pretty certain of the fault and i feel bad asking them what might be stupid questions due to my lack of mechnical knowledge.

 

[Mario]

That report does say what you have mentioned above. They found a cam sensor fault and some other misfire / ignition faults, then swapped the coils to see if the fault followed and it didn't so eventually condemned the timing. However that does not rule out the cam sensor, it only rules out the coil.

As for a garage testing with their oscilloscope, I'm a bit doubtful about that unless they are a VERY good garage. I've seen mechanics who can't even work a basic multi-meter to test voltage & resistance, never mind a proper scope to test a cam sensor.

Don't assume they have done the proper checks. Maybe they have, but maybe they haven't, so its worth double checking exactly what they did to come to the conclusion the timing chains were failing. It's A LOT of money to spend without being 100% sure it is definitely needed.

 

[Squattro4]

That report does say what you have mentioned above. They found a cam sensor fault and some other misfire / ignition faults, then swapped the coils to see if the fault followed and it didn't so eventually condemned the timing. However that does not rule out the cam sensor, it only rules out the coil.

As for a garage testing with their oscilloscope, I'm a bit doubtful about that unless they are a VERY good garage. I've seen mechanics who can't even work a basic multi-meter to test voltage & resistance, never mind a proper scope to test a cam sensor.

Don't assume they have done the proper checks. Maybe they have, but maybe they haven't, so its worth double checking exactly what they did to come to the conclusion the timing chains were failing. It's A LOT of money to spend without being 100% sure it is definitely needed.

Thanks, i've just phoned them again and spoke about perhaps changing the sensors and going from there, however they recommended heavily against it "as they have a lot of experience with these engines" and something about seeing correlation between something camshaft improbable (Sorry i'm butchering what they said, but it made a lot of sense on the phone) using their diagnostic equipment. This is them:
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.lindleysautocentres.co.uk

They've certainly been great in the past with me and seem to be well trusted, i just very much hope they're wrong, they did offer to take apart just part of the engine so they can put on their specialist timing tools and get me a guaranteed "yes or no" as to whether it's the timing but they said it's a 5 hour job in itself and that they are positive it's the timing anyway.

To be honest i may have to simply rent a trailer and mothball the car for a while while i save up and pay in one go or think about scrapping it/selling what i can of it

 

[Mario]

So they have condemned the chains and tensioner because of this error (stolen from your report above).

Camshaft position sensor. Error Message : Signal improbable

All they did was read the diagnostic codes, nothing more. They have not tested the sensor and are advising against replacing it base on past experience.

Potentially costing you ££££ for parts and labour you MAY not need. Until it's properly tested or replaced the fault could still be the cam sensor. It may not be, but if it is, it will be a much cheaper fix.

I think this needs some proper diagnostic work done on it before you pay circa £5000 for something you may or may not need.

 

[GeForce>XI<]

So they have condemned the chains and tensioner because of this error (stolen from your report above).



All they did was read the diagnostic codes, nothing more. They have not tested the sensor and are advising against replacing it base on past experience.

Potentially costing you ££££ for parts and labour you MAY not need. Until it's properly tested or replaced the fault could still be the cam sensor. It may not be, but if it is, it will be a much cheaper fix.

I think this needs some proper diagnostic work done on it before you pay circa £5000 for something you may or may not need.

I agree I work in a garage and I always go withbtge cheapest option 1st.
The sensors are the 1st that would be done and then chain after.
Sensors are cheap so why not do your self a favour and try 2.
If they don't fix it then stick them on ebay or send them back I send parts back sometimes.


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[GeForce>XI<]

And another thing 49k and needs new chain ? I really do not think it's the chain even if they say after they change cam sensors.
I would cheak every possible option 1st.

Don't rush into things.

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[Squattro4]

Thanks alot guys, just for for clarity Mario, those diagnostics codes were from the AA who towed me to the mechanics in question, not the data of the actual mechanics, that said, you're right in that they've basically said "It's the chain because we've seen it before and our diagnostics are telling us so", but as far as i know it's very tricky to actually diagnose this without taking it apart etc so they could well be wrong as you guys mentioned.

What do you think i should do in that case? Are the sensors something i can change myself? The only other thing i was concerned about is spending money on several hours of them taking it apart to do from timing checks etc, only for them to be right and the bill being even larger!

 

[Mario]

I know the logs you posted above are from the AA but that the same error the garage will have seen.

Seeing as cam sensors are £35 each or there abouts I would try that first! They are held in with 1 bolt and an electrical connector, so I'm sure you can DIY, but you will need AA or the garage to clear the codes then scan again to see if it comes back.

Do this FIRST. Forget about everything else, just fit a new BOSCH or Genuine Audi sensor and test it. If it doesn't work, return it. You've lost nothing but time, at most you lose circa £70 for 2 sensors.

You were driving it before with this misfire, so driving it for another 1 hour with new cam sensors to test it won't make a difference. Just buy them, fit them and test them.

Then and only then will you be able to make an informed descision on what to do next. It may fix the issue and that will be the end of it, but you will never know if you don't try it. Like I said, it's only £70 or so on the line.

You don't need to pay them to check the timing before you do this, so the bill at the end if the chains do need done won't change.

Sensor looks like this....

 

[Squattro4]

I know the logs you posted above are from the AA but that the same error the garage will have seen.

Seeing as cam sensors are £35 each or there abouts I would try that first! They are held in with 1 bolt and an electrical connector, so I'm sure you can DIY, but you will need AA or the garage to clear the codes then scan again to see if it comes back.

Do this FIRST. Forget about everything else, just fit a new BOSCH or Genuine Audi sensor and test it. If it doesn't work, return it. You've lost nothing but time, at most you lose circa £70 for 2 sensors.

You were driving it before with this misfire, so driving it for another 1 hour with new cam sensors to test it won't make a difference. Just buy them, fit them and test them.

Then and only then will you be able to make an informed descision on what to do next. It may fix the issue and that will be the end of it, but you will never know if you don't try it. Like I said, it's only £70 or so on the line.

You don't need to pay them to check the timing before you do this, so the bill at the end if the chains do need done won't change.

Sensor looks like this....

I think this makes perfect sense, thanks a lot, i think i'll go with that then, order a couple and fit them myself asap just for peace of mind, i can always take it back to them if it doesn't work! I don't suppose you know how to find the part number? Googling "Cam sensor Audi A4 3.2" just returns reams and reams of vague eBay listings, erg.

 

[Mario]

Ask creweaudiparts on here for a quote with the part numbers. They are an official Audi dealer and when you get the part numbers you can have a look around and see what prices they go for elsewhere.

Also remember that some Skoda & VW dealers can supply the exact same parts for less money simply because they are not "Audi".

Create a parts request using the links at the top and creweaudiparts will get back to you, probably on Monday. Remember to ask them to confirm the part numbers so you can have a shop around.

Also, you never know, their quotes might be very competitive.

 

[GeForce>XI<]

What is the code and what did he use ? I use vag but others use snap on

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