that's exactly my point. you've clearly fallen on one side of the line, and there's nothing wrong with that. you've accepted the limitations of your choice and embraced the rewards. i've fallen on the other side, and i've done the same with my choice. my statement above directed at the thread's creator in regards to him not having the quattro he thought he had shouldn't be viewed as an outright disaster because it has its advantages. and in my opinion is the better of the two. you're entitled to disagree with that, and i welcome you to do so.
How can I tell if my A3 2.0TFSI is a quattro?
- Thread starter Minstadave
- Start date
that's exactly my point. you've clearly fallen on one side of the line, and there's nothing wrong with that. you've accepted the limitations of your choice and embraced the rewards. i've fallen on the other side, and i've done the same with my choice. my statement above directed at the thread's creator in regards to him not having the quattro he thought he had shouldn't be viewed as an outright disaster because it has its advantages. and in my opinion is the better of the two. you're entitled to disagree with that, and i welcome you to do so.
lol, what you like??? Ive fallen on neither side of any line. I also have accepted NO limitations in any way. I have had non quattro and Quattro and balancing EVERYTHING up just wouldnt go back...ever! Its good in all conditions as mentioned earlier. It has rewards as do the non quattro but tbh more rewards. Have you ever owned a quattro????? Or just speaking from owning non quattros? Just curious.
Oh and as limitations go, lol, I drive a 3.2 quattro, wow I must be mad eh! All that extra weight on such a thirsty engine.....im doomed lol
Enjoy you opinion, its neither good or bad, just the way you are like a dog with a bone.
Oh and as limitations go, lol, I drive a 3.2 quattro, wow I must be mad eh! All that extra weight on such a thirsty engine.....im doomed lol
Enjoy you opinion, its neither good or bad, just the way you are like a dog with a bone.
when i got my car recently i was struggling with the choice myself. as with anything in life there's more to it than scratches the surface - in an ideal world i'd have had both quattro and DSG, but that limited me to the 3.2 and whilst i really love the engine i don't think i could afford to run it. because i didn't have any intention of putting 300 - 400bhp into my car the quattro seemed unnecessary and DSG seemed more important. whilst i'd never owned one i feel i'd driven them enough for long enough to make an informed choice.
me personally i feel that it's widely regarded by motoring journalists from Top Gear to Which? that the Golf GTI seems to be the pick of the litter when looking at the VAG range and that it was FWD didn't seem to play against it in a comparison test i read in PVW (i think?) a couple of years back where the Ed30 fought off the then-new S3 and Seat Leon Cupra. In fact they even went so far as to say the standard GTI V would have been the best if it was there at all.
and in regards to dog with a bone, i'm harmless really lol. if someone brings a point to the table i feel it's only fair i address it. it winds ppl up sometimes but that's never my intention. just got to me a bit that PaulAr was so dismissive of my views without really presenting a counter-argument. i don't feel it's a "fact" at all, tho i do value his input.
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akash_sky1
Registered User
Top Gear rarely base their reviews and judgements on a subjective basis though do they?
As far as FWD A3 vs haldex A3, the only advantage I can see the 2wd has is slighter better economy! Other then that- just a less fun and safe car all round.
PaulAr
S3 (8P)
PaulAr
S3 (8P)
Can I just get this right, Sub have you actually driven/owned a vag quattro car as yet for a period of time more than a dealer test drive?
beanoir
Large Member
i assume you mean objectivity rather than subjectivity. subjectivity is the reason Top Gear is as entertaining as it is, and i think subjectivity has an important role in your car choice anyway. otherwise we'd all drive Toyotas. they never break down. they're safe, unassuming and economical, cheap to run and insure etc etc etc. in any event Top Gear was a deliberate choice and that's why i used Which? as the two ends of the spectrum.
and yes there's fuel economy, but i'd imagine that unless you're booting it and the quattro is working to shift the power around the extra weight will actually make the handling worse. my experience is it doesn't make much of a difference on the road in a car with a standard map.
additionally, if getting from A to B as fast as possible is your aim, it has been said before that races are won or lost on the quality of a car's brakes. even in fast road driving, the extra weight would be a hindrance to braking performance. that's another negative. and would arguably affect safety although i disagree with you on that particular issue because you should never be driving outside the capabilities of yourself or your car, irresepective of the circumstances. therefore safety is a moot point.
haha if my life goes to plan and i go back to uni in a couple of years then it'll be at least half a decade before i get the chance to own another car and hence be able to comment on living life with a quattro car. by then the technology will have changed anyway, and this conversation will be redundant.
the only 2 cars i have my eye on in the semi distant future are the GTI VI and the A5 2.0T quattro, both of which (no offence) i'd have over the S3 in it's current iteration for various reasons aside from the drivetrain.
i've driven a few as dealer test drives. i've also had one as a courtesy car and one that i borrowed for a day. this includes a drive in a 56-plate S3 on a longer than average test drive (>30 mins) with a salesman in the car thru some backroads between Birmingham and Redditch. i did give it a proper boot full in that time tho because i was 19 and to date it was the fastest car i'd ever driven (my parents' big Mercs excepted). was dry at the time tho.
in regards to your comment about the A21 on your drive, whilst i wish to make no assumptions as to your driving ability (particularly as i've never seen you drive or even met you in person) i'd imagine that if you were put in a quattro'd A3 and an experienced motorsport driver were put in an otherwise equivalent A3 with FWD he'd still get around the corner at least as fast as you would. my counterargument would be that you'd be better off spending the extra money from fuel, road tax, insurance and extra purchase price on driving lessons that would allow you to utilise the available power in ANY car rather than relying on the technology.
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beanoir
Large Member
Drivetrain?? Whats the difference between the A5 and the S3 (Haldex aside) they both have 4WD, just that one is permanant and one is slightly more intelligent.
they're in no way comparable.
purists (or anoraks as i'd call them) think it's blasphemy that the Haldex system in the A3 is referred to as quattro as all because it's got nothing in common with the original Torsen quattro. i think that's a silly view personally because the A3's packaging allows it to have some of the advantages of permanent 4WD without having a penalty in terms of interior space.
my argument hinges around the fact that Haldex when it's not working gives the car a disadvantage in certain scenarios. because the Torsen quattro is always working, and always powering 4 wheels that doesn't apply. it's always doing something, so the penalty you pay in terms of weight, braking economy and whatever is an acceptable one in my view.
i'm not saying it doesn't have disadvantages, just that it's a better compromise and one i'd have no qualms in making. Haldex is more grey area for me.
purists (or anoraks as i'd call them) think it's blasphemy that the Haldex system in the A3 is referred to as quattro as all because it's got nothing in common with the original Torsen quattro. i think that's a silly view personally because the A3's packaging allows it to have some of the advantages of permanent 4WD without having a penalty in terms of interior space.
my argument hinges around the fact that Haldex when it's not working gives the car a disadvantage in certain scenarios. because the Torsen quattro is always working, and always powering 4 wheels that doesn't apply. it's always doing something, so the penalty you pay in terms of weight, braking economy and whatever is an acceptable one in my view.
i'm not saying it doesn't have disadvantages, just that it's a better compromise and one i'd have no qualms in making. Haldex is more grey area for me.
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Let me put this in a context you understand, your whole thesis atm is based on assumptions, so take your silver spoon out of your mouth mate, go live with a quattro for a long period of time & I dont mean a 30 minute spirited test drive at a dealer sunshine to thrash the fxck out of, after your fwd car, then come back & tell us it makes no difference at all, comprende, now stop talking like a freshmen out of Uni know it all & get some real world experience please.
& to add regarding the professional driver, how many real world drivers are professionals day to day in say rallye, F1, speedway whatever you'd like to refer to as, probably 99.99999999% of the worlds drivers arent that experienced & the roads of the world dont require that level of driver experience, including yourself it would appear, so lets put this into perspective cause for me, your talking out of your **** a hell of alot of late without any experience in most quarters.
When you have experience of both cars for a period that would show you the difference, then I'll happily converse, but to make assumptions without anything to backup from your own experiences is just crap.
Excuse my bluntness but more & more I read your posts, it comes across as though you've been reading it rather than doing it, there is a huge difference that hopefully you'll learn sooner rather than later.
i agree there's a difference between reading and doing, but what you're saying to me is that i should live with a system i've thus far seen no benefit in in order to see whether or not it has a benefit. i don't have the money to go out and buy a car just to see if it's any good. if i did i'd take you up on your suggestion.
i'm not shouting you down or being rude, so i'd appreciate if the same wasn't done to me. i'm happy to accept we have a difference of opinion, as i've stated on numerous ocassions. but it seems this won't be settled UNLESS i agree with you.
beanoir
Large Member
well they are comparable or there wouldn't be a thread comparing them would there?
Agreed Haldex is not TCD, but Quattro means 4, they are both 4WD systems, they both have a differential, it's just one has mechanical coupling, the other is viscous. "Anoraks" are people that are stuck in the past and can't move with the times. The "Anoraks" are not Audi, who incidently can put the Quattro badge to any system they please, they dont' give a monkey's about the "Anoraks", they care about the consumer, and the consumer has voted.
So technology moves on but that doesn't mean it's for the worse. Why drive 4 wheels all the time when you dont need to, Haldex is the ideal system for performance cars and hot hatches alike, and lets face it, if it was used on the "money's no object" Bugatti Veyron, soon to be used on the new Lamborghinis and probably the new Porsches in the future, it must be a pretty special system.
Agreed Haldex is not TCD, but Quattro means 4, they are both 4WD systems, they both have a differential, it's just one has mechanical coupling, the other is viscous. "Anoraks" are people that are stuck in the past and can't move with the times. The "Anoraks" are not Audi, who incidently can put the Quattro badge to any system they please, they dont' give a monkey's about the "Anoraks", they care about the consumer, and the consumer has voted.
So technology moves on but that doesn't mean it's for the worse. Why drive 4 wheels all the time when you dont need to, Haldex is the ideal system for performance cars and hot hatches alike, and lets face it, if it was used on the "money's no object" Bugatti Veyron, soon to be used on the new Lamborghinis and probably the new Porsches in the future, it must be a pretty special system.
using the Bugatti or Lambo is not a fair example because what you're saying is that they're mostly RWD and the fronts kick in when needed. that's totally different to saying that it's mainly FWD and the rear's kick in when needed.
besides, Lambos could be 1WD for all i care. they're gorgeous
I fear you've just contradicted yourself here? You say FWD is better because you don't need 4WD most of the time and with FWD you don't have to carry the extra weight of Haldex around and therefore get slightly better economy - but in the next breath you say you'd take Torsen (permanent 4WD) quattro without any qualms, even though it is powering all four wheels all the time even when not needed [by your own argument] for most of the time, weighs even more and gives even less economy.
I've tried but I can't follow your logic of saying Haldex is a waste of time but you'd have no qualms in having a Torsen quattro car. Surely, the Torsen is even further away from your preference for FWD than Haldex?
my point, not very clearly made i appreciate, is that because the new torsen already has a rear preference in the name of handling you're not waiting for the car to react to a change in grip and shuffle the power around. hence the weight penalty is more worthwhile.
also my argument is absolutely not that FWD is better than AWD, just that i don't think that Haldex necessarily provides a benefit over FWD in our humble hatchback. there are reasons to have it, which i give it credit for, but i'm happy without it and i don't think it's as necessary or deal breaking as ppl make out.
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FIRE UP THE QUATTRO!! Haldex is superb - Having owned dozens of Audi's, TT's, 3's, 4's, 6's, Coupes etc I would not go back to 2WD (esp non Audi RWD's if you need to use all year) I live out in the country and every day I drive over mud left by tractors etc. Having my daughter in the car I personally like to know I have as much control as possible, simple as that!
Get it wrong in the wet on a corner and I know the extra money spent on price and fuel was worth every penny and then some.
Get it wrong in the wet on a corner and I know the extra money spent on price and fuel was worth every penny and then some.
PaulAr
S3 (8P)
Wrong mate Sorry
"you're not waiting for the car to react to a change in grip and shuffle the power around"
There is no delay while power is `shuffled`, its instanteneous. Otherwise HALDEX doesnt work and you would be in a ditch before power was appropriately distributed.
But as you say fwd is just fine, so the fact that a HALDEX equipped car has its front wheels at the ready 100% of the time and following your logic then thats a good thing, No?
And yes TORSEN is at least as effective, its just that it has more of a tendancy to oversteer when provoked rather than understeer. And that for many is more fun.
"i don't think that Haldex necessarily provides a benefit over FWD in our humble hatchback"
How you can make such a flawed, ill informed, sweeping statement is beyond me.
If it was some random forum troll just spoiling for an argument then you would expect it.
But for an obviously intelligent guy who has made the effort to make his point and use this defend you position is plain daft.
4wd provides significantly more grip than fwd and becomes increasingly more effective the more power and torque the car develops. This is stonewall fact, and after the physics lesson earlier in the thread you know this right??
If the intention was to irritate the rest of us (and Im sure its not) then nice one, job done. Otherwise, please take on board what a bunch of old farts (who have spent FAR too much money on cars) are saying, and at least consider it as useful input.
Please dont dismiss fact and sound experience because it doesnt fit conveniently into the fictional notion that "4wd has no benefit in a hatchback" We are not taking about 1980s FIAT Pandas here
Your input and oprinion is valued and respected mate, but seriously, this has gone far enough. Rescue some credability and just trust us on this one.:thumbsup:
Think thats me done.
Cheers
Paul
beanoir
Large Member
I couldn't have put it better myself Paul...well maybe I wouldn't have mentioned Fiat Pandas but it works still 
akash_sky1
Registered User
Wrong mate Sorry
"i don't think that Haldex necessarily provides a benefit over FWD in our humble hatchback"
How you can make such a flawed, ill informed, sweeping statement is beyond me.
If it was some random forum troll just spoiling for an argument then you would expect it.
But for an obviously intelligent guy who has made the effort to make his point and use this defend you position is plain daft.
4wd provides significantly more grip than fwd and becomes increasingly more effective the more power and torque the car develops. This is stonewall fact, and after the physics lesson earlier in the thread you know this right??
If the intention was to irritate the rest of us (and Im sure its not) then nice one, job done. Otherwise, please take on board what a bunch of old farts (who have spent FAR too much money on cars) are saying, and at least consider it as useful input.
Please dont dismiss fact and sound experience because it doesnt fit conveniently into the fictional notion that "4wd has no benefit in a hatchback" We are not taking about 1980s FIAT Pandas here
Your input and oprinion is valued and respected mate, but seriously, this has gone far enough. Rescue some credability and just trust us on this one.:thumbsup:
Think thats me done.
Cheers
Paul
I think that part about Haldex not being needed in a 'humbe hatcback like ours' is complete nonsense, no validation for that comment at all. sorry! Agree with Paul
I couldn't have put it better myself Paul...well maybe I wouldn't have mentioned Fiat Pandas but it works still
I couldnt either except not the old farts bit lol! Im a younger one lol
Khufu
Registered User
okies, hey you all go, all you will need is a hacksaw for the drive shaft & your sorted ;-)
audi s3 back axle 2007 on eBay (end time 16-Oct-10 10:02:22 BST)
audi s3 back axle 2007 on eBay (end time 16-Oct-10 10:02:22 BST)
