Cannot rotate engine, hard lock / clunk at 80% rotation on crank.

[Stuart B]

Hi,

So I have had a thought about my issue regarding getting 0.95 lamfa even though the load is going past 200% and throttle plate is 100% and I have raised a similar thing before - PEDAL POSITION

for me to have such a poor enrichment at this means the car's desired torque is around 70% if I look at my mapping the pedal position of "half throttle" (which isn't really half throttle in a fly-by-wire it is 50-60% pedal position - I think the car decides the throttle position, load etc based on the entire map - not the pedal)

so I often drive using the throttle pedal and when the power comes in I wont carry on pressing down. This table shows a 60% pedal position sets the desired torque to about 70% which at 5500rpm is only 0.95 lamfa which is too lean.

I think this creates "desired torque %" which isn't necessarily "actual torque %" but the "desired torque %" is used as the driving attribute to determine lamfa rather than actual torque.

I have set this to try and compensate - but I think it is solved by pressing the pedal to 100%

there are.. "sort of" complaints about the use of "desired torque" on s4wiki

in all honesty after 35 years of trying to drive / ride efficiently by only just using the throttle - sometimes you need to press / twist the throttle 100% down/round to go fast, not half down/round to go fast(ish) and save a little fuel.

 

[Stuart B]

after moving the engine on its mounts and introducing some difficulty in engaging gears, superkarl pointed me to the forge shortshiter installation instructions, am I right in thinking I should only need to pull in the ring and let the cables relax themselves?

 

[Stuart B]

I assume this is a tooth retarded?

This error has only appeared once this week. If it was an incorrect correlation error how often would I expect it to appear? Only under certain conditions or immediately?

 

[<tuffty/>]

after moving the engine on its mounts and introducing some difficulty in engaging gears, superkarl pointed me to the forge shortshiter installation instructions, am I right in thinking I should only need to pull in the ring and let the cables relax themselves?

View attachment 173318

Proper way is to lock the gear lever and change tower before messing with cables

<tuffty/>

 

[<tuffty/>]

I assume this is a tooth retarded?

View attachment 173319

This error has only appeared once this week. If it was an incorrect correlation error how often would I expect it to appear? Only under certain conditions or immediately?

Tooth out... You can validate with exhaust cam sprocket timing mark and physical tdc to double check... Get it done dude

<tuffty/>

 

[<tuffty/>]

....and I think it pops up after a couple of starts from memory

<tuffty/>

 

[badger5]

I assume this is a tooth retarded?

View attachment 173319

This error has only appeared once this week. If it was an incorrect correlation error how often would I expect it to appear? Only under certain conditions or immediately?

yes. your pictures shows that

 

[badger5]

Hi,

So I have had a thought about my issue regarding getting 0.95 lamfa even though the load is going past 200% and throttle plate is 100% and I have raised a similar thing before - PEDAL POSITION

for me to have such a poor enrichment at this means the car's desired torque is around 70% if I look at my mapping the pedal position of "half throttle" (which isn't really half throttle in a fly-by-wire it is 50-60% pedal position - I think the car decides the throttle position, load etc based on the entire map - not the pedal)

so I often drive using the throttle pedal and when the power comes in I wont carry on pressing down. This table shows a 60% pedal position sets the desired torque to about 70% which at 5500rpm is only 0.95 lamfa which is too lean.

View attachment 173295

I think this creates "desired torque %" which isn't necessarily "actual torque %" but the "desired torque %" is used as the driving attribute to determine lamfa rather than actual torque.

I have set this to try and compensate - but I think it is solved by pressing the pedal to 100%

View attachment 173296


there are.. "sort of" complaints about the use of "desired torque" on s4wiki

View attachment 173297

in all honesty after 35 years of trying to drive / ride efficiently by only just using the throttle - sometimes you need to press / twist the throttle 100% down/round to go fast, not half down/round to go fast(ish) and save a little fuel.

presumes you are changing the correct lambda map..... you would'bt be the first to identify a map which looks just like lamfa yet is'nt

 

[Stuart B]

Proper way is to lock the gear lever and change tower before messing with cables

<tuffty/>

I'm not sure the movement is the cause of the notching, maybe near end of clutch life as seems much better with engine not running.

 

[Stuart B]

yes. your pictures shows that

Thanks I will get this shifted over tomorrow, I might try a soft g-clamp instead of the 5mm stud, although after shuffling the engine across a cm or so more space is available.

 

[Stuart B]

Well that's not as easy as I remember.!!!!

I didn't want to remove the mount to get the damper wound down and hop the belt round so I will probably photo my bruised hands tomorrow. (The S3 had a little more space so no need to touch the engine mounts)

Essentially, to advance the cam one tooth I needed to:-
1. Loosen the 4 main engine mount bolts to lever the engine over enough to remove the top cover.
2. Checked timing marks (this looked retarded one tooth)
3. Removed lower pulley, aux belt, cover.
4. This next part took nearly 2 hours of pain and frustration. I needed a 5mm stud with a washer and nut fitted blindly into the damper via the tensioner pulley fork. Once I managed to finally locate into the hole i could manage one rotation (3 twists) at a time before withdrawing my hand for a minute or so to screw the rod down enough. Then 8mm spanner doing about 1/4 of a turn on the nut to compress damper. As an idea of accessibility..

5. I marked the target tooth on the cam, and existing tooth on the crank. To make sure the belt is relocated.
6. Moved the belt onto the marked locations.

7. Rotated the crank a couple of times and checked TDC

8. Put everything back on, including pushing the engine all the way over to drivers side ( needs this to clear downpipe)

So a couple of things- the variance in revs in my short 20 mile drive seems to have rectified and the car feels 'cleaner' / more responsive.

Also after loosening / relaxing the gear cables the gear changes feel much better (although this might just be the weather as it was warm)

But..... with all these apparent positives I got some error codes, I vaguely remember a similar thing when I had to adjust the timing belt on the s3, both advance and ****** point reached? Is this maybe related to adaptions? It's weird as that appeared after driving 10 miles to the dump and then filling up with fuel?

There's a lot of fingers crossed if it needs doing again, hopefully my hands swelling with be okay for next weekend.

 

[tcg]

Good job mate...that gynaecology home study course came in handy after all.

 

[Stuart B]

well if they have "teeth" I am not surprised the doctors wear gloves.

#Teeth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teeth_(film)

 

[Stuart B]

So far no error light regarding timing but there is still time yet.
I am thinking about this boost issue, I can sort of reproduce it; prolonged boost (but not flat out) say in 5th where the load is quite high from 4 to about 5 then it sort of feels empty, maybe change down and roll / engine brake and it will be okay a bit. A few days ago and before I had the boost drop off I started getting a noise when boost is building that sounds like you are trying to make a machine gun sound by vibrating your tongue blowing over it, I feared it was a rubbing sound but it seems too slow as the turbine will be spinning a million miles an hour boosting. is it possible it is the reed vibrating in the N75? and could that essentially lead it to getting stuck open, closed or in the middle and venting directly to the tip, if it was venting to the actuator that is 15psi - unless jammed open? but then maybe changing down and engine braking resets the N75 back to closed or open whatever the correct term is for being in control by the MAP. I am not sure whether this is related to the 30% waste gate duty cycle causing it to operate whereby previously it might not have ever been controlled by that part of the map as I dont recall any previous logs going up to 94% wastegate duty it usually went to about 70 or 80%?

 

[<tuffty/>]

Run the engine in and worry about mapping later?... just a thought...

<tuffty/>

 

[Rainbird]

Run the engine in and worry about mapping later?... just a thought...

This isn't the place for your damn logic man!

 

[<tuffty/>]

This isn't the place for your damn logic man!

Soz...

Turn the boost up and redline every gear?

<tuffty/>

 

[Stuart B]

I have driven over 1000 miles 300+ with real oil.
I don't think this issue is a mapping thing, it seems more like a physical fault either with the turbo jamming, hot side, compressor wheel on compressor housing or actuator (remember this was assembled by me from 4 sources), n75, some weird leak which only occurs under pressure then rectified itself under vacuum (only had FMIC fitted for 3 days before issues in August) I haven't gone over 5500rpm so no red lines today tomorrow etc.

The first 500 or 600 miles didn't have this noise or behaviour, it started happening in the middle of driving and does all the time now, I think it does even if n75 disconnected electronically,

I have my Bosch 550 injectors, waiting for adapters. I think I will need to get a cat back exhaust and additional bracket fitted as this is just getting louder but I don't see any leaks from manifold or cat to downpipe.
Clearly, quite a long way from any official mapping.

 

[badger5]

So far no error light regarding timing but there is still time yet.
I am thinking about this boost issue, I can sort of reproduce it; prolonged boost (but not flat out) say in 5th where the load is quite high from 4 to about 5 then it sort of feels empty, maybe change down and roll / engine brake and it will be okay a bit. A few days ago and before I had the boost drop off I started getting a noise when boost is building that sounds like you are trying to make a machine gun sound by vibrating your tongue blowing over it, I feared it was a rubbing sound but it seems too slow as the turbine will be spinning a million miles an hour boosting. is it possible it is the reed vibrating in the N75? and could that essentially lead it to getting stuck open, closed or in the middle and venting directly to the tip, if it was venting to the actuator that is 15psi - unless jammed open? but then maybe changing down and engine braking resets the N75 back to closed or open whatever the correct term is for being in control by the MAP. I am not sure whether this is related to the 30% waste gate duty cycle causing it to operate whereby previously it might not have ever been controlled by that part of the map as I dont recall any previous logs going up to 94% wastegate duty it usually went to about 70 or 80%?

70-80% on a 1 bar actuator would be very high boost tho, close to 30psi on spool... so clip its wings on duty cycle, your logs showed 30% tvldmx cap still resulted in 1.4-1.5bar boost which is plenty high for your state of tune, and too high for the lack of additional fueling, as logs you posted show 0.95 actual still. get it mapped properly or be here in 12 months+ time still posting about all your issues..... unplug n75 is your safest bet until you have confidence in your build. imho

 

[Stuart B]

Any thoughts on the fast flutter sound I am getting Bill? I didn't get it for the 1st 500 odd miles after the build and never heard in my s3 or previously. I don't think it is a rotational sound but is directly related to the spool of the turbo. It always happens, and is the same frequency like a hammer drill sorry of pace, irrespective of revs etc.

I will try a different N75, to see if the current one is broken. It's weird its very common fault on the ttforum and rare to see on ASN even though they are the same engines.

 

[badger5]

if its a compressor flutter, surgy kinda deal it should stop if you reduce boost.. try that to confirm

 

[Stuart B]

Thanks for the advice Bill, now hopefully the timing is sorted i will try some safe experiments over the weekend to do some proper measurements.

 

[Stuart B]

Well my injector adapters have arrived and appear to fit?

Getting excited it'll be interesting to see if they work and if they do whether the ECU will work out what to do or not based entirely on existing sensors. If they don't work at all, it's going to be the cheap Chinese adapters. (1 dollar each instead of 12 dollars each) but I expect a map change will be required to use them properly, still an interesting experiment.

 

[Stuart B]

I changed the N75 and went for a brief 15 minute drive, this might seem premature and I will swap them back over to confirm, but the noise only happened a tiny bit towards the end of the drive. I wonder whether the spring clip from the charge pipe to the n75 is not good enough, so I will change that too. But this might sound weird but whenever I listened to normal radio (not DAB) 909 five live the clicking (sounded like an indicator pace click) has stopped, this has been happening for a couple of weeks, this is historically a bad earth but can a dodgy n75 connection cause this type of radio interference.? Hopefully it will stay away.

 

[badger5]

going from 380cc to 550cc will indeed require a few changes... its a ~40% increase in fueling
voltage dead times will need to change also.. (tvub)
size change (ktkte)
and usually sort the different linearity out also with (fkkvs) & logging trims

 

[Stuart B]

Thanks for the pointers Bill, as a side point, if I was get this mapped with a stock cat back would it need to be remapped if I get a 3inch cat back fitted? just considering juggling the order around a bit?

 

[Stuart B]

so I believe these are the apparent "ball park" settings for the injectors. I will need to research logging the fuel trims and FKVVS - Also I will make sure I have the Original Bosch 3bar FPR to - otherwise all these settings will be out.

TVUB Settings from Bosch Data Sheet

KRKTE

 

[badger5]

Thanks for the pointers Bill, as a side point, if I was get this mapped with a stock cat back would it need to be remapped if I get a 3inch cat back fitted? just considering juggling the order around a bit?

probably not, if cats are still present... boost control would likely change when reduced backpressure tho so watching for unwanted spikes would want to be checked

 

[Stuart B]

Sorry.. I mean the stock centre box and back box. Not the stock cats. I have my downpipe and sports cat (should probably be removed), which tapers to 2.75. I know from threads here that an s3 centre box and back box is limited to about 300bhp, I assume the TT Backbox is slightly better internally, but I was considering pushing the map infront of the new exhaust.

 

[Stuart B]

Thanks again for the pointers Bill.

Disconnected battery negative lead
Removed FPR
Pulled rail
Swapped over injectors
Replaced injector rail
Returned Bosch 3 bar FPR
Plugged injectors back in
Reconnected battery
Updated map
Started car
Connected VCDS and started to learn about long and short term fuel trims.

I have come indoors for a bit a laptop battery dead. Weird was measuring block 032 showed no data, block 33 was cycling between rich and lean - It interesting to me that a dipstick not fully seated is classed as unmetered air..



Will go for a calm drive around the block, I unhooked the wiring to the injectors as it feels a little tight, has anyone replaced the plastic wiring conduit for the injectors?

The retaining clamp for cylinder 1 original injector for some reason wasn't properly fitted, I doubt it effected it operationally but still I wonder if it's always been like that?

You can see the sliding clip is above the fuel rail in the bottom injector compared to the one above.

Will do some detailled logging later or tomorrow, assumming I don't break down going to the shops.

 

[badger5]

look at block 001 for adjustment live, 032 will adapt periodically only if no faults present however

 

[Stuart B]

Thanks Bill, I will have a look in the morning, I am going to have to be cautious tomorrow to try and get a couple of short runs to review - it's always unnerving if the car feels healthy

 

[Stuart B]

Wow, so this is encouraging, I suppose I should try and go over 5600RPM now and or maybe allow a little more boost?


3rd gear pull.

Lamfa Map

I know this doesn't mean much especially regarding the HP/TQ as it seems to be altered by the vehicle profile I this tool, but.... we all love graphs!

This is currently restricted to 30% WGDC which is maybe why the "actual boost" is zig-zagging at 19PSI.

I am going through my FKVVS Log file and trying to sort out the new settings. I am wondering whether it might be easier to set it to 1 through-out then use the log file and tool to create a new set from the predicted differences. my main concern was the AFR - as if that was miles out I am not sure what I would need to do? update the sizing of the injectors to maybe fool the engine into giving more fuel?

I think I might need to connect up an analogue boost gauge as I dont think there is another way of knowing the PSI if the MAP Sensor is maxed out?

​

 

[hydro s3]

This looks very interesting but something I know nothing about. Computers and me don't get on. Is this vag-com your using to do this? I was going to buy a genuine cable so I could read faults and hopefully if I read enough I can use it for logging but don't think I could ever do what your doing.
Will you do the final map yourself?
Been a good interesting build so far and you have did it in a pretty quick time.

 

[Stuart B]

I have a fake VAG-CAN cable which I have used for some of the VCDS non free items like measuring blocks.

But Mapping Tunerpro
Read/Write Map MPPS
logging Visual Me7Logger (NEFMOTO) <-- this is hit and miss on S3's and TT's never worked on my S3 worked perfectly on the TT
ECUPLOT (NEFMOTO)

And I just used FKKVS Fixer to re-calculate the fueling map <- never seen the tool before but it performs the difficult algorithms used to help set up the fuel linearization <-- whatever that is

The thing is I am a total amateur so can only do simple basic things and use some tools clever people who understand the science have written. because I dont really understand the science I have to try and treat the symptoms instead of the cause, as an example the map above? I can copy and paste those figures above but maybe a simple change somewhere else might improve those figures maybe the goal is for them to all be 1 but because I haven't sized the injectors correctly this map might try and correct my bad sizing etc.

I still need to see a professional, but as long as it is fun and safe I dont mind playing around. (to be honest I think my map will just be laughed at)

 

[<tuffty/>]

This looks very interesting but something I know nothing about

That's OK... Neither does Stuart lol

<tuffty/>

 

[Stuart B]

I really don't and I think I made that clear. Another reason to see a professional is I have never done a sustained run as I can't possibly trust what is going on - so for example the logs I have taken are just accelerate and change gear, pretty sure it would behave differently if I kept my foot down for 5 or 10 seconds. But if outs been to Bill i would expect it to be safe to do afterwards.

Just expensive day out innit.

 

[S3AMJ]

You’ve done pretty good Stuart, there’s Lots you’ve learnt from doing this yourself! I’m still non the wiser when it comes to the mapping side of things, fuelling, etc. When are you looking to book it in with the master?


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[Stuart B]

Well, as we all know the council tax and water rates have feb and march off for direct debit payments i was going to use that for April, will give me a chance for it to break down in those 4000 odd miles first and get the exhaust sorted too.

Although, I have warned my wife I might need it sorted sooner.

 

[S3AMJ]

Time will soon pass mate, we might have our cars ready around the same time then!


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