A3 vs S3

[imported_glen_jai]

Hi,
I've just got a question out of curiosity. Is a chipped A3, which "claims" to have the same power as an S3, actually as quick?
I sat in a friends chipped 1.8T once, and the power seems to come later. Does the S3 have more torque or is it all psychological?
The reason for my curiosity is why Audi decided to put a bigger turbo with dual intercoolers in an S3 when it could have got the same result using a k03 turbo with a single (or no) intercooler.

Views/Opinions?

Regards,

Glen

 

[Paul-RS6]

all recent turbo'd audi cars over 180 bhp have twin intercoolers.

and where the a3 tops out with just a remap, the S3 is only just standard... and not even started to be tuned..

S3 has more power torque standard, and is fully spooled up around the 2700, 2800 rpm mark.

 

[cybrey]

I would say that on the move the A3 FWD will be quicker as its delievering all the power through the two front wheels instead of splitting it between four. (But it obviously depends on who does the remap).

 

[nervus]

In power to weight etc a chipped A3T should be faster than a 225 S3 but in the real world i dont find this at all. they are very similar in straight line performance which doesn't stack up as A3 has a huge weight advantage

 

[dickys3]

[ QUOTE ]
glen said:
Hi,
I've just got a question out of curiosity. Is a chipped A3, which "claims" to have the same power as an S3, actually as quick?
I sat in a friends chipped 1.8T once, and the power seems to come later. Does the S3 have more torque or is it all psychological?
The reason for my curiosity is why Audi decided to put a bigger turbo with dual intercoolers in an S3 when it could have got the same result using a k03 turbo with a single (or no) intercooler.

Views/Opinions?

Regards,

Glen


[/ QUOTE ]

Glen, as Paul says the Chipped 1.8T will produce around 210 bhp, but a chipped S3 will produce approx 260 bhp.

Also remember that the S3 weighs more than the A3 2WD and will also lose more power through transmission (4WD).

Rich.

 

[imported_glen_jai]

Thanks for all your response. It's interesting what you say Nervus, because if the S3 weights more but does not lose out in the straights, I'm sort of lead to believe that the power is delivered differently.
How soon does the power come in on a chipped A3?
I know the power starts kicking in at around 2500 rpm on an S3....

 

[cybrey]

[ QUOTE ]
glen said:
How soon does the power come in on a chipped A3?


[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on the remap ...

 

[nervus]

Yeah the power delivery probably makes a big difference. My S3 come on boost alot more aggresively than my chipped golf used too and more so than a couple of TT's i've driven! Is this delibrate from audi do you think, given that TT are for girls.

.........runs and hides /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue_out.gif

 

[imported_glen_jai]

That's a chipped 1.8T golf you're talking about I take it Nervus
Same as an A3 yeh.
And a standard S3...?
That sounds about right for a TT, as I bought an S3 from a someone who use to have a TT, and told me the same thing. I think the TT must be heavier.

"...given that TT are for girls" - no comment.

 

[ErikA3t]

What about chipped A3 Turbo vs S3 vs new A3 3.2 quattro... with a rolling start! 4wd cheats.

 

[StephaneS]

depends on gearing but would say 3.2 then S3 then chipped A3 Turbo for a 5mph rolling start just because peak torque is in that order rpm wise ie:
3.2 @ 2500rpm
S3 between 3000rpm and 3500rpm
Chipped A3 same as S3 but less torque
more than 5mph and the S3 and even the A3 may be quicker than the 3.2 for the same reason
but the A3 wont keep up long unless your called RichA3Turbo /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[imported_glen_jai]

With or without corners...? (only kidding).

I hope this doesn't turn into a muddy debate between fellow A3 and S3 owners.

I was really more interested in the reason why Audi felt the need to use a different turbo/intercooler setup and stronger engine components when they could have achieved the same result from cranking the boost up on a cheaper k03.

 

[ErikA3t]

I think you only get S3 rivalling power out of the K03 if you use a remap designed for superunleaded. Using the K04 you probably get the quoted power using regular unleaded (is that 93 ron?) not premuim or super.

Maybe a reason?

 

[ErikA3t]

Out of interest, I thought a chipped A3 had more torque than an S3. APR quote about 240 ftlb I think.

 

[cybrey]

Because the manafactures of the K03/K04 put out safe operating levels at which they've tested for long periods. Audi then use these levels to map the ecu to use the turbo at probably under these values, leaving quite a bit of margin of saftey, thus giving the engine/turbo a good reliability record.

This is good for us cos they've left plenty of room to play with in the ECU remaps whilst still staying within 'safe' margins.

 

[imported_glen_jai]

[ QUOTE ]
ErikA3t said:
Out of interest, I thought a chipped A3 had more torque than an S3. APR quote about 240 ftlb I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bear in mind that the figures quoted from tuning manufacturers are often extremely optimistic, as they are trying to sell a product.
I think most tuning companies quote a good 20bhp above real figures. I remember reading an article in a magazine where someone took a 225 Leon CupraR in for a re-map, and the before reading gave 245bhp, but the after remap figure was around 270bhp.
I doubt the car would be 20 odd horses more than the manufacturers claim, so my conclusion is down to the discrepancy of the rolling road measurements. Any other thoughts anyone?

 

[Gambba]

A chipped A3T is likely to have more torque than a standard S3 so on the move is going to be obviously to the eye faster. I am confident in saying that my A3T will outrun a chipped S3 on the move and can keep up with an S8.

The weight and power loss is the key here and where the A3T triumphs, but if it aint rolling then you're likely to loose.

The above is based on my A3T with Oettinger chip, and have frequently had it against S3's, an A3TQ and an S8.....

On the subject of power delivery, yes you will see it differently with the S3 as it has a larger turbo so takes a bit longer to spool up to it's max, but still lag is not really an issue...especially when compared to Sabbs.

 

[imported_YOGi]

What mods have you got gambba and what do you estimate your bhp is?

YOGi

 

[imported_ashs3]

[ QUOTE ]
Gambba said:
I am confident in saying that my A3T will outrun a chipped S3

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you say this the weight difference?

I thought that a chipped S3 pushes 260bhp+ and around 280lbs/ft torque, what does yor chipped A3T have, 210 bhp and what torque?

Your 0-60 times quote 6.49 seconds and a "standard" S3 does it in 6.8?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Paul-RS6]

6.4 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Drill]

[ QUOTE ]
ashs3 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Gambba said:
I am confident in saying that my A3T will outrun a chipped S3

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you say this the weight difference?

I thought that a chipped S3 pushes 260bhp+ and around 280lbs/ft torque, what does yor chipped A3T have, 210 bhp and what torque?

Your 0-60 times quote 6.49 seconds and a "standard" S3 does it in 6.8?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not sure exactly WHY this is (Prolly weight and transmission loss), but he's right. (Although I'm pretty sure the chipped S3 in question would eventually pull away from him due to gearing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif)

Gambba's A3 will spank my 220hp TQ and can reel in said chipped S3. Although, his performance against Sven in his S8 was prolly due to Sven NOT wanting to leave the rest of us behind /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

 

[Gambba]

[ QUOTE ]
Drill said:
Although, his performance against Sven in his S8 was prolly due to Sven NOT wanting to leave the rest of us behind /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

At the top end there's no doubt about it the S3 has the edge, and the S8 spanks ***, but on a rolling start the old A3T can hold it's own in acceleration up to the 100-120 mph mark.......especially once I put a good turbo on.

Ask Sven about a drag race through a tunnel where we reached around 210 km/h before we had to slam on....although he was carrying the little lady as well.

On starights and in dry corners the A3T will prepared to give you a good run for your money but just don't laugh at me when it's wet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[Gambba]

[ QUOTE ]
ashs3 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Gambba said:
I am confident in saying that my A3T will outrun a chipped S3

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you say this the weight difference?

I thought that a chipped S3 pushes 260bhp+ and around 280lbs/ft torque, what does yor chipped A3T have, 210 bhp and what torque?

Your 0-60 times quote 6.49 seconds and a "standard" S3 does it in 6.8?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to get something clear here 260 is not bhp, but hp because the figure of 260 does not take into account the power loss thrugh the drivetrain. So when you look at the bhp of a chipped S3 and a chipped A3 then you would be surprissed at how close the actual power at the wheels is. Consider now the weight aspect...you can see why this is part of the deciding factor.

Off of the line a chipped S3 will take the A3T but once on the move the A3 will close the gap and probably start to leave the S3, with then once into 120mph+ speeds the S3 coming strong again.

Torque for my car is around 300Nm (Not that I've had it measured), but based on Oettingers figures.

Numerous mods, but none of them providing a massive gain over the mighty chip.

 

[nervus]

hmmm, My friends golf with a apr chip said to be at least 212bhp will not leave my S3 in any scenario, we've had some interesting goes at each other and i can leave him fro a standing start but from a rolling start its even, if anything i have the edge!

 

[imported_ashs3]

[ QUOTE ]
Gambba said:
[ QUOTE ]
ashs3 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Gambba said:
I am confident in saying that my A3T will outrun a chipped S3

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you say this the weight difference?

I thought that a chipped S3 pushes 260bhp+ and around 280lbs/ft torque, what does yor chipped A3T have, 210 bhp and what torque?

Your 0-60 times quote 6.49 seconds and a "standard" S3 does it in 6.8?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to get something clear here 260 is not bhp, but hp because the figure of 260 does not take into account the power loss thrugh the drivetrain. So when you look at the bhp of a chipped S3 and a chipped A3 then you would be surprissed at how close the actual power at the wheels is. Consider now the weight aspect...you can see why this is part of the deciding factor.

Off of the line a chipped S3 will take the A3T but once on the move the A3 will close the gap and probably start to leave the S3, with then once into 120mph+ speeds the S3 coming strong again.

Torque for my car is around 300Nm (Not that I've had it measured), but based on Oettingers figures.

Numerous mods, but none of them providing a massive gain over the mighty chip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so an S3 that has had all the mods your car has, as well as a better turbo would win then wouldn't it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Oettinger quote around 300ft/lbs plus for there S3 chip so that would make a difference over AMD's version.

 

[Drill]

Ash, dude, don't try to make sense of it, cause it doesn't make any /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif But I've SEEN it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Gambba's A3 pulled away from JayBee's chipped S3 and he couldn't catch him /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif And on the twisty bits (Because we were in Sven's way) he pulled away from the group(Fecker /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif ) And apparently, the "Limitless" stretch of Autobahn on the way home was quite an interesting drive as well /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Of course, it WAS dry /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

 

[imported_glen_jai]

Mmm... this is interesting. So it turns out that the A3 is a quicker (better?) car than the S3 from what I've read.

Although I'm not sure I can believe absolutely everything I'm seeing here, as it looks as if S3 owners are pro S3 and A3 owners are very pro A3.

The bigger question now is, why did Audi bother with Quattro on the S3 if a normal A3 handles better.... strange one?

 

[nervus]

I think driver skill has played a massive part in this. I havemn't driven an A3T but i cannot believe it handles better than an S3.

 

[imported_glen_jai]

I think on the road (or track), driver skill is a massive factor.
I've done numerous track days (on my bike), and I have found that the faster or better handling tackle was not nearly as important as the monkey in the saddle...

Not so much in a drag race, which is probably the most objective way to compare straight line performance.

As a result, in the biking world at least, there's less emphasis of who rides the faster bike, so much as who "rides" faster.
Of course we aren't talking about bikes here.
But I think with cars, I imagine that driving ability would certainly play a bigger part than an extra 30 or 40 bhp advantage would.

 

[imported_ashs3]

[ QUOTE ]
Drill said:
Ash, dude, don't try to make sense of it, cause it doesn't make any /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif But I've SEEN it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Gambba's A3 pulled away from JayBee's chipped S3 and he couldn't catch him /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif And on the twisty bits (Because we were in Sven's way) he pulled away from the group(Fecker /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif ) And apparently, the "Limitless" stretch of Autobahn on the way home was quite an interesting drive as well /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Of course, it WAS dry /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not trying to make sense of it, just want to know all the mods Gambba has done to his A3T and then work out if you added those same mods to an S3 and then set them against each other which one would win?

As to me it makes sense that with the same mods, chip/exhaust/DV etc that an S3 should win, as it was quicker to start off with when standard than a standard A3T?

 

[imported_YOGi]

Mwahahaha theres uproar within the ranks!!! I think a good old group thrash will sort this out!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue_out.gif

Whos on it???

YOGi

 

[imported_glen_jai]

Now that would be interesting....

 

[DavidR]

[ QUOTE ]
glen said:
Mmm... this is interesting. So it turns out that the A3 is a quicker (better?) car than the S3 from what I've read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hang on a minute here. I cannot fathom how the A3 is quicker visa ve better than the S3 based on the fact the 2 people here had a blat along a road one day!

A modified A3 1.8T (chip and suspension for the sake of argument) will have a similar straight line speed when compared to an otherwise standard S3. As for handling, this is where the subjectivity has come in. The S3 has a wider track and longer wheelbase compared to the FWD A3 conferring it better stability and more lateral grip, so on an average road (accounting for the extra S3 weight) the cars are theoretically similar. In the real world I could go faster in a then standard S3 compared with my then modifed A3 (AmD chip and Koni suspension). The reason I could go faster is because the car had more overall grip, especially out of corners, conferring an advantage on the straights.

[ QUOTE ]
glen said:The bigger question now is, why did Audi bother with Quattro on the S3 if a normal A3 handles better.... strange one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the A3 doesn't handle better.

The short answer to your initial question about turbos, quattro etc is that a standard S3 will be matched in terms of performance and handling approximately by a modified A3. The A3, however, is pretty much at the limit of performance (power) enhancement at this stage whereas the S3 is still a blank canvas for modifications. A chip upgrade and suspension package will make the S3 significantly better than the A3 (if, for example, you use lap times as an overall measure) Purely subjectively, you could argue a case for each I guess.

My S3 will spin up 4 wheels in the wet if provoked, despite it's quattro system. A front wheel drive car simple cannot deploy similar power as quickly as a 4WD car, despite what people will say about traction control and suchlike.

Overall the S3 with quattro makes for a more stable and ultimately quicker package, although I still argue the case for the FWD 1.8T, as out of the box, although slower, the lack of weight combined with the predominance of lift off oversteer made the car more entertaining.

 

[Drill]

Oh, question.... since the S3's K04 pushes more air, it suffers more from turbo lag, right? And also, doesn't it take longer to reach full boost? So the bigger turbo will produce more power, but later, right? Also, when shifting, you get turbo lag, right? So wouldn't the 6 speed be a detriment on a "Drag" type race? Or does the closer spacing offset this? I've had a number of Autobahn blasts with (presumably std) S3's and have noticed the "Pause" when they shift. This usually helps close the gap, but when we go all out, I can't keep up over 230-240 kph cause I've run out of gears /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Am I making any sense? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

 

[DavidR]

S3 6 speed gearing is much shorter than the amazingly long 5 speed in the A3 - this as good as negates the different power delivery - I think the only real loss is in the sprint to 60, requiring an extra shift in the S3 (unless the rev limiter has been moved, like mine /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

 

[DavidR]

There is no pause in progress when shifting from high rpm, as from 6500, an upchange brings the car back to about 4000rpm, where there is lots of torque and little lag.

 

[DavidR]

[ QUOTE ]
Drill said:Granted, the Driver IS a big part of the equation (And Gambba is DEFINATELY a "Type A" personality behind the wheel /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif) But a rolling start, full throttle blast left me falling behind, and Gambba outpacing the S3 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile_smoking.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I've said this before to you guys, and not being there I can't really comment on the exact situation, BUT, Gambbas A3 must be extraordinarily fast for a chipped a3 to keep up with a well sorted chipped S3. My example is that I had an AmD chipped A3 (196bhp, 220lb/ft) and upgraded to a then stock S4 (265bhp 300lb/ft). The S4 was massively faster than the A3 in any gear, at any speed on any road. A collegue at the time had a TT with APR remap (245bhp) and on the road there was very little difference between the S4 and TT, leading me to think that the chipped TT is still noticably faster than the A3 was (and the 1/4 mile time slips for each car proved the point 14.3 A3, 13.2 S4 and 13.6 S3 - same track, timing gear etc)

So either the Gambba A3 is uber rapid, or the compeition (S3) has a boost leak, dodgy MAF or a granny driving....

Mind you, real world differences are hard to measure.

I'll be at the ring hopefully next spring / summer - we should meet for a few laps in the name of research /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

 

[Drill]

But as soon as you let up on the throttle, the boost gets dumped back into the intake tract. The closed loop helps reduce lag, but doesn't get rid of it altogether. Don't you then have to spool back up to full boost? This is where boost requested and actual are furthest apart, isn't it?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I've "Played" with a few 210 S3's, and on their shift is almost always when I gain the most /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I always thought the extra lag associated with the K04 was part of the reason /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

 

[JayBeeS3]

[ QUOTE ]
David R said:
[ QUOTE ]
Drill said:Granted, the Driver IS a big part of the equation (And Gambba is DEFINATELY a "Type A" personality behind the wheel /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif) But a rolling start, full throttle blast left me falling behind, and Gambba outpacing the S3 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile_smoking.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I've said this before to you guys, and not being there I can't really comment on the exact situation, BUT, Gambbas A3 must be extraordinarily fast for a chipped a3 to keep up with a well sorted chipped S3. My example is that I had an AmD chipped A3 (196bhp, 220lb/ft) and upgraded to a then stock S4 (265bhp 300lb/ft). The S4 was massively faster than the A3 in any gear, at any speed on any road. A collegue at the time had a TT with APR remap (245bhp) and on the road there was very little difference between the S4 and TT, leading me to think that the chipped TT is still noticably faster than the A3 was (and the 1/4 mile time slips for each car proved the point 14.3 A3, 13.2 S4 and 13.6 S3 - same track, timing gear etc)

So either the Gambba A3 is uber rapid, or the compeition (S3) has a boost leak, dodgy MAF or a granny driving....

Mind you, real world differences are hard to measure.

I'll be at the ring hopefully next spring / summer - we should meet for a few laps in the name of research /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

well the granny would be me (thank you!).

I cant see what else you can do in a drag race on the autobahn other then just push the pedal to the metal.....

I was surpised to see Gammba's A3T pull away from me.

I have replaced recently my MAF because it was faulty. Perhaps when we were playing dragrace it also wasnt working properly........ I dunno.

I must say that when the road becomes twisty, it is very important how far the driver dares to go. I usually hold back a bit in corners because I dont really have the confidence in my tyres (Proxes T1-s) after a crash in the guardrail some time ago........

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif