Front Mount Or Not To Front Mount

Ess_Three said:
I struggle to understand how going from a single SMIC to a FMIC could 'make' 18BHP...unless the gain was measuring a hot, heatsoaked SMIC vs a cold, big FMIC.

...Lowering inlet charge temperatures will technically 'add' power...but you have to be honest with yourself...it doesn't really 'add' power...it just doesn't 'loose' it as the heat builds up.
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I made every effort to ensure the conditions were replicated (as best as possible) with every mod/dyno run, eg time of day, similar weather, same driving distance/driving temps, even same dyno operator. So it's fair to say that the SMIC was not heatsoaked in previous runs, rather, I would argue that it demonstrated the efficiency of the FMIC to 'add' power, either directly or indirectly, through lower charge temps. ..and the ECU responded by uncreasing boost by 3 psi, amongst other things.

I realise your focus is on the S3/KO4/twin ICs where the set up (and variables) are different, however to claim that a FMIC won't 'add' power is perplexing. When I had the SMIC, I never achieved anywhere near the power figures I did with the FMIC, irrespective of how cold/hot/heatsoaked the SMIC and FMIC were. It's the interaction the FMIC has with everything else that collectively works together create/produce more power. That's my point.

Happy to provide more details/results if interested.
 
NM3 said:
I made every effort to ensure the conditions were replicated (as best as possible) with every mod/dyno run, eg time of day, similar weather, same driving distance/driving temps, even same dyno operator. So it's fair to say that the SMIC was not heatsoaked in previous runs, rather, I would argue that it demonstrated the efficiency of the FMIC to 'add' power, either directly or indirectly, through lower charge temps. ..and the ECU responded by uncreasing boost by 3 psi, amongst other things.

I realise your focus is on the S3/KO4/twin ICs where the set up (and variables) are different, however to claim that a FMIC won't 'add' power is perplexing. When I had the SMIC, I never achieved anywhere near the power figures I did with the FMIC, irrespective of how cold/hot/heatsoaked the SMIC and FMIC were. It's the interaction the FMIC has with everything else that collectively works together create/produce more power. That's my point.

Happy to provide more details/results if interested.
Click to expand...


Here's a thought...
Boost is controled by the ECU. It takes it's pressure reading from a MAP sensor, which is in, or downstream of the IC. The boost is regulated (by the N75 valve amongst other things) based upon what is requested (the ECU map) and read (signal from the MAP sensor).
Changing an IC cannot affect boost...I cannot see how you can 'gain' 3psi by changing an IC.

Sounds like you had a boost leak before...and fitting an FMIC cured it.

Adding an IC *can* add top end power, as it stops the ECU from retarding the timing in response to additional heat.
It cannot 'add' ignition advance beyond the values stored in the ignition tables...nor can it add boost beyond what is stored as the requested boost value - uless your standard IC was collapsed/blocked previously and you simply weren't getting the basic boost requested.

So, you can get a gain over what you had, by allowing the ECU to fire the ignition based on the desired map in the ECU...not a retarded map for safety.
You can gain by adding boost...
But a FMIC cannot add boost...


Please explain?

An FMIC is, in it's simple form...a pipe.
Air goes in...air comes out.
It is incapable of compressing the air - adding boost.

So how can changing an IC give you a rise of 3psi, if things were working fine before?
It can't...

If you did get a gain of 3psi, it wasn't down to the IC.
There was another problem...and you can't say that 'fitting an FMIC gave you 3psi, so adding one will give you power'.
 
Ess_Three said:
If you did get a gain of 3psi, it wasn't down to the IC. There was another problem...and you can't say that 'fitting an FMIC gave you 3psi, so adding one will give you power'.
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I wouldn't attribute the 3psi to the FMIC alone, and as a general rule, FMICs actually drop psi slightly. Nor am I in complete disagreement with the technicalities you've outlined, just pointing out that FMICs contribute to additional power, despite the definition of power we use or how it is derived.

As outlined earlier, living in Northern Scotland resolves all those issues. In fact, I hear visitscotland is considering a new campaign "Scotland, ..leave your FMIC behind". :laugh:
 
i am reading this correctly..... how can they 'contribute'.... even a novice like me can see that.... perfect conditions would see optimal power from the car, so the heatsoak would make that optimal power drop off to what ever level.... the FMIC if i understand correctly will keep the air cooler allowing you to maintain optimal conditions for longer..... how the feck can that 'contribute' to power... this is simple logic... it helps your car maintain not increase!!!!!!
 
like i said PANTS!
i know on diesels a charge cooler can give a boost in torque but thats all.
i've only ever known an intercooler to give power gains on video games!
 
i've only ever known an intercooler to give power gains on video games!
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lol.. joker..
i know on diesels a charge cooler can give a boost in torque but thats all
Click to expand...

On that note is there an uprated charge cooler you can get for the s3 engines.. as ive heard water cooling is better.. ?
 
Shy19s said:
On that note is there an uprated charge cooler you can get for the s3 engines.. as ive heard water cooling is better.. ?
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Water cooling isn't 'better'...it has advantages...and disadvantages.

They can be smaller...but you need more gubbins to go with them, pump, radiator for the coolant etc
Also, Chargecoolers take longer to react to variations in the charge air...so they heat up slower...but once hot, cool down slower too.
 
NM3 said:
I wouldn't attribute the 3psi to the FMIC alone, and as a general rule, FMICs actually drop psi slightly. Nor am I in complete disagreement with the technicalities you've outlined, just pointing out that FMICs contribute to additional power, despite the definition of power we use or how it is derived.

As outlined earlier, living in Northern Scotland resolves all those issues. In fact, I hear visitscotland is considering a new campaign "Scotland, ..leave your FMIC behind". :laugh:
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scatology -
1. a preoccupation with obscenity (especially that dealing with excrement or excretory functions)
2. the chemical analysis of excrement

much like your post....:aggressive:
 
Picture055.jpg


This was on the car when i bought it. Its from a company called T-carbon and was custom fabricated off a TT. Works well in my opinion. Still got the original reciept for it (£700 fitted) Dont no why they didnt just fit forge for that price!!! Deffinately maintains power for longer after bein on boost.
 
this has been one of the better threads we have had lately. Lots of good technical stuff (that I don't really understand, but it's making things clearer for me), people putting their opinions across in an articulate manner, good use of the language....let's hope it keeps up the high standard.
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Well i can soon change that!! LOL only joking!!!

I started the thread because I thought it would be a good idea to ask peoples opinions as Ive often thought about fitting a front mount so i could crank the boost up further. Ive also looked into sourcing the bits myself but it doesnt seem to work out any cheaper!!
 
1animal1 said:
scatology -
1. a preoccupation with obscenity (especially that dealing with excrement or excretory functions)
2. the chemical analysis of excrement
much like your post....:aggressive:
Click to expand...

I said "idiom" not idiot, in case that's what you thought I said. Although having read what you just posted above, a "t" would have been far more appropriate.
 
1animal1 said:
scatology -
1. a preoccupation with obscenity (especially that dealing with excrement or excretory functions)
2. the chemical analysis of excrement

much like your post....:aggressive:
Click to expand...

I've seen logical, well thought out, knowledgeable posts from a few parties here, all of which I could also add knoweldge too. Several things both the main contributers have posted could be demonstrated as not 100% correct in this particular scenario, but the thing is, you have NO right to be telling ANYONE who has posted here they are tlaking rubbish as you havent the faintest idea yourself.

You should keep out of it until you know more.
 
i know on diesels a charge cooler can give a boost in torque but thats all.
Click to expand...

From my understanding, an air to air intercooler relies on air passing throught the fins to lower the inlet temp. this is great if the air flow to the intercooler is uninterupted but when partially blocked or with no air passing through it is about as much use as a chocolate tea pot! A charge cooler doesnt rely on air passing through it but incases the inlet air within a water jacket which is meant to keep it at a more uniform temp, I used to have one on my Cossie and it worked better than a very large RS500 intercooler
 
scoobyra said:
From my understanding, an air to air intercooler relies on air passing throught the fins to lower the inlet temp. this is great if the air flow to the intercooler is uninterupted but when partially blocked or with no air passing through it is about as much use as a chocolate tea pot! A charge cooler doesnt rely on air passing through it but incases the inlet air within a water jacket which is meant to keep it at a more uniform temp, I used to have one on my Cossie and it worked better than a very large RS500 intercooler
Click to expand...

Charge coolers work well...but have drawbacks...not only do you have to find room for the coolant pump and external radiator...but they are slow to react to changes in temperature.
Closed loop temperature systems in general are slow reacting loops...and when you add heat to the charge air by running very high boost, this is passed to the cooling medium of the charge cooler...which requires to be passed through the pump, through the radiator and back before you see any drop in the average charge cooler temperature...a decent FMIC is much faster in taking the heat out of the inlet charge and keeping the cooling core temperature down - assuming you have sufficient air flowing accross the IC.

Swings and roundabouts again...
 
Dave_Bayern said:
I've seen logical, well thought out, knowledgeable posts from a few parties here, all of which I could also add knoweldge too. Several things both the main contributers have posted could be demonstrated as not 100% correct in this particular scenario,
Click to expand...

Feel free to add comments Dave...
 
Sounds good.. FMIC looks better too, even tho im going for a stealth look. Thanks for giving me the insite on charge coolers.

Shy
 
grathies said:
Classic!
Click to expand...

I simply questioned the statement that FMICs added no power, and presented another way of looking at whether they do or don't. In my own experience - they certainly do, and I thought I'd share that with you guys on here. When you're shelling out loads for a FMIC, you want to make an informed choice. I got 18 bhp when I bolted one on, no leaks, everything 100% prior to fitting FMIC. That's handy for you all to know.

This sought of dumb-**** personal slating (and endorsements above) happens on forums. What makes this forum unique is that the moderators actually permit it, and don't clamp down on it, or warn those who do it that it's in breach of the rules.
 
NM3 said:
What makes this forum unique is that the moderators actually permit it, and don't clamp down on it, or warn those who do it that it's in breach of the rules.
Click to expand...

Yup, I noticed that too. Doesnt happen anywhere else I'm a member, that said the members are not so blinkered on other forums either.
 
Moderator note:


If either of you two aren't happy with posts...report them.
There is even a dedicated button especially for you!

If threads go the way of bantar, and nobody feels geniunely aggrieved, why moderate them?
To show that as a moderator, you have all that power under your mouse?
Wow!
What's the point...

Get on with life...

If however, you feel the comments are insulting, or offending...bring it to the attention of one of the moderators...because heaven knows, sometimes the Force isn't strong...or the crystal ball may have stopped working.
I can assure you, if you report a post, we (the moderators) will look into it...if its not breaking rules, it'll stay.
If it is...it'll be dealt with...same with the person who breaks the rules.


This forum lets things go that others don't...that's what makes it different to other forums....if you don't like the way it's run...feel free to spend time elsewhere.


But remember this:
Post crap...and other users have the right to make comments about it.
That'll not change.
 
Ess_Three said:
Moderator note:


If either of you two aren't happy with posts...report them.
There is even a dedicated button especially for you!

If threads go the way of bantar, and nobody feels geniunely aggrieved, why moderate them?
To show that as a moderator, you have all that power under your mouse?
Wow!
What's the point...

Get on with life...

If however, you feel the comments are insulting, or offending...bring it to the attention of one of the moderators...because heaven knows, sometimes the Force isn't strong...or the crystal ball may have stopped working.
I can assure you, if you report a post, we (the moderators) will look into it...if its not breaking rules, it'll stay.
If it is...it'll be dealt with...same with the person who breaks the rules.


This forum lets things go that others don't...that's what makes it different to other forums....if you don't like the way it's run...feel free to spend time elsewhere.


But remember this:
Post crap...and other users have the right to make comments about it.
That'll not change.
Click to expand...
Fair point, you post some decent batches of crap yourself.
 
It seems that some people take some comments far too seriously...not discounting myself....however.... i do not get wound up by posts where someone disagrees with me.... the best thing to do? if you cant beat them, join them. So what if the post isn't always technically orientated.... this is a forum, a place to come to learn and share experiences...to help each other and to have a laugh 'LIFE IS TOO SHORT'....the whingers on here need to get a grip...

I now await a post on retro fitting colostomy bags to the Audi's seats and how to fit 30" wheels to enhance the ride height...making entrance and exit more leanient on the 'old' back......wouldnt suprise me

My reply to NM3 was relevant..... it carried on the momentum of his post, although that said NM, i did realise that you did NOT mean 'idiot', although your following comment was something that i took to heart...infact i have a mind to report you for a verbal battering that i feel could leave me scared for good period of time. Hence my late reply.... i just couldnt muster up a worthy answer:applaus:

Right...can we please get back to the post..... sorry scoobs:tapedshut:
 
i'm going to make my own kit after watching that forge one on ebay go for £620.
will let you know how things go and if i was to get the kit to work, would anyone be interested in one? by what i've worked out some fabrication will be needed.
 
sounds good Sits..... keep us posted mate.... may look at one myself depending on cost... the fabrication element makes it uninteresting for me as hate the measuring and checking that accompanies
 
Ess_Three said:
Well fella, you would know...
your 7 posts of utter brilliance amaze us all with your no-lag, 350 BHP, 170 MPH S3. :applaus:

Keep up the constructive contribution...people like you are always welcome on here.
Click to expand...

Lol very good :):applaus:
 
Ess_Three said:
Well fella, you would know...
your 7 posts of utter brilliance amaze us all with your no-lag, 350 BHP, 170 MPH S3. :applaus:

Keep up the constructive contribution...people like you are always welcome on here.
Click to expand...

Why thank you! its always great to know that your comments are appreciated.

Who exactly said that a 350bhp S3 would have no-lag? I said the lag "wasn't too bad", there is a difference...foool

Oh and congratulations on your many, many posts what an achievement! :applaus:
 
rhubarb4 said:
Lol very good :):applaus:
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No hard feelings - and humour makes the forums more fun, lively and engaging. Maybe I felt (as others did) that using the word "contribute" wasn't grounds to have my comments dismissed outright and then be subject to ridicule. When it's deserved, fair enough - and others can decide whether or not my comments were misinformed nonsense. However, unless there's 'some' boundaries on conduct, these forums quickly degenerate into unpleasant, hostile and defensive banter. When others applaud this sort of beahaviour (see above) it compounds the situation and runs out of control.

I really like this forum and would go as far as to say that it's the best A3/S3 forum in the world. There's a lot of good will, support and I've learnt a lot. I waited 2 mths before I made my first comment, and was quickly kicked straight in the guts the moment I did :)
 
smoggie85 said:
Why thank you! its always great to know that your comments are appreciated.

Who exactly said that a 350bhp S3 would have no-lag? I said the lag "wasn't too bad", there is a difference...foool

Oh and congratulations on your many, many posts what an achievement! :applaus:
Click to expand...

You know, if you actualy engaged your brain before letting your mouth sprout *****...you might learn something.
In your 7 months of membership and impressive post count of 7, you want to have a go at me?
Not clever...

I suggest you re-read the rules.
I'm normally very tolerant and let most things go...but in this case, I'll make a special exception, just for you.
Good bye.
 
NM3 said:
No hard feelings - and humour makes the forums more fun, lively and engaging. Maybe I felt (as others did) that using the word "contribute" wasn't grounds to have my comments dismissed outright and then be subject to ridicule. When it's deserved, fair enough - and others can decide whether or not my comments were misinformed nonsense. However, unless there's 'some' boundaries on conduct, these forums quickly degenerate into unpleasant, hostile and defensive banter. When others applaud this sort of beahaviour (see above) it compounds the situation and runs out of control.
Click to expand...

I appreciate what you are saying...and will reiterate:
If YOU feel things have crossed the line...please report the post, and something will be done.

We try to remain relaxed on here...up to a point.

The way 'we' try to look at things is like this:
Everyone is entitled to an opinion...if you post it, you are likely to have a counter opinion posted.
If you produce a good example / evidence of a power gain for example...it's perfectly reasonable for other users to post opposing views and argue to the opposite.
If however, a user chooses to join a thread with a purpose of 'noising up' a member, and doesn't back their comments up with any form of reasoning (just out to cause friction) and chooses to carry on with their games...they'll be warned, then banned.

It's a fine line between allowing bantar...and letting it go (smileys, craic between users who obviously know each other etc) and filtering out comment deliberately made to get a reaction and cause friction.
We don't always get it right...so report posts if things cross the line in your view.


I really like this forum and would go as far as to say that it's the best A3/S3 forum in the world. There's a lot of good will, support and I've learnt a lot.
Click to expand...

Good to hear!


I waited 2 mths before I made my first comment, and was quickly kicked straight in the guts the moment I did :)
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum! :laugh:
 
Did you miss a gear or something. Which Porshe 911 have you got, I would love to own one, awsome cars my favorite to be honest well :laugh:911 Turbo.
 
No, I didn't miss a gear...Steve's TT is just faster!
GTI International 2 years ago...my 996 C4S against Steves TT (415 BHP on NO2) and beaten fair and square. He had a half second on me off the line (0-60)...and kept it to the end of the 1/4.

Some of the lads on the TT forum thought it was a GT3 he was against...but it wasn't.
I'm not sure it would have made much difference...maybe a turbo would have given him a better go.
 
Ess_Three said:
..maybe a turbo would have given him a better go.
Click to expand...

You bet it would have! ...911 turbos are so damn quick. I've tracked my car with GT3s and had fun with them (within reason), but 911 turbos just blast off into the stratosphere once 3rd gear is planted to the floor. Simply awesome. ...and if you chip them (APR), insanely quick - 541 bhp/638lb-ft, just with software!!
 
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