Had the back-end of the S3 go out - anyone else?

[azibux1]

Hi all

As above. Was pulling out somewhat fast out of a junction, onto a cold, possibly damp road. Front wheels slipped a bit then the back went a bit wavy. Not too much but definitely noticeable.

I wouldn't have expected it, but now I know for next time. Anyone else had this?

I imagine it shifted power to the rear wheels as the front slipped and effectively became RWD so the back went out a bit?

 

[S32B]

I pulled out of a junction the other night turning right and had to boot it a bit, the back snapped out but snapped in a grippy way! Never ever had any wheels slip though!

 

[pburv]

Up until a few days ago I always got front wheel spin coming out of junctions.I thought it was a characteristic of the S3?
I have had the haldex pump replaced and don't suffer from it anymore.

 

[GSB]

These ****** Quattro myths are the bane of this forum. To clarify, it's "always" four wheel drive. It's not a mk1 Haldex reactive system sensing the loss of front traction and suddenly diverting all the power to the rear. It may increase torque transmission to the rear, but it is additive, not swapping.

In dynamic mode it's much faster to increase torque transmission to the rear than in comfort, and the latest revision of controller is faster and a little more brutal than the PFL. (Might explain a bit @pburv?) in dynamic mode, it can and will get wayward at the rear when provoked, especially in tight turns where the lack of centre diff and differing turning radii of front and rear axles means you are very slightly overspeeding the rear wheels.

Quattro will do what it can, but you're asking the impossible if you want to dump 380NM from a near standstill through summer tyres in cold temperatures without some loss of traction. They can't do it. Either fit winter tyres,or lower your expectations and go a little lighter on the loud pedal.

No matter what magical properties four wheel drive offers, it's still limited by the adhesive qualities of four hand size bits of rubber trying to hang on to cold wet tarmac.

 

[Gordo77]

Is there not something in the small print about these systems not able to overcome the laws of physics... i.e. how much physical grip there actually is between the tyres and road.

 

[pburv]

These ****** Quattro myths are the bane of this forum. To clarify, it's "always" four wheel drive. It's not a mk1 Haldex reactive system sensing the loss of front traction and suddenly diverting all the power to the rear. It may increase torque transmission to the rear, but it is additive, not swapping.

In dynamic mode it's much faster to increase torque transmission to the rear than in comfort, and the latest revision of controller is faster and a little more brutal than the PFL. (Might explain a bit @pburv?) in dynamic mode, it can and will get wayward at the rear when provoked, especially in tight turns where the lack of centre diff and differing turning radii of front and rear axles means you are very slightly overspeeding the rear wheels.

Quattro will do what it can, but you're asking the impossible if you want to dump 380NM from a near standstill through summer tyres in cold temperatures without some loss of traction. They can't do it. Either fit winter tyres,or lower your expectations and go a little lighter on the loud pedal.

No matter what magical properties four wheel drive offers, it's still limited by the adhesive qualities of four hand size bits of rubber trying to hang on to cold wet tarmac.

Pretty much what the techie told me the facelift haldex pumps are much better at doing their job than the older rev. pump.
It was one of the reasons I had to wait a while for it to be done.They had to make sure it was the newer pump that was ordered and not just an older rev. from the parts shelf..

 

[GSB]

Is there not something in the small print about these systems not able to overcome the laws of physics... i.e. how much physical grip there actually is between the tyres and road.

Do you know, I think there might be...

 

[azibux1]

Thanks for the detailed response Grant

Not sure if it is worth asking for the FL haldex pump to be fitted or not? As of course I understand that one situation was quite demanding on the tyres

Hmmm

 

[pburv]

Thanks for the detailed response Grant

Not sure if it is worth asking for the FL haldex pump to be fitted or not? As of course I understand that one situation was quite demanding on the tyres

Hmmm

The reason I had my pump replaced was because the traction control was kicking in on the straights as well as coming out of junctions. So if you make a complaint don't forget to mention this.Audi UK recommend to replace pump and oil if customer experience intermittent wheel spin.
Here is the email I had of the dealer...

''Good morning Paul,



Fault in system regarding Haldex clutch pump faulty (sporadic fault)

Audi technical information recommend changing the Haldex pump and replacing the oil with new – under warranty.



Kind Regards,



Jasmine Woolley | Accredited Service Advisor | North Wales Audi


T: 01492 585 777 | Ext: 2206 www.sytner.co.uk |Email: jasminewoolley@sytner.co.uk

Conwy Road, Llandudno Junction, North Wales, LL31 9AY ''
Hope this helps.

 

[AudiNutta]

The reason I had my pump replaced was because the traction control was kicking in on the straights as well as coming out of junctions. So if you make a complaint don't forget to mention this.Audi UK recommend to replace pump and oil if customer experience intermittent wheel spin.
Here is the email I had of the dealer...

''Good morning Paul,



Fault in system regarding Haldex clutch pump faulty (sporadic fault)

Audi technical information recommend changing the Haldex pump and replacing the oil with new – under warranty.



Kind Regards,



Jasmine Woolley | Accredited Service Advisor | North Wales Audi


T: 01492 585 777 | Ext: 2206 www.sytner.co.uk |Email: jasminewoolley@sytner.co.uk

Conwy Road, Llandudno Junction, North Wales, LL31 9AY ''
Hope this helps.

Hm, interesting. Because like most, now in the FL S3 I am getting so much interruption with the TC. It is tiring, I can't drive quickly around town unless with the TC in Sport, or it drops all power when you want it most. Even with the TC off, there is no slippage whatsoever. Not sure whether to bring this up next time I am in Audi, but it's one of those things I don't want their technician to try and replicate because it will involve them, driving like a bunch of t***s with my authority to get it to show. Mine kicks in on the straights in 2.d & 3rd gear mostly, only low speeds say 20-30mph as the turbo starts to spool, then the TC cuts it and its a good 3-4 second delay before you can get any decent pace on.

 

[azibux1]

I think I'll leave it to be honest for now as I don't experience it kicking in on straights, and don't experience wheelspin on straights even in the wet.

So don't really want them messing with stuff that is probably working fine. Was probably just down to the road conditions it seems.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[simonali]

These ****** Quattro myths are the bane of this forum. To clarify, it's "always" four wheel drive.

Audi and Haldex seem to continually perpetuate the myth that these cars can somehow magically become RWD when it's simply not true, but the same old line about delivering 100% of available power to the rear is still trotted out in every article...

 

[GSB]

Audi and Haldex seem to continually perpetuate the myth that these cars can somehow magically become RWD when it's simply not true, but the same old line about delivering 100% of available power to the rear is still trotted out in every article...

That's because it can send 100% of available power to the rear. They're not exactly lying, they're just not telling you that in order to do that you need to have the front wheels off of the floor. Since the front wheels have no ground to do work on, they use no power, therefore 100% of available power must be going to the rear because there's no centre diff.

All types of four wheel drive systems suffer from these misunderstandings of capabilities. The truth is rather more nuanced. Take the legendary mud plugging Land Rover Defender, there's no more capable 4x4 around, yet you can render it useless by getting it "cross-axled" and losing grip on just two of the wheels. 4x4 or not, diff lock engaged or not, it'll go nowhere because the power is transmitted along the path of least resistance, and if you have two wheels that are unloaded, they'll just spin away the power.

 

[pburv]

Hm, interesting. Because like most, now in the FL S3 I am getting so much interruption with the TC. It is tiring, I can't drive quickly around town unless with the TC in Sport, or it drops all power when you want it most. Even with the TC off, there is no slippage whatsoever. Not sure whether to bring this up next time I am in Audi, but it's one of those things I don't want their technician to try and replicate because it will involve them, driving like a bunch of t***s with my authority to get it to show. Mine kicks in on the straights in 2.d & 3rd gear mostly, only low speeds say 20-30mph as the turbo starts to spool, then the TC cuts it and its a good 3-4 second delay before you can get any decent pace on.

I was told at the dealers any car from the 'S' or 'R' range only get tested by the Master techie.
I actually made a point in telling them I have never done 'launch control' and because I'm a trusting soul.. I took a picture of the mileage and fuel computer with the average mpg.....Just to be on the safe side you understand...lol
If you think you have a problem then mention it to them it doesn't cost anything to find out..

 

[azibux1]

So GSB as you seem quite knowledgeable on the topic, can you confirm my understanding please?

It is a mix of sending power to the front and back wheels at all times, with a front bias? And power / torque is shifted more towards a rear bias when needed?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[simonali]

That's because it can send 100% of available power to the rear. They're not exactly lying, they're just not telling you that in order to do that you need to have the front wheels off of the floor. Since the front wheels have no ground to do work on, they use no power, therefore 100% of available power must be going to the rear because there's no centre diff.

Well I look at it differently. Power is being sent to the front wheels at all times. Regardless of whether they're on a zero grip surface or lifted off the ground they'll still be spinning. 100% of the car's usable power is being transmitted to the ground by the rear wheels, yes, but that doesn't make the car truly RWD. The only way that could happen is if the front driveshafts were disengaged from the transmission and I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen. It's a case of semantics and I think Audi's play on the wording is highly dubious.

 

[GSB]

Well I look at it differently. Power is being sent to the front wheels at all times. Regardless of whether they're on a zero grip surface or lifted off the ground they'll still be spinning. 100% of the car's usable power is being transmitted to the ground by the rear wheels, yes, but that doesn't make the car truly RWD. The only way that could happen is if the front driveshafts were disengaged from the transmission and I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen. It's a case of semantics and I think Audi's play on the wording is highly dubious.

Oh, there's no doubt about the dubious nature of advertising. The "occasionally available in three wheel drive" and the "driving up a ski jump" adverts were very misleading.

Your take on power transmission is accurate, but considering the relatively tiny amount of power required to spin a pair of 18" rims in free air, it's only adding to the confusion. Consider it wasted power, since it's doing nothing useful. You're quite right regarding the driveshafts though, the front driveshafts are never ever disengaged from the transmission. This is a very front biased car.

So GSB as you seem quite knowledgeable on the topic, can you confirm my understanding please?

It is a mix of sending power to the front and back wheels at all times, with a front bias? And power / torque is shifted more towards a rear bias when needed?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

It sends power to the front all the time. This is essentially a front drive car with a power take off to the rear axle that can be turned off, on, or anywhere in between. Most of the time it's partially engaged since full locking will cause "wind up", a very destructive phenomenon also seen in land rovers if you leave the diff lock engaged. A bit of slip between front and rear is good. When you give it the beans though, it will increase the amount of torque the rear axle can transmit. When you're cruising, it'll reduce the torque transmission to save fuel.

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Here is another confusion. Audi Canada's recommended service intervals on an S3 do not allow for, or suggest tyre rotation....Reason, "It is 4 wheel drive vehicle Sir"

 

[azibux1]

Thanks Grant, makes perfect sense!

 

[AudiNutta]

I was told at the dealers any car from the 'S' or 'R' range only get tested by the Master techie.
I actually made a point in telling them I have never done 'launch control' and because I'm a trusting soul.. I took a picture of the mileage and fuel computer with the average mpg.....Just to be on the safe side you understand...lol
If you think you have a problem then mention it to them it doesn't cost anything to find out..

RS models should be worked on by an 'RS Technician', so to speak. It's a case of whether they have one employed at the time from what I can understand, but otherwise I'd like to think it would be a master tech and not the apprentice (but then again I'm an apprentice, in most areas I probably work to a higher standard haha, so not to judge).

I normally plan to record the mileage, but always forget. I now have a dashcam, which is nice to watch the test drive. BUT, when my car went in for the tracker obviously he had been working on the electrics and appeared to have unplugged the dashcam. A few test drives later, plugged it back in.. I were gutted, the car was barely ran in, just holding onto hope he was half decent. It's a given, if I were in their position no joyride is worth breaking the element of trust, I'm sure they're not short of test drives if they want one.

Audi are fed up of me, a few bad luck situations arose with my car getting damaged that landed me getting into an argument, a one sided shouting match (hands have shook since, but never should have happened).. what I find, being 19.. people take it for granted, it didn't go down well with my parents anyway who no longer use that dealership, they have lost 3 cars.. but I've remained loyal. I also complained about rattles in the S3, the same master tech who has been out with me numerous times drove the car and didn't hear them while I did.
So for now, I think I'm leaving the complaints until I know for definite something isn't right.

 

[Terminator x]

Afaik car can send 100% of torque to the rear which is another confusion eg not "power" .

TX.

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

 

[GSB]

Afaik car can send 100% of torque to the rear which is another confusion eg not "power" .

TX.

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

The capabily is certainly there, but it's theoretical. The front axle is permanently active and unlike the rear axle, cannot be 'turned off". To get 100% torque/ power / pixie dust to the rear axle you must have 0% going to the front axle, which of course means the front wheels must be in free air, or on a surface of extraordinary slipperiness. Not likely to happen in real life...

 

[GSB]

Here is another confusion. Audi Canada's recommended service intervals on an S3 do not allow for, or suggest tyre rotation....Reason, "It is 4 wheel drive vehicle Sir"

My previous haldex car hated tyre swaps. So this is probably a good thing. A space save wheel would have it crabbing along the road as the differing diameters threw both the awd system and the rear lsd into total confusion.

There always used to be a policy with moving tyres around to equalise wear. Handy on a two wheel drive car, and especially useful on a front wheel drive car where the front wheels are doing all the work, and a useful opportunity to give the near side tyres a break since they take a battering from the thousands of extra right turns we all do on roundabouts (in the UK)

However, now we have extra long service intervals so the opportunity to maximise wear is greatly reduced, and with an all wheel drive car the difference in wear is greatly reduced anyway as the work is being shared more effectively. Add in 'handed' fitment if tyres which means you cant swap left to right anymore, and tyre rotation is no longer worth the bother,

 

[WarwickL]

Did tyre rotation back to front on my Golf R - tyre longevity plus ensuring best tyres were on the front where it counts.

Doing the same on my S3 with same results.

Standard VW and Audi process here in Aussie as well.

 

[Terminator x]

@GSB re tyre wear, I had to swap my fronts out at 8k miles as they were so low whilst the rears still had 5mm left!

TX.

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

 

[GSB]

@GSB re tyre wear, I had to swap my fronts out at 8k miles as they were so low whilst the rears still had 5mm left!

TX.

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

Now here's a man who's really enjoying his car.

I don't think I've ever been through a set of tyres that fast, it hurts to much to pay for them. At only 8000 miles on your fronts I think your dealer is going to have to follow you around with a pit crew to be able to swap your tyres at the optimum time!

 

[Terminator x]

Ha ha I don't drive that hard honestly! Surprised by it myself. P Zero's so perhaps just really soft?

TX.

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

 

[DrEskimo]

Did tyre rotation back to front on my Golf R - tyre longevity plus ensuring best tyres were on the front where it counts.

Doing the same on my S3 with same results.

Standard VW and Audi process here in Aussie as well.

Obviously it's up to you, but it's generally agreed that you should always have the better tyres on the rear, not the front.

Generally, drivers are likely to counter steer if they skid and put the car into oversteer. Unlike understeer, this is more difficult to correct, so by having better tyres on the rear you give yourself a better chance at correcting it.

http://kumhotyre.co.uk/kumho-news/should-you-fit-new-tyres-to-the-front-or-rear/

Appreciate this is FWD, but given the way Haldex operates, the same probably applies.

When my fronts need replacing (which they will do first), I move the rears to the front (assuming they have decent life left) and put the new ones on the rear. Keep rotating that way. On a 4wd it's less of an issue though as my fronts are always within 1mm of my rears....but then I have proper quattro so maybe mines different *places tongue in cheek*

 

[WarwickL]

Been through too many skid control courses with the company I worked for and instructors always taught us to get better tyres in the front in AWD cars and it was demonstrated on the skid pan

I'll go with what I've been taught and learnt driving for 4 decades

Edit - must say though the five Subaru's I've owned did a much better job on even tyre wear than my two VAG AWD cars and behaved much better on the roads I've traveled over the years - dirt, gravel, sand, formed roads.

Couldn't go back to one though, interiors were just awful

 

[DrEskimo]

Been through too many skid control courses with the company I worked for and instructors always taught us to get better tyres in the front in AWD cars and it was demonstrated on the skid pan

I'll go with what I've been taught and learnt driving for 4 decades

Edit - must say though the five Subaru's I've owned did a much better job on even tyre wear than my two VAG AWD cars and behaved much better on the roads I've traveled over the years - dirt, gravel, sand, formed roads.

Couldn't go back to one though, interiors were just awful

Ah yes...well then I don't think you fall into the 'average driver' category for the rule above to apply!

I on the other hand have zero experience dealing with a skid, so will put my faith in the tyre experts that wrote such article above!

I really should/wish I did more advance driver courses...

 

[WarwickL]

Never heard of a tyre expert, especially one from a tyre company

Edit - first Subaru I owned (well, company car), decided to take out a farmers fence, leap off a 4 foot paddock terrace and end up back on the gravel road. Drove it all the way back home without issue (600 km).

Car was disposed of and MD put me in a Nissan Pathfinder as punishment

Those were good days.

 

[steeve]

Sorry but I have an email from BorgWarner saying it is front wheel drive when it doesn't sense the need to transfer power to the rear.....

Worked in vehicle manufacture and all our tyre suppliers insist that best tyres should always be on the rear whether front, rear or four wheel drive.

 

[GSB]

Sorry but I have an email from BorgWarner saying it is front wheel drive when it doesn't sense the need to transfer power to the rear.....

Isn't that what we've just been saying?

 

[WarwickL]

Isn't that what we've just been saying?

Nope, only the FWD/RWD:AWD part.

The other bit of reality is up for discussion

 

[WarwickL]

Worked in vehicle manufacture and all our tyre suppliers insist that best tyres should always be on the rear whether front, rear or four wheel drive.

Must be true then.

Manufacturer versus real world huh

Must be why no one modifies their car

 

[GSB]

Nope, only the FWD/RWD:AWD part.

The other bit of reality is up for discussion

Well, Borg Warners statement is true, it really is front drive when it doesn't sense the need to transfer torque to the rear.

That's not in doubt, what doesn't seem to be widely understood is that this is an active system, and it doesn't need to see a speed difference between front and rear axles to couple front to rear. It can, and does, put torque to the rear axle almost all the time.

There seems to be a communal psychological block with this system, with a widespread belief thats it's only reactive to front wheel slip, and works like an on/off switch. It's a lot more complex and finely tuned than that basic model, and the active control is highly adjustable. It can be (and is) tuned from car to car, and even between trim levels of the same car. Hence the RS gets a more active rear driveline than the S, which is again probably rather more aggressive than the S-Line.

The more I read about the system and understand it's many abilities, the more I like it. It really shouldn't be seen as the poor mans quattro, or not a 'proper' quattro, as it has some truly impressive capabilities.

 

[WarwickL]

Well, Borg Warners statement is true, it really is front drive when it doesn't sense the need to transfer torque to the rear.

.

I think most of us agreed on that a while back

 

[WarwickL]

Mine kicks in on the straights in 2.d & 3rd gear mostly, only low speeds say 20-30mph as the turbo starts to spool, then the TC cuts it and its a good 3-4 second delay before you can get any decent pace on.

WTF, only just read back through this.

Even the few times I've managed to get the rear out, TC hasn't cut in. Never had it kick in blasting around roads in dynamic. Maybe mine is broke like my no-RWD haldex ....

 

[GSB]

I think most of us agreed on that a while back

While everyone else still seems to think we're still driving around on the running gear of a mk2 golf syncro.

The key is how often it senses the need to transfer torque to the rear, and the answer is, most of the time you're driving it, and hardly ever when you've parked it...

 

[GSB]

Those suffering from excessive and unwarranted operation of traction control, especially in new cars, please see this thread and provide as much info as you can.

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-traction-control-too-sensitive-poll.301767/