It's all about the diameter of induction pipework with no restrictions and the size of the air box length and width .
High flow airfilters vs OEM----
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Just throw the home made foam insulation heat shield in the bin fit the s2000 filter and close the bonnet no need to try an re invent the wheel when the product is proven
I agree with you that your heat shield would mean the pod is getting a lot cooler air than it would without it. But not only a small portion of the pod is sucking up air. This means less air is getting to the turbo = less hp. Use the s2000 pod with no heat shield (or badger5 heat shield if you must). Then upgrade your intercooler
Is this okish? non vag, Green Cotton stainless heat shield and a cold feed from lower bumper to bottom of cone air filter.
Still surrounds the filter too much for my liking. I have no experience with this stuff though. Hard to know without doing a dyno before and after
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Only purpose of a 'heat shield' is to mount the filter/maf securely.
Temperature of air at the filter is meaningless on a turbocharged car, efficiency of inter cooler and air getting to the inter oiler dictates IATs.
Doesn't matter what you do at the filter, it's going through a heat pump (turbo).
Temperature of air at the filter is meaningless on a turbocharged car, efficiency of inter cooler and air getting to the inter oiler dictates IATs.
Doesn't matter what you do at the filter, it's going through a heat pump (turbo).
Thermodynamics come into play a little. So it isn't 100% pointless, but a good intercooler is much more important.
You are right about supporting the TIP though. I made a bracket out of some strip metal, but the heat shield does a much better job and looks so much better
Folks, just did some research and this article explains the importants of intake air temp for turbos, also some tips to improve reduce intake temp. This article also did an experiment on Mazda 6 showing 20F difference in intake temp would cost you 30WHP..intersting.....http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/the-effects-of-intake-air-temperatures-on-turbocharged-vehicles/ tell me what you think?
Article also mentioned the bigger intake pipe the better-cooler air..etc
Article also mentioned the bigger intake pipe the better-cooler air..etc
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That article refers to changes in ambient air temperatures, which makes sense, as hotter ambient air means the intercooler has less cooling ability.
I would love to see a filter fed with +20 degree air and the differences recorded, but i would put my left knacker on it being negligable.
Bottom line, worry about securely mounting a fragile maf sensor and TIP, not what, where and how the air filter is gettin air. It will get what it needs, the engine bay isnt a vacuum.
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SuperKarl that article explains very clearly and exactly why it is important to get cool air into the air filter.
Hotter air is less dense so the turbo compressor will need to spin faster to compress it to the same pressure as cooler air. This will mean the turbo is likley to be less efficient and have to work harder.
Also the action of compressing the air causes it's temperature to rise. The rise in temperature is related the increase in pressure. As an example if your turbo is increasing the air pressure by 1 bar that may result in an increase in temperature of 40 degrees.
If you start off with air at 15 degrees then it will be leaving the turbo at 55 degrees. If you start off with air at 35 degrees it will be leaving at 75 degrees.
The air doesn't gets hot because it's passing through something that is hot, its the action of compressing it that causes the temperature increase.And the amount of heating is related to the pressure increase. More boost more temperature so larger intercooler required.
In a car the intake is normally always positioned in front of the radiator in a high pressure area. So you get ambient air temperature and a small amount of ram air pressure at higher speeds.
In most engine compartments the air entering the compartment will have come through the radiator and this will have heated it up. If you position the filter without any shielding there is a good chance you will be pulling in warmer than ambient air.
Careful design of an intake system will give you intake air at ambient temperatures, with a small ram air effect and little pressure loss across the intake.
The problem with dynos is they are static and the air speed from the fans on most dynos is probably little more than what you get at 30 MPH.
Motorbikes have been using ram air very successfully for more than 20 years.
If you only ever drive at 60 mph you will get little from ram air but it does represent positive pressure increases for no extra work.
http://www.sportrider.com/ram-air-whats-it-worth
Karl.
Hotter air is less dense so the turbo compressor will need to spin faster to compress it to the same pressure as cooler air. This will mean the turbo is likley to be less efficient and have to work harder.
Also the action of compressing the air causes it's temperature to rise. The rise in temperature is related the increase in pressure. As an example if your turbo is increasing the air pressure by 1 bar that may result in an increase in temperature of 40 degrees.
If you start off with air at 15 degrees then it will be leaving the turbo at 55 degrees. If you start off with air at 35 degrees it will be leaving at 75 degrees.
The air doesn't gets hot because it's passing through something that is hot, its the action of compressing it that causes the temperature increase.And the amount of heating is related to the pressure increase. More boost more temperature so larger intercooler required.
In a car the intake is normally always positioned in front of the radiator in a high pressure area. So you get ambient air temperature and a small amount of ram air pressure at higher speeds.
In most engine compartments the air entering the compartment will have come through the radiator and this will have heated it up. If you position the filter without any shielding there is a good chance you will be pulling in warmer than ambient air.
Careful design of an intake system will give you intake air at ambient temperatures, with a small ram air effect and little pressure loss across the intake.
The problem with dynos is they are static and the air speed from the fans on most dynos is probably little more than what you get at 30 MPH.
Motorbikes have been using ram air very successfully for more than 20 years.
If you only ever drive at 60 mph you will get little from ram air but it does represent positive pressure increases for no extra work.
http://www.sportrider.com/ram-air-whats-it-worth
Karl.
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you really think the density different is THAT significant for this application:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-temperature-pressure-density-d_771.html
We are only taking about percentage points. but 2% of 200bhp is 4bhp. And 2% of 300bhp is 6bhp.
If you look at this dyno correction calculator and put in fixed values of air pressure and vapor pressure and just alter intake air temperature then you get an idea of the effect of intake temps.
https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_cf.htm
The reference conditions for this calculator are, air pressure is 29.235 inches Hg and vapor pressure is 0 in Hg.
Put in a temperature of 77F about 25 degrees C and you get 1.
If you lower the temperature to 59F (15C) you get 0.98 try 90F (32C) you get 1.014 and 99F (37C) you get 1.024.
So from that you can see if ambient air temperature is 18 degrees and the intake temp is 25 degrees because of heating by hot air from the radiator/ intercooler/ engine etc there will be a 2% loss in power. If the intake temp is higher 32 degrees it will be 2+1.4 = 3.4% difference.
karl.
If you look at this dyno correction calculator and put in fixed values of air pressure and vapor pressure and just alter intake air temperature then you get an idea of the effect of intake temps.
https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_cf.htm
The reference conditions for this calculator are, air pressure is 29.235 inches Hg and vapor pressure is 0 in Hg.
Put in a temperature of 77F about 25 degrees C and you get 1.
If you lower the temperature to 59F (15C) you get 0.98 try 90F (32C) you get 1.014 and 99F (37C) you get 1.024.
So from that you can see if ambient air temperature is 18 degrees and the intake temp is 25 degrees because of heating by hot air from the radiator/ intercooler/ engine etc there will be a 2% loss in power. If the intake temp is higher 32 degrees it will be 2+1.4 = 3.4% difference.
karl.
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But that doesn't take into account actual engine intake temperatures, ie. At the manifold sensor.
I'd understand if we were talking about an N/A car but we're not. There's more at play
I'd understand if we were talking about an N/A car but we're not. There's more at play
Best way to prove it without using theorys etc would be to get someones cars on the rollers with and without a heat shield, then with and without a CAI. But as prawn has said, he doesn't bother with a CAI and his car probably gets thrashed significantly more than ours and still works fine. he might gain 2hp or something stupid from a CAI but does that 2hp realllllly make that much difference? it's all pub figures at the end of the day. if you're that intrested in going a tiny bit faster just rip the rear seats & spare wheel out.
I did have my sapre wheel off, so here you go anther 2hp, total of 4hp=aprrox 0.05 sec FASTER 1/4 MILE...HAAAAAAAAA
Just to chip in, I changed from oem airbox with dry foam filter to the S2000 cone, with no cold feed or heat shield, the car feels more responsive, especially at higher revs, not sat in traffic for any time yet, so no real heat soak yet, which will probably make some difference.
so far, day 1, it gives the sound of "bo..bo....fast beat after 4000rpm-a low bass sound and does not drone., anything before that is quite as stock.
Bare in mind once you ditch the original TIP and get a B5 V3 or similar then the sound produced will change.
Really odd thread this, lots of questions about this filter and the pros and cons... all of which have been covered in depth previously.
Really odd thread this, lots of questions about this filter and the pros and cons... all of which have been covered in depth previously.
Ben jah min
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thanks man, I have not upgrade this yet. Do you think this will improve throttle responses or else ???
I've assumed you've got an S3 by the fact your S2000 filter fitted directly onto the MAF? If so, the TIP along with the original downpipe/cat are probably the two most restrictive items on the car. It's all about the flow.
