Audi S3 DSG Stage 3 car's, Torque limits?

[isimpoi]

Hi, fairly new to the forum and haven't really had a chance to look through people's car threads.

I was wondering if anyone was running an Audi S3 with DSG at stage 3?

I'm trying to decide between buying an Audi S3 with DSG or manual gearbox and remap it to stage 2+ but wondered if I did get bored of the power at stage 2+ would a DSG car manage the torque at stage 3?

Anyone have this sort of info?

Many Thanks

 

[nluk100]

Depends what you call stage 3 and what torque figure you are aiming at. Std DSG clutch packs are good for 600Nm, likewise with the rods. Anything above this will usually require both new rods and uprated clutch packs.

 

[isimpoi]

Should of possibly phrased it differently, stage 3 I thought was turbo build but seems a lot of people running stage 2+ with the TTE420 hybrid turbo which would probably be what I would go for. Well I was originally aiming just for stage 2+ spec so roughly 350-360bhp and 350-360 ftlb but after seeing people using the TTE420 turbo and getting 410bhp and 440ftlb it seems more appealing haha but wasn't so sure if DSG can handle that sort of torque

 

[S3Alex]

Decked is running the sort of figures you're talking about and is upgrading the clutch pack on his shortly.

 

[isimpoi]

Decked is running the sort of figures you're talking about and is upgrading the clutch pack on his shortly.

Will try and find his progress thread and have a look, thanks

 

[NVM]

Upgrading the clutch pack is deffo advised on anything past Stage 2.

 

[isimpoi]

Upgrading the clutch pack is deffo advised on anything past Stage 2.

Do you include stage 2+ in that? Since there's at least four car's I've looked at all running stage 2+ with the standard dsg clutch. So I would of thought stage 2+ could handle that level of torque but stage 3 possibly it would struggle

 

[S3Alex]

The limit that most seem to accept is around the 400-420lb mark,beyond which simple software revisions won't work,and you would need a new clutch pack.

Speak to Decked.

 

[nluk100]

Well I am running over 410 lb/ft on my stage 2+ and am seeing no issues with slipping. Furthermore, my tuner has several dsg cars running 445 lb/ft on std clutch packs with no issues. You will need a dsg remap though as they increase the clamping pressure to prevent slip. For info, 445 lb/ft is 600Nm.

 

[S3Alex]

Well I am running over 410 lb/ft on my stage 2+ and am seeing no issues with slipping. Furthermore, my tuner has several dsg cars running 445 lb/ft on std clutch packs with no issues. You will need a dsg remap though as they increase the clamping pressure to prevent slip. For info, 445 lb/ft is 600Nm.

That's the answer.

Go to the guys running the torque on the DSG for the right answers.

 

[DeckedS3]

I've got some experience with this. Ive established that it's not all about power figures, it's more about how the power is delivered. There are lots of videos online of DSG clutches slipping and mine is no different. However, there are some cars out there running lots more power than me and experiencing less slip. I think the reason for this is because the clutches apply more pressure the further up the rev range you go. So cars with more power hit full boost later than I do and get higher clamping pressure at that point (when needed). Mine hits full boost much earlier, so less clutch pressure, hence slip. Obviously your always going to get a bit of slip with big power anyway but mine doesn't bode well with the oem clutch pack. Ive decided to get a Dodson clutchpack that apparently grips differently to oem. Oem is designed to slip at a certain point. The Dodson is designed to grip more. So fingers crossed it works......

 

[Alex_Wil]

Mines standard and running absolutely fine ( touch wood )

 

[isimpoi]

That's the answer.

Go to the guys running the torque on the DSG for the right answers.

That's who I'm trying to find haha. Certain people seem to have differing info on the boxes, someone said that the limit was 350nm but then others say 500nm, 550nm and others 600nm so can get confusing haha. But I think from I've gathered the torque limit on the standard box is 350nm and then can be remapped to change the limit roughly between 500nm-600nm... At least I think that's right haha

 

[isimpoi]

I've got some experience with this. Ive established that it's not all about power figures, it's more about how the power is delivered. There are lots of videos online of DSG clutches slipping and mine is no different. However, there are some cars out there running lots more power than me and experiencing less slip. I think the reason for this is because the clutches apply more pressure the further up the rev range you go. So cars with more power hit full boost later than I do and get higher clamping pressure at that point (when needed). Mine hits full boost much earlier, so less clutch pressure, hence slip. Obviously your always going to get a bit of slip with big power anyway but mine doesn't bode well with the oem clutch pack. Ive decided to get a Dodson clutchpack that apparently grips differently to oem. Oem is designed to slip at a certain point. The Dodson is designed to grip more. So fingers crossed it works......

Been trying to find you haha, thanks for the info much appreciate it. I guess its more a case of wait and see how the DSG box on my car handles it and how it's mapped.

I've thought about APR's switch-able maps which will help due to not forcing the gearbox to work near its limit all the time more just for 1/4mile run's and the odd weekend. Plus I've heard APR's maps are usually quite smooth delivery wise so hoping that would reduce chance of slip.

After you saying the name Dodson that instantly brings an 750bhp R32 DSG car to mind, so I'm sure if it's handling the torque then Dodson's are definitely doing something right haha.

Also @nluk100 who is your car mapped with if you don't mind me asking?

 

[DeckedS3]

You'll be fine running DSG at stage 2+, if you decide to go big, see how it goes and go upgraded clutchpacks if required. I'd recommend a DSG remap anyway.

 

[isimpoi]

Yea stage 2+ with the DSG remap to accompany is the plan, if all goes well with that, then may invest in the TTE420 turbo and see how the box copes.

Thanks again for everyone's input and help, you are a much friendlier bunch and more willing to help than the other forums.

Appreciate the help and information guys

 

[DeckedS3]

Here you can see the car launching OK in the damp (it allows the wheels to spin up rather than the clutch slip), and because the revs are quite high, the clutch grips better for the majority of the pull. But if i were to do that from 1.5k in 2nd, 3rd or 4th (especially in the dry) it slips. You can even see changing into 3rd it slips a bit.

 

[isimpoi]

Ah ok, so I'm assuming at roughly 6.5k revs in 3rd the hesitation is the clutch slipping? Can see that being a pain in the *** if your 1/4 miling or generally trying to drive fast. Launch control is usually 4k revs once dsg is mapped (i think) so hopefully wouldn't slip off launch?

 

[DeckedS3]

Correct, and in the dry it's worse due to the wheels gripping on tarmac so the weakest link is the clutch hence it slips. But I've only ever seen this on stage 3 cars and above.
K04's power and torque delivery is completely different so don't worry too much. You'll have similar problems with a manual box too.

 

[crazylegscrane]

I can vouch for the manual box clutch slipping...

Mine has started to slip a couple of times when the temperature gets down to near freezing nothing too big at present about 2-3 hundred rpm slip then it grabs again. Had no issues when the warmer weather was here robbing power. It's only happened about three times so far but I guess it's on the limit.

Running a Sachs uprated clutch since going stage II+ had no issues with it at that level of tune but now may have to be changed before any other power mods get done..might just wait it out for the summer though

 

[Paul-RS6]

Here is a thought.

The RS3 has a DQ500 7 speed DSG
The clutch is designed for an engine torque of up to 600 Nm

Now while the gearbox seems to handle what ever is put through it. The prop shafts on ( some) modified cars, particularly on launch control, have been known to lunch themselves and shear the bolts , letting the prop then flail about.

There are stronger aftermarket bolts, but what will break, if they don't?

With this in mind, have you I considered the prop, along with the weaker S3 DSG box?

 

[DeckedS3]

If I'm honest I'd rather eat the prop bolts. A few guys have chewed their gearboxes and they ain't cheap. You can throw the DQ500 box on with a small mod but theupgrades for the DQ250 and software packages give it the edge.

Oh, and guys who chewed their gearboxes were kicking out about 750-800bhp.

 

[S3Alex]

Here is a thought.

The RS3 has a DQ500 7 speed DSG
The clutch is designed for an engine torque of up to 600 Nm

Now while the gearbox seems to handle what ever is put through it. The prop shafts on ( some) modified cars, particularly on launch control, have been known to lunch themselves and shear the bolts , letting the prop then flail about.

There are stronger aftermarket bolts, but what will break, if they don't?

With this in mind, have you I considered the prop, along with the weaker S3 DSG box?

If I'm honest I'd rather eat the prop bolts. A few guys have chewed their gearboxes and they ain't cheap. You can throw the DQ500 box on with a small mod but theupgrades for the DQ250 and software packages give it the edge.

Oh, and guys who chewed their gearboxes were kicking out about 750-800bhp.

These are really good points,and I think a really sensible answer from Decked.

If you remove one weak point,the next one down the line becomes the weakest,and whilst a set of bolts doesn't amount to much,lunching(not launching) a gearbox is expensive.

For sure the broken boxes were at the 750-80bhp mark,but the really important figure is torque,and one of the things Stefan held back on his Golf R was torque,to preserve the 'box.

One thing that always bothers me slightly on the manual car is having removed the clutch from the equation with one that's good for 560lbs(760Nm),the gearbox is next in line after the propshaft bolts......

 

[Paul-RS6]

Indeed, especially when you then inevitably add in a sticky set of grippy tyres, these things need consideration.

 

[S3Alex]

Indeed, especially when you then inevitably add in a sticky set of grippy tyres, these things need consideration.

Also true....I never really get bothered about the Michelin PSS's as I know I can make them break grip,but a hot set of R888's in summer......
That's why I don't do drag starts!