Dane's Hybrid Conversion Thread

[Dane]

LLLLaaaammmmeee,

cheers for the update Bill!

 

[Morgan-VAGCHECK]

Do you have a 118 log you can share Bill ?

 

[slappy_dunbar]

This AM at cold startup, our tester tried feeling around the flange for leaks. Nothing. We're looking into seafoaming it. Yeesh.

I got the PM, Bill.

 

[badger5]

msn added doug

 

[badger5]

Do you have a 118 log you can share Bill ?

hi morgan
from yesterdays running, on CR's actuator with preload etc

Group C:	'118			
	RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
TIME				
STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar

29.97	1600	33	70.2	1020
31.17	1600	30	94.5	1100
32.27	2000	27	94.5	1170
33.49	2520	26	94.5	1360
34.72	3080	26	77.3	1680
35.92	3600	25	72.5	1950
37.13	4120	25	73.7	1980
38.34	4600	26	79.2	2030
39.52	5080	27	80.8	2050
40.74	5560	29	89.8	2170
41.96	6040	30	94.5	2150
43.06	6440	32	94.5	2070
44.26	6880	34	94.5	1990
45.46	7320	36	94.5	2000

to put the above into context.. CR actuator, same setup as above just different logs

'115			
RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
			
 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar

1560	34.6	1010	1020
1600	68.4	1540	1010
1720	79.7	1720	1100
2240	93.2	2010	1230
2760	112	2020	1450
3320	160.9	2000	1980
3920	173.7	2000	2110
4440	176.7	2200	2140
5080	183.5	2370	2180
5720	191.7	2550	2260
6240	186.5	2550	2260
6640	175.9	2550	2190
7040	172.2	2550	2170
7360	164.7	2540	2140

 

[Welly]

That is the weirdest thing I have seen in a while.... :-/

 

[Westy]

That is the weirdest thing I have seen in a while.... :-/

What are we looking at, the boost fluctuating up and down?

 

[Welly]

What are we looking at, the boost fluctuating up and down?

I just meant the situation in general. If the actuator cracks open at 14 PSI when pressure tested, and then the car is run with N75 electrically disconnected (meaning actuator pressure), it should see that pressure as tested manually (14 PSI).

However, the turbo on actuator pressure during load is only making 7.5 PSI.

Makes no sense AT ALL.

 

[badger5]

What are we looking at, the boost fluctuating up and down?

no.. the map I have started with is speedysteves... which was always bring in boost slowly setup.
Whats odd on Danes is actuator pressure bares no resemblance to what its set to.. and way too low. (such that I think wastegate is being pushed open by the manifold pressure)
Wellys ran 12psi actuator pressure, but, true to form the actuator which was sent on Wellys turbo, when it was refurbished, did'nt return with the unit, and some "other" one came back. A 10psi one.. which wont hold more than 8.5psi with a lot of preload added. I have changed it out to forge one which starts to open, hooked onto the turbo in situ @ 14psi.. but when you run the car up it only ran 7.5psi boost..

 

[Dane]

Never mind Bill posted in the midddle

 

[Westy]

Has anyone complained to CR about them swapping over perfectly decent actuators for gash weak ones?

 

[Dane]

Whats the solution then Bill?

 

[badger5]

I will check forge have fitted the spring I asked for... and if its not what I said I wanted I have some on the shelf to swap out..
its now cold again, so when I swap back of the LCR I am also doing @ same time, I will remove the actuator "again"

 

[Dane]

 

[Welly]

I feel your pain....

 

[Morgan-VAGCHECK]

hi morgan
from yesterdays running, on CR's actuator with preload etc

Group C:	'118			
	RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
TIME				
STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar

29.97	1600	33	70.2	1020
31.17	1600	30	94.5	1100
32.27	2000	27	94.5	1170
33.49	2520	26	94.5	1360
34.72	3080	26	77.3	1680
35.92	3600	25	72.5	1950
37.13	4120	25	73.7	1980
38.34	4600	26	79.2	2030
39.52	5080	27	80.8	2050
40.74	5560	29	89.8	2170
41.96	6040	30	94.5	2150
43.06	6440	32	94.5	2070
44.26	6880	34	94.5	1990
45.46	7320	36	94.5	2000

Hi Bill,

Hmm you would certainly kinda expect more boost than is being seen with that N75 DC even with the oddly behaving actuator.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head that the wastegate flapper is being forced open by the exhaust gasses.

In fact I did experience something similar myself although nowhere near to such a large degree.. at the time I put it down to the tubular manifolds better flow, & also the fact the wastegate had been quiet heavily ported (since previous testing)

Funnily enough we also had some issues with the CR supplied actuator that was fitted when the thrust bearing was replaced, & I ended up having to get another one from them. Albeit what happened in our case was we would set our desired crack pressure do a couple of runs on the dyno with each run making a little less boost than the previous.

On checking the actuator the crack pressure had dropped, we added some more pre-load to get back to where we wanted it only for it to drop off again within a few more runs.

Whether the radiant heat being generated from the sustained tests was having an affect on the spring, or the spring itself wasn't up to much I dunno.. but once swapped for the replacement actuator together with a small heat shield made for it we didn't experience any more more probs.

For reference with the replacement actuator set to crack at 0.75bar, 1.75bar+ boost was possible at the top end without the N75 DC being anywhere near maxed out.

Anyway good luck with it, I am sure you will get to the bottom of it.

Regards
Morgan

 

[badger5]

Hi Bill,

Hmm you would certainly kinda expect more boost than is being seen with that N75 DC even with the oddly behaving actuator.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head that the wastegate flapper is being forced open by the exhaust gasses.

In fact I did experience something similar myself although nowhere near to such a large degree.. at the time I put it down to the tubular manifolds better flow, & also the fact the wastegate had been quiet heavily ported (since previous testing)

Funnily enough we also had some issues with the CR supplied actuator that was fitted when the thrust bearing was replaced, & I ended up having to get another one from them. Albeit what happened in our case was we would set our desired crack pressure do a couple of runs on the dyno with each run making a little less boost than the previous.

On checking the actuator the crack pressure had dropped, we added some more pre-load to get back to where we wanted it only for it to drop off again within a few more runs.

Whether the radiant heat being generated from the sustained tests was having an affect on the spring, or the spring itself wasn't up to much I dunno.. but once swapped for the replacement actuator together with a small heat shield made for it we didn't experience any more more probs.

For reference with the replacement actuator set to crack at 0.75bar, 1.75bar+ boost was possible at the top end without the N75 DC being anywhere near maxed out.

Anyway good luck with it, I am sure you will get to the bottom of it.

Regards
Morgan

thanks morgan..
I am hoping I am not going mad..
actuator was removed and refitted yet again.. oh joys... (the CR one behaved exactly as you describe.. it would be set, and then run less and less......)

I removed the red spring out of the forge one, which cracked open off the car at 13psi. I have fitted a white spring now, which is beefy, and checked back on the turbo again with preload its cracking open at 18psi... which is way higher than I would ever choose, BUT given the experience up to now that actual boost runs some several psi less than this static test I am hedging my bets.
Gods knows.

back on the dyno in a short while.
cars eh!

 

[Dane]

Fingers crossed my end!

 

[slappy_dunbar]

...the CR one behaved exactly as you describe.. it would be set, and then run less and less......

?

How is such behavior possible? It seems almost diabolical of a parts maker to do such a thing.

 

[voorhees]

?

How is such behavior possible? It seems almost diabolical of a parts maker to do such a thing.

It does need mentioning to them,someone has gained a decent one along the way

 

[Morgan-VAGCHECK]

Hi,

I think the actuators CR use "might" be Garret ones, although I am not 100% certain on this.

When I discussed the actuator behaviour with CR they said it was not an issue any other K04.2x hybrid user had previously reported.

Regards
Morgan

 

[Dane]

Well my thoughts are, I've had to buy a forge actuator, not something I would of had to do if the one supplied was working properly

 

[badger5]

Hi,

I think the actuators CR use "might" be Garret ones, although I am not 100% certain on this.

When I discussed the actuator behaviour with CR they said it was not an issue any other K04.2x hybrid user had previously reported.

Regards
Morgan

I have had this "line" from them also.. Reality is somewhat different to what you get told.

My Patience has run out.

 

[badger5]

an interesting comparison of Wellys when it ran its best power, vs danes on n75/ecu control, vs actuator disconnected (careful) run.

wot only applied on the disconnected run at just before 5krpm - note the boost is the same as wellys

 

[badger5]

interesting stuff ahead (for some)
comparison of a very tweaked forge actuator, white spring, which cracks open at 21psi, vs the previous setting of 18psi (I have added as much preload as it has travel for... and slightly too much - see further)

We have held an additional 1-2psi, now holding 20-21psi where 18psi was what it held earlier. (wastegate is being pushed open is my thought-must be quite some manifold pressure there, acting on the larger surface area of the wastegate penny.. 660mm^2 now from 452mm^2 of a stock exhaust housing)

Actuator (n75 electrically off) comparisons, with these differing preloads..

note the blue trace has "creep", which is I think because I have used up almost all the forge actuators travel (which is'nt enough imho anyhows compared to other actuators) - Artificially made the effective wastegate hole smaller again, recovered some boost by this also... Hmmmm


Comparison of earlier in the week MBC on much lower actuator pressure vs the higher pressure its holding of current.

 

[Morgan-VAGCHECK]

Hi Bill,

I would have personally thought with pressure reference/regulation removed from the actuator, & the white Forge spring boost would be a lot more in that first plot !

I guess the flapper must be being blown open as you suspect..

What will be your next steps ?

Regards
Morgan

 

[badger5]

Hi Bill,

I would have personally thought with pressure reference/regulation removed from the actuator, & the white Forge spring boost would be a lot more in that first plot !

I guess the flapper must be being blown open as you suspect..

What will be your next steps ?

Regards
Morgan

well, some more, lot more runs, done during this afternoon.

my theory: (oh no another one) - backpressure in hotside/manifold is significant, and proportional to the total boost being run... more boost more backpressure, which is why increase preload to a v.high level, and the uncontrolled boost level rises. I did'nt go wot until 5krpm during that run and was trying to just ease some throttle without the turbo letting loose to crazy boost..

I think the 29mm bored out wastegate is too large also now.. the clip, i am still 50/50 on being the right thing to do. zero surge which was its objective, and only 200rpm slower spool than wellys was.. As to what other side effects its had, I'm not sure. airflow for airflow its pretty close wellys vs danes. One big difference between them is timing. wellys ran a lot more than danes wants to. From car i have seen, largeports always soak up additional timing without cf's going mad over smallports... to the tune of 10 degree difference. 1.5deg added and 5bhp gained on what was a hot run.. as a guide of the margin it makes. (i dont have to tell you this obviously, but for others reading this its maybe of interest)

ignition and airflow comparisons-water/meth on wellys largeport, none yet on danes smallport-food for thought

more tomorrow.. when wmi is finished & running

upside, egt's are lovely - nice and low for the power/boost

 

[MUSH]

Feeling for yous on this project, who would have thought a k04 would bring so many issues. Testiment to the train of thought that the hybrid k04 is definately a stage 3 setup and just as much if not more of an **** to sort out as a BIG turbo.

Liking all the info your sharing Bill keep it up and good luck with it all!!

 

[badger5]

once sorted, and a lot learnt along the way, their will be a decent place for hybrids.... but they are not simple to extract power of without some side effects. I am sharing this openly so peeps can see the good the bad and the ugly. Some myths and industry turbo supplier BS uncovered along the way.

 

[Sandip]

What kind od egt's are you seeing on Danes Bill?

 

[Morgan-VAGCHECK]

well, some more, lot more runs, done during this afternoon.

my theory: (oh no another one) - backpressure in hotside/manifold is significant, and proportional to the total boost being run... more boost more backpressure, which is why increase preload to a v.high level, and the uncontrolled boost level rises. I did'nt go wot until 5krpm during that run and was trying to just ease some throttle without the turbo letting loose to crazy boost..

I think the 29mm bored out wastegate is too large also now.. the clip, i am still 50/50 on being the right thing to do. zero surge which was its objective, and only 200rpm slower spool than wellys was.. As to what other side effects its had, I'm not sure. airflow for airflow its pretty close wellys vs danes. One big difference between them is timing. wellys ran a lot more than danes wants to. From car i have seen, largeports always soak up additional timing without cf's going mad over smallports... to the tune of 10 degree difference. 1.5deg added and 5bhp gained on what was a hot run.. as a guide of the margin it makes. (i dont have to tell you this obviously, but for others reading this its maybe of interest)

ignition and airflow comparisons-water/meth on wellys largeport, none yet on danes smallport-food for thought

more tomorrow.. when wmi is finished & running

upside, egt's are lovely - nice and low for the power/boost

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your update, interesting stuff indeed.

Excellent news the turbine clipping appears to have eliminated any surge occuring, air flow looks very stable in your plot.

Best of luck with it for todays tweaks.

Regards
Morgan

 

[badger5]

on this boost 840-880

 

[Dane]

So the water meths on. Some excellent workmanship from Tuffty!

And I can still get to the cd changer

The nozzle in place

The supply from the tank runs down the passenger side of the car underneath all of the trim panels so it's totally hidden

And the wiring runs from underneath the steering wheel, along underneath trim again, behind the seat and then across behind the carpet underneath the rear bench and into the boot.

Currently using the medium size nozzle.

 

[MUSH]

Take it you get lots of pipe with these kits?

How much are they going for?

Think if (most probably WHEN) i get a WMI kit ill endeavour to keep it to the confines of my bay. Probably put the battery in the boot, as a nice battery box looks better than the tank ans pump etc.

However it does look good though. Has Tufty chopped the lhs trim panel in half? I wouldnt even know as even though ive got an S3, ive only looked in the boot about 3 times!! lol

Good to see such a good mod though mate keep it up

 

[Dane]

I think it was £300 ish for the kit including the wiring and pipe work.

Bill and Tuffty did a WMI setup in a TT from the boot before so they knew it would work well.

The left hand side panel has been carefully cut in half to make the install easier and easy to live with.

 

[aragorn]

Is it possible that the wastegate penny simply isnt sealing properly/well enough, so rather than being blown open its just leaking?

Would explain why with no N75 your only making 7psi when the actuator visibly doesnt crack open until 14?

 

[Welly]

So the water meths on. Some excellent workmanship from Tuffty!

And I can still get to the cd changer

The nozzle in place

The supply from the tank runs down the passenger side of the car underneath all of the trim panels so it's totally hidden

And the wiring runs from underneath the steering wheel, along underneath trim again, behind the seat and then across behind the carpet underneath the rear bench and into the boot.

Currently using the medium size nozzle.

Love the mod to the CD access panel.... Got a lot of time for that.

Glad it's installed and sorted now - good work :thumbsup:

 

[badger5]

righto....... after several very frustrating days...

a Conclusion, not the conclusion.

I have just had the car run uncontrolled boost, on its forge actuator on n75 on and n75 off... Removed it and the things sticking!

youtube sticking video..
YouTube - ‪sticking-actuator.3gp‬‏


Whilst flapping the wastegate penny open and shut repeatedly, it became apparent in a "double take" kind of way... that the thing sometimes did'nt close. The Penny is hanging up on the edge of the wastegate hole. The wastegate hole, bored as it is is causing most of the issues we have been suffering, I am convinced of it. The wastegate penny hanging up on the hole is the final ****** straw!

Sticking penny (sticking slightly open) combined with a now sticking actuator, this things doomed to never work. days of work completely wasted. It has to come off and start over. not a happy bunny with the turbo one bit! CR will have an irate badger on the phone tomorrow, this is beyond a joke.

 

[Sandip]

Sorry to hear the trouble you're having Bill, makes it worse when you spend time on doing things properly to ensure all the work's been done right, only to find that the parts aren't up to scratch!

Time to make your own Badger5 Actuator??

 

[badger5]

CARS in danes hands again.. so hoping he's enjoying it and rid of the micra for a while
too add to the rest of the hassles, the n75 seems to have packed in tonight, giving full on boost no matter whether its connected or not.. joys of vag cars.

sticking actuator, sticking wastegate, expired n75.......... what else eh?