Forge supersize valve vs madmax

[Dani_B19]

Has anyone got any experince with of these?

im running the madmax valve but it seems to be unpopular.

Ive heard it takes over -20psi (vhg is it) to crack the valve but i run it in a dv relocation kit and have it so the valve has the boost on its base, so this combined with the vacuum seems to open the valve fine, the only time i notice the flutter noise is at low speeds etc when the boost is minimal or has t kicked in.

I know the forge valve ports are around 5mm bigger in diameter and i believe the boost chamber is bigger but will i. Otice and improvements?

the mad max valve is exteremly responsive and holds boost far better than the 008 valve.

Anyway story over, is it worth upgradig as i can get the forge valve for under £100?

 

[<tuffty/>]

No point in a supersize until you hit around 350hp+... the mad max has too stiff a spring IMO... fine for an EVO, **** for a 20v... TT owners are reporting flutter on lift off and this is due to there not being enough vacuum on a 20v to lift the thing...

I run a yellow spring and shim (to reduce the piston volume for better response) on my supersize

<tuffty/>

 

[Alex C]

the valve has the boost on its base, so this combined with the vacuum seems to open the valve fine,

so off throttle the vacuum is trying to lift open the valve against the spring?

and on boost the boost is also trying to lift open the valve against the spring?

 

[Sam_]

What does a leak free 20v produce in terms of Hg at idle?

I run the Tial QR which is pretty nice. Sold the 007 on. I do get very slight, very occasional flutter at low rpm but I'm not sure if that's just the noise of the valve as it doesn't sound like the usual flutter when you have a non functional valve. This thing will hold way more boost than I'd ever be showing it.

Have you considered just using an OEM 710n though? Might be worth a shot.

 

[badger5]

Has anyone got any experince with of these?

im running the madmax valve but it seems to be unpopular.

Ive heard it takes over -20psi (vhg is it) to crack the valve but i run it in a dv relocation kit and have it so the valve has the boost on its base, so this combined with the vacuum seems to open the valve fine, the only time i notice the flutter noise is at low speeds etc when the boost is minimal or has t kicked in.

I know the forge valve ports are around 5mm bigger in diameter and i believe the boost chamber is bigger but will i. Otice and improvements?

the mad max valve is exteremly responsive and holds boost far better than the 008 valve.

Anyway story over, is it worth upgradig as i can get the forge valve for under £100?

Can I ask how you determined it holds boost better than an 008?

 

[Dani_B19]

No the car only slightly flutters on low speed/rpm, on high speeds/rpm i get no flutter.

Thats why i said i have the valve on push/pull orientation so their is the boost and vacuum opening the valve not just vacuum.

The car only used to make 14/15psi bill, now it makes 15/16psi and is stronger through every gear. Also on vortex the valve is claimed tobe tested to 30 +psi before it starts to leak.

 

[Prawn]

Ah, so it's possible that it holds more boost, but that's only due to the previous valve not working properly.

That makes sense, it's not 'better' per say, it's simply not broken.

 

[jezzy]

Hi Dani
As you know i run this valve (madmax) i have no problems and my car pulls a lot harder.
The fluttering sound is normal for the evo valve or so they say on vortex.
linky VWVortex.com - flutter from EVO9 diverter valve

 

[Prawn]

The fluttering sound is normal for the evo valve or so they say on vortex.
linky VWVortex.com - flutter from EVO9 diverter valve

The flutter sound is entirely normal for a valve that DOESN'T WORK Jezzy.

The fluttering sound you hear is called compressor stall, this is where a pressure wave comes back through the system when the throttle plate is shut and the pressure is not released. The turbo keeps on spinning, and the noise you hear is the air cutting back through the turbine blades, causing it to stall, hence the name compressor stall.

On small framed turbo's with small shafts, compressor stall can actually snap the shafts clean in half in extreme cases.

Granted it's not a massive problem if the valve is opening properly under more load, but it's still not ideal.

 

[jezzy]

Guess what mine has not snapped the turbine shaft.
And guess what no reports of any evo valves snapping the turbine shafts.
Guess what you dont run the evo valve.
So stop scare mongering and comment on something you do run.

 

[superkarl]

I thought it was in a diaphram valves nature to 'flutter' under some conditions, and it being distinguishable between compressor stall and simply the noise the dv makes.
In the same way some bovs are designed to make certain noises for novelty value i.e. Hks ssqv

 

[<tuffty/>]

Guess what mine has not snapped the turbine shaft.
And guess what no reports of any evo valves snapping the turbine shafts.
Guess what you dont run the evo valve.
So stop scare mongering and comment on something you do run.

He isn't scare mongering at all... the blow off valve in its various guises is there to prevent compressor stall AND damage to the turbo... the K03/K04 shaft is tiny in comparison to other turbos including the Evo... the Evo has more vacuum to lift the valve than a 20v... this has been tested... this is why running stiffer springs in 007p's etc is pointless as the crack pressure required for the valve increases with the stronger springs... this means LESS of a gap for the air to escape which promotes the onset of compressor stall... compressor stall and surge is very bad for a turbo... the DV is a safety valve and by promoting this ignorance to how this works is more harmful than the 'scare mongering' that is being suggested here...

The Evo has a different engine, intake and turbo to a typical 1.8t... yes the valve kinda works but is it right for the setup? no... I don't believe so...

While your turbo may not have failed yet that is not to to say it won't... why fit something that has no real benefit (and yes I speak from a little experience and background on this) that has the potential to damage your turbo...

If you choose to fit one then that of course is up to you but the facts are the facts and OEM's go out of their way to protect the engine with suitable components... this is not a suitable product IMO...

I have a supersize Forge valve because I have a larger volume of air to shift and run high boost levels... fitting a larger valve to anything with less than 350hp IMO is really not giving you anything...

Please stop with whole 'it works fine on my car' stuff as in this case this valve isn't much better than running a 007p with a stupidly stiff spring...

And for what its worth I have seen the results of a DV failure on a road car that the owner was using for track days... it was running a K03 hybrid at around 280hp... the DV failed and the resultant compressor stall snapped the shaft like a twig resulting in a fairly catastrophic turbo failure..

<tuffty/>

 

[JD09]

Guess what mine has not snapped the turbine shaft.
And guess what no reports of any evo valves snapping the turbine shafts.
Guess what you dont run the evo valve.
So stop scare mongering and comment on something you do run.

Well that told you, eh Prawn?

 

[Jason.s]

Guess what mine has not snapped the turbine shaft.
And guess what no reports of any evo valves snapping the turbine shafts.
Guess what you dont run the evo valve.
So stop scare mongering and comment on something you do run.

LOL at unnecessary aggression.

They will snap over time, its not going to happen immediately like you`ve believed Prawn is getting at and its not been a huge amount of time that people have started to run these valves. So basically chill the fck out! and basically the EVO valve is incorrect for our cars...hence the flutter!

 

[Prawn]

Guess what mine has not snapped the turbine shaft.
And guess what no reports of any evo valves snapping the turbine shafts.
Guess what you dont run the evo valve.
So stop scare mongering and comment on something you do run.

what

a

****.

Why don't you take your bad advice off to some other forum.

I thought I was quite polite, I didn't say this pikey DV of yours was bad, I didn't say that nobody should buy them, I simply explained what compressor stall was and that it was not normal, and was indicative of a valve which isn't working correctly for that engine.

I also said that shafts snapping was only in extreme cases, and then went on to say:

Granted it's not a massive problem if the valve is opening properly under more load, but it's still not ideal.

But no, you still felt the need to reply like a ****. well done.

 

[badger5]

The car only used to make 14/15psi bill, now it makes 15/16psi and is stronger through every gear. Also on vortex the valve is claimed tobe tested to 30 +psi before it starts to leak.

this push pull thing is like reversing a stock valve to replicate the Evo DV being in "push" mode..
it makes perfect sense that it needs boost to assist in its opening as its spring is very strong, but its side effect is vacuum alone is'nt enough to open it hance the flutter noises on low boost etc....

30psi also held by a stock OE DV, bubble free on testing.. Not as big of course, but is'nt as crap as folks make out

 

[Dani_B19]

I dont know if that was the case nick, the 008 valve was brand new and fitted with a yellow spring in the normal position in which the valve was only opened under vacuum and not via the boost/vacuum way i have the mad max valve.

Totally appreciate the input PT as always, its just im going to be taking the car to over 350bhp either with a hybrid (dans or even his garrett style one if that is still on the go) or via a BT so i may as well fit the forge one, plus ive just sold my 008 so im not buying another one haha.

So for a clear cut answer, is the mad max valve damaging my turbo? As karl has said arnt the diagphram valves prone to flutter due to the construction of them?

 

[Dani_B19]

So would you ditch it in favour of the forge valve then bill?

 

[badger5]

I thought it was in a diaphram valves nature to 'flutter' under some conditions, and it being distinguishable between compressor stall and simply the noise the dv makes.
In the same way some bovs are designed to make certain noises for novelty value i.e. Hks ssqv

if the seal floats up and down, it can make weird noises... which can be mystaken for surge, but is a weak DV not holding shut, and its piston popping open momentarily, releasing boost, which then allows it to drop and seal again, and the cycle continues.... chuff chuff type noises/flutter etc

tricky to see and confirm, given its out of sight

 

[badger5]

So would you ditch it in favour of the forge valve then bill?

nope

I dont like its side effect of not opening fast or at all from just low vacuum tho..
People say its faster... I dont think it is.. The tests I have seen on vortex are flawed, but taken as being gospel.. It aint

Fast acting is a DV which requires minimal vacuum to open FULLY...
Some peeps setups need bigger DV's (or Two stock ones ) to vent fast and fully enough to prevent the flutter noises.. (compressor stall noise remember!)

Use it in push mode and see how you get on.. Just remember when it makes its flutter noises, if it does for you, that those moments are compressor stall... If low boost, low rpm @ time, I doubt anything untoward will occur.. But to me its still not "right" even if it seems to not break anything.. If that makes any sense. (does to me, but I am odd )

 

[jezzy]

i gave an assessment based on realtime running, not some hypothetical scenario.
heres me thinking that capital letters were shouting on the forum.
And all the parts run on these cars are oem from the factory?
As the old time adage says dont knock it till you have tried it.

 

[badger5]

some folks dont need to stick their hands into a flame to know it will burn....

go figure...

and others...............

 

[16Klappe]

You rang?

 

[jezzy]

Some people believe everything they read................
Others move forward and leave them behind

 

[Dani_B19]

Christ this thread didnt take long to turn now did it haha.

 

[16Klappe]

Some people believe everything they read................
Others move forward and leave them behind

LOL, feel free to move forward and leave us behind to have this discussion without you then.

I've enjoyed this thread and learnt some interesting facts from it; hopefully it will stay so others can learn from it too

:thumbsup:

 

[Prawn]

Others move forward and leave them behind

I'd like to see you try...

 

[Dani_B19]

I am running the madmax valve in the push pull way bill and still get flutter in low rpm/speeds.

I think i may bin the madmax off and buy the forge, ill probly sell the madmax valve for what i got it for, plus the fore one is the largest one on the market so ts future proof really lol, plus it looks pretty haha.

 

[Dani_B19]

Nick havent you considered the forge vale to see what benefis (if any that is) would be on your setup?

 

[jezzy]

Its not a closed thread
Dont like the opinions given? dont read simples

 

[jezzy]

I'd like to see you try...

in the current weather conditions?
See ya

 

[Prawn]

in the current weather conditions?
See ya

no chance. Even on actuator pressure I could walk away from your lard ***** fake 4 wheel drive Slow3 rain or shine

(childish I know, but funny)

 

[16Klappe]

I've got all the traction in the world

Surely an opinion is when something is a choice or a preference, but what you are saying is factually incorrect so as such isn't an opinion and is more just bad advice? Compressor stall is compressor stall, no two ways about it. If the compressor stalls, it would be better if it didn't stall.

How can you argue that?

 

[<tuffty/>]

I am running the madmax valve in the push pull way bill and still get flutter in low rpm/speeds.

I think i may bin the madmax off and buy the forge, ill probly sell the madmax valve for what i got it for, plus the fore one is the largest one on the market so ts future proof really lol, plus it looks pretty haha.

Make sure you get a yellow spring and a shim mate... SS valves normally come with a red spring... get a yellow and a green and see which of the two gives best results.. I am using a yellow...

<tuffty/>

 

[jezzy]

read my first post correctly. (or so they say)
So you are wrong.
I dont get the flutter, i have not crushed my valve,(im not running crazy boost)

And all these people are wrong Fourtitude.com - Let's talk Diverter Valves

 

[jezzy]

the best advice for S3 diverter is stock or so they say

 

[Dani_B19]

Cheers PT, ive got loads of springs and shims from all the past forge valves haha.

Also does bill weld alli? I need a 40mm connector weldin onto a 63mm joiner!

 

[16Klappe]

read my first post correctly. (or so they say)
So you are wrong.
I dont get the flutter, i have not crushed my valve,(im not running crazy boost)

And all these people are wrong Fourtitude.com - Let's talk Diverter Valves

You said in your first post that the fluttering sound is normal (or so they say), which may well be correct. But it isn't right and would be better if it didn't flutter.

You made a brilliant point earlier about how some people believe everything they read, now here you are quoting people from the internet who are wrong and using them to validate your argument.

Choose a side of the fence and stick on it please.

For me, OEM>all on a stock turbo.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Cheers PT, ive got loads of springs and shims from all the past forge valves haha.

Also does bill weld alli? I need a 40mm connector weldin onto a 63mm joiner!

Dude!!!... do bears crap in the wood??? he is the TIG master of ali welding... he has welded all my ali stuff... where have you been!! LOL

<tuffty/>

 

[jezzy]

And you know they are wrong because?

A) you have personally tested this valve and found compressor stall?
or
B) because they have admitted they are wrong and all there turbos have blown from compressor stall?

And yes i agree with you on oem diverter