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W3STY's Progress Thread

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Westy, May 9, 2011.

?

What colour S3 Avus for the Track?

  1. Porsche Guards Red

    35 vote(s)
    54.7%
  2. Kawasaki Green

    29 vote(s)
    45.3%
  1. Rosso TT
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    Rosso TT Member

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    [Apr 25, 2012]
    Are you using a boost gauge to dial the WMI in?
    Don't trust the numbers printed on the controller, i was experiencing the same power dip and found out WIM kicked in at about 2 psi of boost when on the controller the potenziometer was set at 7 psi.
    Now kicks in at 6 psi and i don't feel the power dip , i'll try to post some logs that i took back to back with and without WMI.
  2. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Apr 25, 2012]
    Yeah i'm using my boost gauge. Gauge says it's coming in at 11psi and AEM controller dial is at 12psi on the 1st wheel. 2nd wheel is currently wound as high as possible to stop it pumping at full blast at the moment.
  3. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 1, 2012]
    Very successful day today. Dropped my car off this morning to a VAG specialist near me as I needed to get my tracking sorted after droping the subframe during my engine rebuild. At the same time I asked them to change my inner CV boot as my CV boot tool has broken after 1 use!!!

    So with the car now able to go straight and feeling tight I decided i'd do some VCDS data logging for the first time since the rebuild.

    So set off with my trusty co pilot Tam manning the laptop and keeping an eye on data while I kept my eye on the road ;)

    First up was a run as the car was to see how she was performing and to also try and figure out why my WMI was causing the car to hesitate when it came in.

    My revo stage2 settings were boost 7 (about 20psi) and timing 5, which is how it left Bill's in January when it made 275bhp and 307lbft. I did all my logs in 3rd gear from 2k - redline where road and traffic permitted. Anyway I could feel the car hesitating when WMI came in so we looked at the data to see if anything stood out:

    [​IMG]

    Nice g/s reading of 228 (285bhp on the MAF calculation) and some light retardation but nothing major. I've also added the sum for EFR on the far right of each spreadsheet so I can see how the fuelling is.

    So none the wiser, we disconnected the WMI pump and set off again to see if there was any difference:

    [​IMG]

    Pretty much the same story, g/s of 229 and some minor retardation.

    I plugged the WMI back in and decided to bring it in full blast at 12psi. This solved the issue. The car must have been holding back because it didn't have enough WMI and so was trying to go then hesitating. It feels much smoother and stronger now.

    With the WMI now sorted, I wanted to see what sort of AITs and EGTs I was getting. The ambient temp was 14.5 degrees Celsius.

    [​IMG]

    As you can see the AITs are nice, ranging from 6 - 10 degrees above ambient on boost. The EGTs weren't too bad until full chat when I did see some nasty figures of 960 degrees :sadlike:

    Next we decided to fiddle with the revo settings. I did manage 1 run at Bill's with the boost at 8 (about 25psi) and the timing dropped down to 4 and it put out the same bhp but 329lbft which was pretty staggering. At the time I had standard rods so I asked Bill to put it back down to 20psi.

    Went and did a run like this:

    [​IMG]

    for an extra 5psi I got 1 extra g/s of airflow and hotter EGTs. Also the WMI hesitation was back. I'm using the smallest nozzle and it obviously wasn't up to the job of 25psi whereas it was more comfortable at 20psi. The car felt faster and stronger with timing on 5 and boost on 7 so we reverted it back.

    The turbo clearly cant flow any more the 230g/s so there's no real point in me running the boost any higher then 20psi.

    I think I've got my baseline to start playing with the ignition timing in unisettings now so I'm just after some advice and guidance from Bill, Tuffty, Welly etc as to where to begin. I'm assuming the fuelling looks ok to everyone? I thought it might be a touch lean on boost but nothing major.

    Anyway I look forward to some responses.
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
  4. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [May 1, 2012]
    Ooooo the fun begins ;)

    Will have a proper look at logs when on laptop although don't know much but will have a browse....may learn something lol
  5. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 1, 2012]
    It's a great learning curve mate. I get to combine my career of being an IT technician and my love of cars all in one go ;)

    I am looking forward to playing with the timing side of things now to get some more poke into the map. Think it's time I found a methanol dealer too :beerchug:
  6. Dan-Jnr
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    Dan-Jnr Well-Known Member

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    [May 1, 2012]
    Nice figures. I too work in IT and find all this interesting information.
  7. Sam_
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    Sam_ Down under

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    [May 1, 2012]
  8. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Sounding awesome dude, must feel amazing letting all that torque rip and not having to worry about it at all!

    I did what Stacey suggested for Meth, ebay search by distance, and came up with a guy near Dad who's going us 50L in containers for £37 :)
  9. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Yeah nothing to worry about now but I want a little more action from it.

    I'll try the meth search. It'll probably come up with the same guy Stacey uses as he's only about 15 miles from me.
  10. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [May 2, 2012]
    I was getting worried when I couldn't find anywhere sensibly priced in a sensible distance of home or work, then tried a search from Dads address and one popped up 5 miles away :) job done.

    Interesting news about the meth killing things when on low, shows that there's more to think about I think.

    At first you thought it was the meth killing it, so you turned it DOWN thinking that'd solve the problem, when infact it made it worse! haha. Can you now feel any difference with meth on / meth off? What boost is it starting pumping at now? I'm hoping to have mine on this weekend if it arrives in time.
  11. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Meth was only set to come in at half pump at 12 PSI and it wasn't enough. I think the ECU was recognising the meth as it came in then there wasn't enough for the airflow so it held back. It now comes in at full pump at 12 PSI and there's no hesitation at all now.

    Also interestingly is that the smallest nozzle is maxed out somewhere in between 20-25psi.


    This is 10 miles from me, is this stuff ok?:

    METHANOL FOR BIODIESEL PRODUCTION- 99.9% PURE 20 LITRES | eBay
  12. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [May 2, 2012]
    where have you got the lower setting at now then? Have you wound it right back to 5psi starting pump?
  13. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 2, 2012]
    My first response is that I see you changed your MAF calculation from what it said originally.... lol.

    Just had a quick look at the logs above, healthy airflow, knocks look fine, but looking a bit on the rich side fuelling wise in places across the logs. The last log being the worst, but I suspect it was hot by then and that was EGT protection fuelling.

    Other than that dude, happy days.

    Ignore airflow calc for power, once you start getting timing advance on board, the air flow becomes useless as it doesn't take into account additional power from timing advance.
  14. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Nah I've left it at 12psi but because the full pump comes in then it overrides the half pump feature. It's working so I'm happy. I did try half pump lower down but you have no idea how annoying it is when the green LED is lighting up at 6PSI lol
  15. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Looks good - if you're going then let me know because I'll have some as well :)
  16. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
    lol I was hoping nobody had spotted that. My first calculation was divided by 0.7 not 0.8 so I got a result of 325bhp! I thought it was a touch optimistic.

    My last log file above was with the boost at 25psi and it was also my 7th run of the evening with only a small petrol fillup break in between.

    Are you advising that I should really wait till I get to Bill's to ensure fuelling is good before I start playing with timing in unisettings?
  17. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Vcds is very restrictive as a logger as you can see it Max's out at. 191.7 load and it has a low sample rate, if you want to do some proper logging I suggest you look at me7 logger ( it's free ) , it's far more accurate you can log multiple variables at once . Ie 20+ and you Canute ecu plot to give excellent graphs of the info very easily. like this
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
  18. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Exactly. The dyno is a solid environment for testing. You can monitor fuelling, boost and all these other important aspects of running on the fly, as opposed to having to review them afterwards.

    You can quickly and easily test the differences that additions or subtractions to timing etc makes.

    Road logging is nowhere near as good for this sort of work as the dyno IMO.
  19. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Dude, those graphs rock!! lol.

    Not something I have used as on a maxxed MAF non wideband car, road logging isn't that helpful if I'm honest.
  20. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Ok, I need to get a date booked in with Bill. :beerchug:
  21. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Let me know when.
  22. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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  23. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 2, 2012]
  24. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
  25. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 2, 2012]
    That means they are being asked to do 36% over what they are capable of flowing, GULP !!!
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  26. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Could that be why it seems to run better when using a heavy meth setting?
  27. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Oh great! Just when I can see light at the end of the modding tunnel and someone switches off the lights!

    So what injectors do people recommend and am I drifting towards custom map territory or is it something that can be tweaked in unisettings?
  28. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 2, 2012]
    I've just updated that sheet to turn red when >100% duty cycle..

    Injectors should'nt be operating >90 duty cycle ideally, and obviously >100% open is'nt actually possible.. open is open.. they only have a finite amount of time to squirt in the fuel.

    Options to improve this are a 3.5 or 4bar fpr (so long as fuel pump is up to it and not old and tired)
    I'm not sure how the revo will accomodate the additional fixed fuel pressure, as on cruise and idle it will see increased fuel, and adapt it back out, but when on wot... this adapted out amount may still seem like its working as before and be of no help... Hmmm. Need to think what would be occuring. ECU is programmed to know it has an injector size of 386cc....

    log block 001 as well as 031 and 118 next time.. we will see how its coping on adding its fuel.
  29. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Cheers for the info Bill. The fuel pump is brand new, was only fitted last year. I'll try and get that log done tonight so I know what I need to start saving up for!
  30. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Oh dear matey I'm sure something will be able to get sorted

    But if you do have to change injectors and go for a custom map then will it be "late night hybridising mechanics" lol ;)
  31. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 2, 2012]
    to get the k04 to hold more... top end, I suspect a stiffer actuator will be requried to make the difference. Backpressure in the hotside will be pretty high.. so I can easily imagine the wg could be pushed open slightly, when you think its closed. Not a bolt on without also increasing any spike eariler on also.. (without software of mbc in parallel intervention)

    I may get the opportunity to do some playing on an LCR with similar setup sometime soon, so we can see what the stock k04 can hold up..
  32. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
    I was only trying to see what a K04 can do. If I have to get bigger injectors, a stiffer actuator, and custom map I might as well leave the car as it is and maybe go big turbo in the future. I don't see the point in spending more and more just for another 25bhp :(
  33. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Bill surely I won't need a stiffer actuator if I'm maxing the K04 flow at 21psi is there any need for me to try and get otto hold more boost?
  34. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Sorry if you've read or seen this but here's an AGU at R-tech, similar setup with just over 300.. obviously agu is slightly higher compressor but that 440 injectors and a yellow spring actuator.

    I can only comment from my build, but the stock actuator really is pretty **** at holding the pressure back, and definately blows open under high pressure as Bill said. I wouldn't be suprised that it needs beefing up.
  35. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
    It's just a shame I didn't know that so I could have sorted it when the engine was out the car at Easter :(

    When you say "agu is slightly higher compressor" what do you mean?
  36. badger5
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    [May 2, 2012]
    boost is a function of compressor speed, which is a function of turbine speed, which is a function of how much air passes past the turbine wheel (and not leaking out the wg)

    what you dont know is whether the wg is being pushed open, which I believe it will be.... hence... 21psi + leak thru wg.. If it is leaking by, and I know enough about these k04's and hyrbids now that the manifold pressure is very high, and stock 5psi actuator does not hold the wg shut.

    The question is really to "really" max out a k04, then you would want to keep the wg shut, and obviously fuel it appropriately... You are'nt going physically lean from the logs, so no drama's there, but it shows the limit of injector duty cycle (IDC) and stage 2 k04 cars...

    If you want to max it out as far as max'd as far as revo settings will allow, and some uni-settings as required thats fine, but it different to what I would call max'd out.. As Dan says, niki has got a few k04 cars >300bhp, but they were with more than just map tweaks and completely flat out to achieve it.

    A simple additional external spring could be employed as a simple test to confirm wg being pushed open and its effect on holding top end boost/power..

    Its all depending on how far you want to go.. You have the rods for peace of mind, a new healthy k04 turbo, wmi etc.. so most of the ingredients... a stiffer fpr for more fuel, and stiffer actuator could make the difference, but its down to what you are wanting to achieve..

    see what the logs show I suggested.. We can see how hard the lambda is adjusting to try and achieve fuelling.. >100% IDC is'nt ideal tho of course.
  37. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [May 2, 2012]
    For a point of reference motor bike exhaust springs are ideal for this as they have long ends to them which can be bent to attach over the wastegate arm and then hooked over the actuator itself. And from a good shop can be bought in varying lengths and strengths to suit.
  38. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Thanks for that explanation bill.

    I just want to see the max from the revo stage 2 and some unisettings tweaks. I got the rods, large port head, and wmi installed because I do plan on going BT in the future but if I start ploughing too much more into the K04 build it'll just be dead money.

    Can you explain to me how a 4 bar FPR will help? Will I not need larger injectors too as they are bein asked to work well beyond their means?
  39. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [May 2, 2012]
    it wont because you'l have me to sell things too :)

    4bar reg will obv increase the pressure which in turn means the injectors will flow more, for e.g the fuel at 4 bar might up the injectors to 440cc which might be what you need.
    but then you have extra strain on your fuel pump at 4 bar.
    plus, its a gamble if it will be enough with enough headroom on inj duty.
  40. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    [May 2, 2012]
    Gay^ should post quicker and stop posting inbetween cooking lol

    Think the increase is 15% over what you are now so in theory your standard injectors are 386cc so added 15% would make them 433cc. I could be wrong I'm just trying to remember back to what was once explained on the forum ages ago about the difference between 3 and 4bar regs.

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