To Chip..

Why tell them? just for chip? if you had an accident doubt if they would look, its not like big wheels etc, and if like me your car was bought 2nd hand if anyone did find out /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gifyou can just say 'Oh its been like that since I owned it I thought they all went like that etc etc' /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
Sadly ignorance is no defence in a court of law, which is where your claim may end up if your insurers are offended.
I hate to be the downer, my insurers are none the wiser to my mods except the wheels, but if you are one of lifes worriers then inform them! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
Also helps to have a car not known for being a fast one, eg a diesel, preferably old etc, cos no-one thinks to look.
(They just get dragged to the scrapyard!)
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Yeah its a decision - tell the insurers or not.... I don't think the extra in insurance is all that much (although I haven't checked)...
 
As it is I think I pay about £750 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif for me and mrs richyboy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif A3t full protected no claims £150 excess gonna shop around this year though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Good god that makes me feel old!
My quotes for similar cars are way less!
Do you have points, live in car crime capital, crash on a regular basis?
It would appear that I have been well behaved for far far to long!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
No points, no offences, no accidents or claims in the last 3 years, was living in Windsor, 27 year old single female......

And they were the cheapest quotes from Elephant! Diamond wouldn't even touch me for the Impreza !
 
****** Hell Jo,

That seems very expensive, I pay £690 fully comp with protected NCD etc and i have a voluntary excess of £500. with Direct Line.

28, male, clean licence (at the mo), no claims etc.

Jon.
 
Lol, it was one of the reasons that I stayed in the company car scheme! The tax bill might be large, but not all that much larger than the insurance bill per annum !
 
You should all ount yourselves lucky! my A3 1.8T is costing me £2200 fully comp!! but i am only 19, and is my first year on my own insurance.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Rich B
 
My 1.8 sport is only £408 comp - what a difference a turbo can make if you 'aint got one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I was on company insurance till last Novenmber when I bought my car. But the insurance honoured my 6 years of no claims with my old company so I have full NC.
 
audi upgrades
My personal view for what it's worth /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Leccy tuning ( Electric for you none Northerners /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif) or basic "chip" tuning is fundamentally flawed for several reasons without even going into "eeee I haven't told my insurance company - will I get stabbed on a dark night?"

BTW this applies to all Leccy tuners - not just the guys in this episode but applies to switchable and non-switchable, in your ECU's face or up it **** - no change.

Also - forgive me for saying so (before I blow off) what type of Audi we talking about? - seems a bit vague, and if we are all to learn from it, needs to be specified as it is specific to A/3/4/RS models /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif er missus.

From my experience - S3/S4/RS4 it's quite simple. You take a "chance" on a Leccy Tuner, bearing in mind they don't support their claims with a Rolling Road plot of YOUR car at the time, but produce, from what I have heard/partly experienced, a max boost readout, be it 1bar to 1.8bar /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif, to hopefully take your money and make you go away /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif If more safe power was available just the Leccy way, wouldn't have Audi given you that?

Maybe the car feels faster, but is it? - I have personally seen not one RR plot for one of these conversions, and hey, I know what I'm talking about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Please could someone put this little ******* to bed once and for all and tell me my girlfriend's S3 will benefit, or detonate /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif she wants one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif again (*******)

BTW does this resemble overclocking a PC to anyone?

Once this is established, then we can talk about the stuff that keeps you're engine going at these boost figures ie. freeflow exhausts, sport cats, downpipes, hybrid K03,04/16's, and rolling road engine maps (the real figures that show what's truly going on).

Please forgive my frankness (and possibly some of my language /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif) but it's about time you guys found out the facts - GOOD or BAD or INDIFFERENT.

So whose got a plot then? (just Leccy tuning for now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Andiroo

BTW sorry to crash in like this but this subject really does light all my candles at both ends - if you know what I mean /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

BTW BTW I curently pay an extra £160 per year for an extra 95bhp on an RS4 - doesn't make sense not to tell them /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif
 
Agh confoooseedd ! Leccy tuning? Does that mean the stuff that APR, AmD, Superchips, Revo etc. do? Or are these Remaps ?

As opposed to exhaust etc.?

If so, then I have seen RR outputs of an S3 pre and post chipping and the maps are different - I will ask if they can be scanned in when I see the owner.

Or I am just confused (yes it happens easily and often !!!!)

I am learning something every day (and yes it does remind me of overclocking a PC now you mention it !!)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Andiroo said:
My personal view for what it's worth /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Leccy tuning ( Electric for you none Northerners /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif) or basic "chip" tuning is fundamentally flawed for several reasons without even going into "eeee I haven't told my insurance company - will I get stabbed on a dark night?"

BTW this applies to all Leccy tuners - not just the guys in this episode but applies to switchable and non-switchable, in your ECU's face or up it **** - no change.

Also - forgive me for saying so (before I blow off) what type of Audi we talking about? - seems a bit vague, and if we are all to learn from it, needs to be specified as it is specific to A/3/4/RS models /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif er missus.

From my experience - S3/S4/RS4 it's quite simple. You take a "chance" on a Leccy Tuner, bearing in mind they don't support their claims with a Rolling Road plot of YOUR car at the time, but produce, from what I have heard/partly experienced, a max boost readout, be it 1bar to 1.8bar /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif, to hopefully take your money and make you go away /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif If more safe power was available just the Leccy way, wouldn't have Audi given you that?

Maybe the car feels faster, but is it? - I have personally seen not one RR plot for one of these conversions, and hey, I know what I'm talking about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Please could someone put this little ******* to bed once and for all and tell me my girlfriend's S3 will benefit, or detonate /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif she wants one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif again (*******)

BTW does this resemble overclocking a PC to anyone?

Once this is established, then we can talk about the stuff that keeps you're engine going at these boost figures ie. freeflow exhausts, sport cats, downpipes, hybrid K03,04/16's, and rolling road engine maps (the real figures that show what's truly going on).

Please forgive my frankness (and possibly some of my language /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif) but it's about time you guys found out the facts - GOOD or BAD or INDIFFERENT.

So whose got a plot then? (just Leccy tuning for now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Andiroo

BTW sorry to crash in like this but this subject really does light all my candles at both ends - if you know what I mean /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

BTW BTW I curently pay an extra £160 per year for an extra 95bhp on an RS4 - doesn't make sense not to tell them /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite sure what you''re getting at but......XXX1.8T had his A3T 'chipped'so to speak by Oettinger, which here in Holland and Germany is supplied by Audi dealers, he then took it on the rolling road with marked improvements over the claims, see the link;
http://www.audi-sport.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=a3s3&Number=6528&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

RichA3Turbo, also had a similar story to tell now he has his chipped with AmD (I think).

For the A3T the gains are massive torque and power, so how this can be flawed I'm confused? And it's so flawed that the Audi dealers across here allow you to order a brand new car with Oettinger chip?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

JPR, you got any comments on Leccy tuning being flawed?
 
OK I see we are talking predominantly about A3 1.8T's, so thanks for that Gambba /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

My point is that this post started off on ECU tuning only
- with no mention of additional tuning, this is why it is flawed. Increased boost and fuelling is fine as long as you take into account other issues like exhausts for instance.

I notice that XXX has the Oettinger chip AND exhaust, and this is fine - and works dandy, but again my point asked for someone who just has a chip and nothing else /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif this, in my opinion is where the problem lies. Are Audi supplying cars with just the Oettinger chip?

People are asking advice on this forum, as whether to chip or not, and they need to be made aware that just chipping (with no thought about increased exhaust flow and heat) does not work within the tolerances the standard engine/turbo/compressor/wastegate are designed for, and at some stage damage could occur.

For instance, to run higher boost, some ECU "only" tuners fit a boost controller that fools the wastegate actuator into thinking it should remain closed when it should be open, and therefore increased boost is held for longer, with possible damaging consequences, as the ancillary engine items are not designed to handle it.

Just my opinion that's all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Andiroo

 
Again you've missed my point mate /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

It is not so much maximising power and torque potential (which I agree some can do), but highlighting the mechanical problems associated with having just a "chip" and nothing else.

Adding other ancilliary parts doesn't just maximise power, but also reduces any unnecessary stresses in the turbo cycle /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Andiroo
 
Is that northern mungral mouthing-off again! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hi Andy, good to have you on here. 'Bout time tho mate, were've ya been? Hibernating?

Going back to the thread....

I think I understand what Andy is saying. Although initially I was confused too. But basically, performance gains (i.e. increase in bhp and torque) can achieved by chipping alone (i.e. remapping ecu), BUT tuners don't make you aware of the extra stresses that this will put on the internal engine components and other components, e.g. turbo, clutch. They also may not make you aware of the importance of extra cooling (larger intercooler) and exhaust gas flow (free flow exhaust). Am I right Andy?

AL

 
I see what you are saying, and i think that anyone in their right mind must know that if you increase your engines power by x% then it stands to reason that the engines/turbo's/clutch/gearbox etc life expectancy is more than likely going to be reduced by X%. I have an S4, which AMD chipped and fitted a miltec exhaust (not the full exhaust with the cats) so the exhaust really isn't going to have much effect on reducing back pressure as it is replacing the cats that makes the big difference. My power went from 265bhp up to 340bhp in round figures and the torque was upped to 410ftlb, quite an increase over standard ( i have got the RR plot somewhere). I have no doubt in my mind that if i hammer the car around all the time, my turbo's will go bang fairly quickly as they are no doubt working beyond their designed capabilities. Also the engine is under much more stress so that will also have a shortened life, but if it makes 130000 miles instead of 160000miles that is fine by me, it will have been well worth it. Also in the height of summer when we have hot days (laugh laugh), if you where to put the car on a track I would think it highly likely I would experience detonation, due to the excess heat build up from the turbos working outside their designed efficiency map.

The way i always think of it is that the car manufacturer...audi in this case produce an engine that is capable of making say 400bhp, they then detune it to say 300bhp so that it reduces the stress levels greatly, thus increasing the lifespan and reliability of the engine. Along comes Mr. Tuning company and fits a chip increasing the power to say 350bhp. This eats into the reliability cushion that Audi have built into the engine, thus it will not perhaps last as long and you might have the odd problem along the way...turbo's, clutch etc. If you then upgrade other components i.e intercooler, turbos, injectors, clutch etc you are then clawing back the reliability and lifespan that you lost in the first place.

Of course this could be complete and utter bo**ocks, as i am not an engineer, but it is just the way i see it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
Spot on mate /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Just been busy with work and getting the car finished, sorry i haven't been in touch /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Andiroo
 
Hey Tweaky, think you've got a good few points there mate /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

You could indeed have a buffer that Audi have put in intentionally - just waiting there to be tapped into. I know the RS4 and RS6 were built with more power and then detuned for launch.

Let's just hope the "chip only" tuners that we know understand how to get it back safely - coz I know some others that don't /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Andiroo

 
Ok now I get what you driving at, and would agree that the Tuners probably do not inform customers of the above, but I would hope that there are very few people that don't realise that tuning any engine will in some way influence component life.

I would also expect the A3T engine is more than capable of being tuned without to many adverse affects, as the basic block does have from Audi a possibility of 225bhp.

I get you're drift on the way that Tuners achieve the performance figures, as I've heard some chip issues on fuelling i.e. detonation (knock) I think from GIAC in the US.
 
I think Andy's point here (once you decipher all the Norvern crap /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif) is that changing an engine map (either through a chip change or an EPROM re-flash) in isolation can lead to problems.

An engine works by flow - flow or air and fuel (controlled by an ECU), detonated then flow of exhaust out. If you change one aspect of that process then it will have a knock on affect to the others. That knock on effect can be minor or adjusted by use of a rolling road but makes sense to adjust other areas of the process at the same time.

My bugbear with chip and ECU changes is this concept that its simply plug and play and off you go - there is no way you can tell whether your air/fuel mixture is correct without a proper RR test. You run it too lean then the engine wil explode - pure and simple.
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ....... at least I don't drink shandy thru a straw /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

But seriously, that is the point I've been trying (badly) to make.

Andiroo
 
Agreed Thorney - without proper testing then tweaking a few settings can have a follow-on impact on other things.

But surely if you go to someone who tests your car on a RR before and after the re-map, and measures the outputs etc. then you are as safe as you can be?
 
Andy has hit on another point...

You've got ( for arguements sake ) a A3 1.8T. You want a "chip" or remap ( or Andy puts it a "leccy tuning" upgrade ).

The currently offered upgrades fall into two categories - generic solutions and remaps.

Generic Solution
Superchips, Revo, MTM, ABT and I believe APR. These are a "one fits all" kind of thing, the program that is downloaded into our A3 1.8T is exactly the same as the next owner will get. Although there is a gain from fitting this type of upgrade its not always the most successful way. I read on the TT Forum about a car having a Revo fitted, the results weren't exactly impressive so the fitter made several adjustments before getting a figure of 262bhp. For whatever reason the stock Revo program didn't suit that car. The way they found the gains were not as expected was by doing before/after rolling road runs. Now, what if the tuner who fits it doesn't have a rolling road ? What would the hapless TT owner paid his £500 for ? 20bhp ? 30bhp ? we don't know.
From what I understand all revo dealers will eventually have software to alter each individual car - should they wish to, this does not mean that they will do so!
Revo & APR go one step further by allowing the driver to change settings ( within certain boundaries ) - winding these settings to maximum doesn't mean your car will perform better! in fact performance could be worse thanks to detonation ( and therefore ignition ****** ).
The point is that whilst a generic olution is better than stock its certainly nowhere near the optimum...

Remaps
AmD, Ottienger, Jabbasport - In this case rather than fit a generic program each car has a program made for it, this is done by running the car on the rolling road and adjusting the fuelling and ignition to suit that individual car. This is good, because every engine and every turbo is slightly different, and the wear and tear on each engine is different. It can also mean that flat spots can be ironed out, with the tuner spending time specifically on certain areas to get rid of them. The generic solution cannot cater for this situation and in some cases can even create flat spots on certain engines. Another big advantage of a remap is that it can take into account mods you've made - exhaust, downpipes, cams, turbo etc. So what are the disadvantages of remapping the motronic system ? Well, it costs more.. (but then you may get a better result, this however is not garaunteed (sp?) ) You can't change back to the facotry system ( as you can with Revo ), but lets be honest how often would you really do this ?
The other disadvantage is that you are still limited by the motronic system and the way it works. If you read my post "ECUs and all that stuff" we know we have two limitations in the knock sensor and MAF. This is not to say that the results wont be good, on the whole they are quite impressive ( from dyno results I've seen ).. but they *could* be better...

So, lets go back to our 1.8T owner.. he wants to seriously tune the car, but funds are limited - this month a remap, next month he'd get an exhaust, month after downpipes, etc.. Eventually he will upgrade the engine internals to take the torque/power he wants. Lets say he has a target of 350bhp & 330lb/ft The car isn't a quattro, so traction is going to be a problem when the target is reached ( or before! )

The best option for our 1.8T owner will be a mappable engine management system. This allows total freedom as far as what the engine can do, we can remove the MAF and knock sensor limitations, we can also use the MAP sensor to use as our load reference.. this means the car could be mapped to come onto boost earlier ( complicated to explain ) and we'd certainly have a much more aggressive torque curve ( i.e. it'd pull very hard ). By playing around with the boost control we could also sustain the boost through the rev range rather than it dying off at higher revs. The program ( or map as its known ) can be adjusted with each modification made. Our 1.8T could buy a ECU that has traction control capabilities, and if he is a regular on the drag strip an ECU with launch control would be nice ( this is a process whereby the rpm is articifically restricted and synchronised with wheel speed, the aim is to prevent excessive wheel spin, therefore allowing the car to accelerate from rest very quickly ).

Disadvantages ? Cost. anything worth a look will be twice the cost of the standard Revo package/Superchip. Thats without mapping.

The moral of the story is you get what you pay for.
The only people I know that use mappable management on the 1.8T is Jabbasport. But thats not to say other outfits wont use mappable ecus


So now I've either confused or bored you all... what do you think ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif


Edit to include Jabbasport into remaps category.
 
Excellent post Crafty.

I have to say, I have been considering the REVO route, just for the program switching and no need to physically remove the chip etc., but you've made me think twice now.

I have also been reading the REVO posts on the other site, and quite few bods have gone for the SPS3 thing, where you can alter the timing and the boost. Apparently no instructions come with the thing, so people are running high boost programs, setting the timing to whatever "feels" about right, and some are getting pinking (detonation). Doesn't sound good to me (yet).

I suppose its V1.0, and as they say in the software industry (in which I work), never buy 1.0 software. Think I'll wait for the problems to be ironed out.

AL
 
Crafty,

I've just been comparing those graphs, the smoothness of those Jabbasport conversions is amazing. Why is that?

On saying that though, some of the REVO plots look good too. Wonder if its because those Seats are only fwd and not 4wd? The haldex unit can play about a bit when on the rollers and if the car isn't tied down hard enough, power can just keep switching fore/aft, making a smooth graph difficult to obtain.

[Edit] those little Ibiza's with 325 and 344 bhp must go like sh#t-of-a-stick!!!

AL
 
Well written Crafty, brings up valuable points that I think very few people that consider tuning actually know, and improved on what I already knew.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
 
Al: Detonation is *never* good /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. Avoid at all costs! Remember that an engine could actually be detonating and you wouldn't hear it! Det is not always audible.

I should of added Im not trying to diss anyones products but I think there are alot of misconceptions about chipping/remapping etc.

The graphs on the jabbasport conversions are so good (INHO) partly because the mappable system is giving them more control and partly because from what I've seen they can map quite well.

When I say a good graph I'm looking for smoothness of the line, zig zags or sharp turns/peaks/troughs mean it wont drive smoothly.
Also look at the torque and see how quickly it rises, other graphs are a bit more linear - although I would say its fair to assume that this is partly due to the turbo.
 

Crafty, do AMD really do a map based on your RR? Surely it takes more than just a run on the RR to tell whether a program will suit that car? I beleive the manufacturers change the ECU settings at various times in the cars life, even on the same model. It's a standard coding is it not?
i.e. If my ECU is faultly I'll get a replacement based on it's number. There will be no "tuning" to suit my car other than what the ECU does as part of it's normal learning for that engine. Extreme full remapping aside, why should tuning be different? Not taking the mick, genuinely interested /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

My A4 was chipped by Wetterauer, using a std. program obtained for that particular ECU coding. Could you explain how AMD is different. So far as I can tell, AMD do the same thing, but just use the RR as a check that you do have increased power and there's no obivous output problems before starting. Quite a valid and useful thing to do, don't get me wrong.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

 
Can I just point out that those Rolling Road plots seem to have been done at a dealer who supplys one of those chips, just pointing it out that's all.
 
Ok,

Generic programs are written on a particular car. The same program is then copied into all the other cars of the same type, its roughly correct so the cars run, we get more power and torque...

What AmD (and their ilk) do is a remap this means they write a program for each individual car they do, thus each program in each car is different, this is because each car is slightly different - for example maybe your car has a flat spot at 4300rpm, the generic chip doesn't know anything about this so it does nothing about it and the flat spot remains. If the car is remapped the tuner will be able to see the flat spot developing and pay special attention to this area to eradicate it (using a mappable ECU would allow you to do the same thing).
But we aren't just talking about flat spots here. Typically the generic chips are written using a very new car and engine, but 3-5years down the road the amount of wear in between engines will differ - what oil has been used, how its been treated etc. The generic chip cannot cater for this, but the remap can as the ECU will be adjusted to suit this car..

Al says above that some customers of generic solutions are finding they have detonation - I'm quite willing to bet that whichever car Revo did all their development on didn't denotate with the final program - so why are people seeing problems with det ? Because their engine differs from the one in the Revo development car.

The previous owner of my current car had a generic superchip fitted, but also had alot of other mods, so he actually got superchips to remap this car - i.e. a custom remap as AmD do on the Audis. I'm told the result was night & day, a far better drive. This is not to say that the program in my car now will work well in another vehicle!
 
It's me with the pinking Revo'd S3. To be fair, I've only driven it 3 times and haven't given Revo or me much of a chance to resolve it. The guys at Revo reckon it to be a faulty MAF sensor which is letting too much air in, so I've given it a clean. I think it has made a difference but I need to drive it more. Would I'd have noticed a bad MAF before it was chipped?
Anyway, I'm off to the Essex meet tonight which will give me a chance to try it again and I'll let you know the developments. When it's all sorted I will indeed be getting a RR session in to make sure all's OK and to get some figures.
It is ******* quick already /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cheers

Ben
 
I did! That's what prompted me to poke around a bit. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I remember years ago when I had my Corrado RR'd by Interpro and they advanced the timing to make it go better and it pinked. They said not to worry.
Anyone remember what a bad MAF is susposed to behave like?

 
I wouldn't want to run too long with it knocking, wonder how that'd go with your warranty?
Maybe once a couple of cars have gone bang from running too much ignition Audi might start to look for 'hidden' mods more proactively to avoid a payout /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

Thanks Crafty. Didn't realise AMD actually mapped to the indivual car and that each is different. Interesting.
 
Ben,
keep your boost down until this is sorted, drive it like a granny.

If the MAF is faulty it should flag the light, if it was dodgy it may not flag the light BUT you should of noticed it before, car feeling flat, not pulling well, not smooth etc.

If you bought the add on thing revert to your standard map.

Get to a dealer ( preferably after its been reverted to stock program ) and ask them to do some real time data reading and see what the reading from the MAF is, if the technician think its normal then I'd suggest its not the MAF at fault. Maybe a VAG-COM can monitor this ? not sure.

If you are really worried you can buy air fuel ratio meters or knock detection displays - not cheap but not too expensive.

Hope you get it sorted soon.
 
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