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Should I be fined?

Discussion in 'Detailing' started by MushroomMan, Apr 15, 2004.

  1. MushroomMan
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    MushroomMan Sucemabite

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    This is the scenario.

    It's rush hour (17:30) on one of the busiest junctions in Nottingham. I'm following slow moving traffic over the line as the lights change. Sure enough I'm flashed by the lights camera. Realising that I can't proceed across the road I reverse the car to a safe position as far back as possible.

    My defence is:

    1. I never crossed over the road i.e. "jumped the lights" which is what the camera light is there for.
    2. I reversed back to a safe position.
    3. It was rush hour and slow moving traffic which caused the problem in the first place.

    You are the jury. Should I be fined with 3 points deducted from my licence? Even if I submit this defence do you think they will try and fine me anyway (bureacratic British holier-than-thou jobsworth up-yer-arse justice?)
    #1
  2. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Golf Bygone said:
    You are the jury. Should I be fined with 3 points deducted from my licence?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No you shouldnt. If you carried on, then yeah sure...but as you didnt then no. Although if the camera didnt see yuou revferse across the line, then maybe its too late!?

    [ QUOTE ]
    (bureacratic British holier-than-thou jobsworth up-yer-arse justice?)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif
    #2
  3. neil.c
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    neil.c Senior

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    Red light cameras take two photos one to show that you crossed the line the other, 1 second later to show that you entered the junction, so if you haven't moved between the photo's there doesn't seem to be mutch to answer.

    Generally red light cameras are placed at junctions where vehicles are jumping the lights at or above the speed limit, so making the location an accident blackspot, but drivers probably run more red lights at peak times because traffic is moving slower so the perceived risk is lower.
    #3
  4. dermot
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    dermot Member

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    Sorry, but yes is the answer

    The general rule is that you should not cross the white line until you exit is completely clear

    This rule prevents gridlock, this is especially the case in slow moving traffic

    You jumped the lights once you crossed the white line and the lights were red or amber and you would have been able to stop in time and safely which would probably have been the case in your situation
    #4
  5. MushroomMan
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    MushroomMan Sucemabite

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Dermot said:
    Sorry, but yes is the answer

    The general rule is that you should not cross the white line until you exit is completely clear

    This rule prevents gridlock, this is especially the case in slow moving traffic

    You jumped the lights once you crossed the white line and the lights were red or amber and you would have been able to stop in time and safely which would probably have been the case in your situation

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So by this measure, should I receive 3 points and a fine exactly the same as someone who actually crossed the road with no intention of stopping or any regard for other road users and pedestrians. You say "the general rule" but what you mean is the absolute, indisputable rule from which there can be no exception. EVER.

    I guess I am thinking about the spirit of the law rather than the letter.

    My thought is that because I didn't jump the lights which, from a road safety point of view, is why the light cameras are there and because I reversed the vehicle back to a safe position, I should not receive the same punishment as someone who crossed the line entirely and carried on regardless of risk to others.

    Of course I have every confidence that the jobsworth in the Notts Traffic Divison will pursue the action as if there is no distinction to be made. Afterall, isn't that what we have all come to expect of our British justice and the over emphasis on revenue collection.
    #5
  6. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    Well you never know - I was up before the Magistrates for 101mph on the M40 about 3 weeks ago. I walked in expecting a ban, had left my car at home, made preparations at work etc., and walked out with 6 points and a 300 quid fine after presenting my defence.

    Now it's not that I "got away with it" cos 6 points is pretty bad, but at least I can afford to insure a car for the next 5 years!

    So you never know - is it a default "turns up in the post" fine/points or do you go to court?
    #6
  7. MushroomMan
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    MushroomMan Sucemabite

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    [ QUOTE ]
    audi girl said:
    Well you never know - I was up before the Magistrates for 101mph on the M40 about 3 weeks ago. I walked in expecting a ban, had left my car at home, made preparations at work etc., and walked out with 6 points and a 300 quid fine after presenting my defence.

    Now it's not that I "got away with it" cos 6 points is pretty bad, but at least I can afford to insure a car for the next 5 years!

    So you never know - is it a default "turns up in the post" fine/points or do you go to court?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's pretty impressive Jo. You must have obviously made a good impression. I'm not sure I would have had the same effect in the same situation although - if it comes to it - I definitely plan to appear in person. Afterall, given the specifics of this case I cannot see how they would give me the same punishment (3pts and a fine) as someone who actually jumped the lights. Maybe just a fine, which would probably be acceptable, but points, definitely not. I must remember to hold my tongue and not say anything derogatory... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif
    #7
  8. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    The advice i found most useful, was to go to the court early and listen to another case or 2/3. That way it's less intimidating as you know what to expect, who is who, when to stand up/sit down etc.!
    #8
  9. MushroomMan
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    MushroomMan Sucemabite

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    Jo they've sent me the photographic evidence which is totally inconclusive i.e. it shows me moving forward very slowly over the line but not the fact that I reversed back to a safe position. That came after the second flash. I'm probably fighting a losing battle and should take the £60 fine and 3 points rather than risk a court presided by a legal bigot who won't allow me to open my mouth because he/she has already made their mind up. That's my experience of so-called British justice sadly. So a case of bite the bullet. The potential downside is up to £1000 fine. BTW As.net's not very interesting right at the mo or maybe it's just me.
    #9
  10. bigvern
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    bigvern New Member

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    If It's not a box junction you'e every right to cross the white line,I'd fight that one,****!!!
    #10
  11. dermot
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    dermot Member

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    #11
  12. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    Golf Bygone - I found the Magistrates I was up in front of to be very understanding.

    The guy before me who had a barrister with him, however, was a different story - he got a 6 month ban (totting up).

    Little ole me on my first offence, shaking so much you could see it fron the back of the court room (according to my mate), with no barrister managed to talk out of a ban. The Magistrate was understanding, asked me questions without being intimidating or rude, and was pretty human!!

    Not saying they are all like that however...!
    #12
  13. Mutinyno9
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    Mutinyno9 Member

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    I am very unfamiliar with British law, whatis this "points" thing and how does it affect you?
    #13
  14. dermot
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    dermot Member

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    You can receive points for various driving offences, see link for Northern Ireland points

    http://www.biipb.org/biipb/committee/comma/a9408.htm

    You license is endorsed and if you reach 12 points you are disqualified from driving and have to resit your driving test

    Points drop off after certain time periods
    #14
  15. Mutinyno9
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    Mutinyno9 Member

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    By what the law says, you can up and purposely run someone over and kill them and put it in reverse and re-run over them and do this 3 or 4 times and only get the maximun points of 11? That doesn't seem right, i would think if you purposely killed someone and did in such a mannor that ou would have your liscense revoked or completely taken away, not to mention a fine and mental help.
    #15
  16. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    The points add up, if you get to 12 you get a 6 month ban (usually).

    They can also disqualify you for other things - like excessive speed, or running someone over !
    #16
  17. Mutinyno9
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    Mutinyno9 Member

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    I'm not too sure if i like that or not.

    Golf Bygone, i would just go to court and tell your side and hope for the best.
    #17
  18. MushroomMan
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    MushroomMan Sucemabite

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Audi_A4_Quattro said:
    By what the law says, you can up and purposely run someone over and kill them and put it in reverse and re-run over them and do this 3 or 4 times and only get the maximun points of 11? That doesn't seem right, i would think if you purposely killed someone and did in such a mannor that ou would have your liscense revoked or completely taken away, not to mention a fine and mental help.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Think you might also get done for murder as well, which kinda makes any points irrelevant really...
    #18
  19. JamS3
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    JamS3 Active Member

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    I don't think you will have much luck mate as mentioned before you should wait at the white line even on green if the road is busy ahead. Plus cameras will not go off if you just cross the white line as they change to red as everyone would get done. It is allowed to cross on amber to red if it is unsafe to stop or you are crossing the line as they change so if the camera has gone off it must have been on red already for a few seconds as they are not programmed to flash immediately when changing.

    It MAY be worth going to court to put forward your defence but be warned you may come off worse than if you just accept the ticket! The camera photo should display your speed as you cross so if you say you were in slow moving traffic then this would show and it would be a defence for you...

    Oh and dont worry about the maximum £1000 fine, this is just the top end of the scale. Burglary of a dwelling house carries a maximum of 14yrs prison but how often do the little shites get that at court!!
    #19
  20. dbm
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    dbm Member

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    The usual 'I am not a lawyer' applies, but when I was up for a potential ban, my lawyer told me that if you plead innocent and are then found guilty the penalty shouldn't be any higher than if you had pleaded guilty in the first place. See if you can get some free legal advice.

    Dan
    #20
  21. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    The penalty may not be but the fine will be - my fine was reduced from 500 to 300 for a guilty plea......
    #21
  22. 4SilverRings
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    4SilverRings Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Golf Bygone said:
    Jo they've sent me the photographic evidence which is totally inconclusive i.e. it shows me moving forward very slowly over the line but not the fact that I reversed back to a safe position. That came after the second flash. I'm probably fighting a losing battle and should take the £60 fine and 3 points rather than risk a court presided by a legal bigot who won't allow me to open my mouth because he/she has already made their mind up. That's my experience of so-called British justice sadly. So a case of bite the bullet. The potential downside is up to £1000 fine. BTW As.net's not very interesting right at the mo or maybe it's just me.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    God you've got the hump haven't you, worst case of teddy out of pram I've seen here. Why don't you do yourself a favour and get your ass off the PC and in front of a solicitor who will be able to advise you of the merits of you case. As to your comments of bigots, the only bigot here seems to be yourself as you are totally prejudiced towards those of your peers who will hear the case against you - in this instance, 3 ordinary persons like yourself called 'magistrates'! And as to 'British justice' - WRONG 'English justices' as the legal system of Scotland and Northern Ireland are separate to that of England and Wales. While your case has merits, presenting it and your prejudice towards answering the charge as displayed here, any Magistrate hearing it will have no sympathy with you and will probably come down very hard on you! IGNORANCE OF THE RULES OF THE ROAD ARE AVAILABLE TO ALL (Highway Code) IS NO EXCUSE - GO BUY ONE!

    If you've f*cked up and made an honest mistake, say so and accept what they say like an adult and quite greeten like a wee'n!
    #22
  23. MushroomMan
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    MushroomMan Sucemabite

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    [ QUOTE ]
    4SilverRings said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Golf Bygone said:
    Jo they've sent me the photographic evidence which is totally inconclusive i.e. it shows me moving forward very slowly over the line but not the fact that I reversed back to a safe position. That came after the second flash. I'm probably fighting a losing battle and should take the £60 fine and 3 points rather than risk a court presided by a legal bigot who won't allow me to open my mouth because he/she has already made their mind up. That's my experience of so-called British justice sadly. So a case of bite the bullet. The potential downside is up to £1000 fine. BTW As.net's not very interesting right at the mo or maybe it's just me.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    God you've got the hump haven't you, worst case of teddy out of pram I've seen here. Why don't you do yourself a favour and get your ass off the PC and in front of a solicitor who will be able to advise you of the merits of you case. As to your comments of bigots, the only bigot here seems to be yourself as you are totally prejudiced towards those of your peers who will hear the case against you - in this instance, 3 ordinary persons like yourself called 'magistrates'! And as to 'British justice' - WRONG 'English justices' as the legal system of Scotland and Northern Ireland are separate to that of England and Wales. While your case has merits, presenting it and your prejudice towards answering the charge as displayed here, any Magistrate hearing it will have no sympathy with you and will probably come down very hard on you! IGNORANCE OF THE RULES OF THE ROAD ARE AVAILABLE TO ALL (Highway Code) IS NO EXCUSE - GO BUY ONE!

    If you've f*cked up and made an honest mistake, say so and accept what they say like an adult and quite greeten like a wee'n!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I've only just read this smelly sporan jockstrap invested invective. Just goes to show that Hadrian was right when he built a wall to preserve the civilised world from the ignorance of the Picts and Celts. What have they ever done? A trail of military disasters led by upstart pretenders. Longshanks had the right idea, as did his grandson Edward III and his son again, the Black Prince. James I turned out to be a Spencer-cock-sucking-faggot and the best thing about Charles I was that the English beheaded him. I say slaughter all the spineless clans and send the inbred gatherings back to their miserable Highland hovels. Their seats of learning are dominated by English academics because the jocks lack the brains, they can't even build a national assembly without going five times over budget. Mind you, the best punishment I can think for them is that they are now subject to their own incompetent self-obsessed Government. Burns was an incomprehensible [censored] fart and, as for MacGonagal, the simple Dundee folk seem almost proud of their idiotic rhymster, but everything is relative and I suppose he must seem really quite clever in Tayside. The palaver is finished.
    #23
  24. 4SilverRings
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    [ QUOTE ]
    Golf Bygone said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    4SilverRings said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Golf Bygone said:
    Jo they've sent me the photographic evidence which is totally inconclusive i.e. it shows me moving forward very slowly over the line but not the fact that I reversed back to a safe position. That came after the second flash. I'm probably fighting a losing battle and should take the £60 fine and 3 points rather than risk a court presided by a legal bigot who won't allow me to open my mouth because he/she has already made their mind up. That's my experience of so-called British justice sadly. So a case of bite the bullet. The potential downside is up to £1000 fine. BTW As.net's not very interesting right at the mo or maybe it's just me.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    God you've got the hump haven't you, worst case of teddy out of pram I've seen here. Why don't you do yourself a favour and get your ass off the PC and in front of a solicitor who will be able to advise you of the merits of you case. As to your comments of bigots, the only bigot here seems to be yourself as you are totally prejudiced towards those of your peers who will hear the case against you - in this instance, 3 ordinary persons like yourself called 'magistrates'! And as to 'British justice' - WRONG 'English justices' as the legal system of Scotland and Northern Ireland are separate to that of England and Wales. While your case has merits, presenting it and your prejudice towards answering the charge as displayed here, any Magistrate hearing it will have no sympathy with you and will probably come down very hard on you! IGNORANCE OF THE RULES OF THE ROAD ARE AVAILABLE TO ALL (Highway Code) IS NO EXCUSE - GO BUY ONE!

    If you've f*cked up and made an honest mistake, say so and accept what they say like an adult and quite greeten like a wee'n!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I've only just read this smelly sporan jockstrap invested invective. Just goes to show that Hadrian was right when he built a wall to preserve the civilised world from the ignorance of the Picts and Celts. What have they ever done? A trail of military disasters led by upstart pretenders. Longshanks had the right idea, as did his grandson Edward III and his son again, the Black Prince. James I turned out to be a Spencer-cock-sucking-faggot and the best thing about Charles I was that the English beheaded him. I say slaughter all the spineless clans and send the inbred gatherings back to their miserable Highland hovels. Their seats of learning are dominated by English academics because the jocks lack the brains, they can't even build a national assembly without going five times over budget. Mind you, the best punishment I can think for them is that they are now subject to their own incompetent self-obsessed Government. Burns was an incomprehensible [censored] fart and, as for MacGonagal, the simple Dundee folk seem almost proud of their idiotic rhymster, but everything is relative and I suppose he must seem really quite clever in Tayside. The palaver is finished.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It must really gall you to have a Scottish Prime Minister and a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer (PM in waiting!) (you're all doomed, DOOMED!) But joking aside, you have a sense of humour and maybe have seen a little 'light' in the matter (but you forgot to mention that Geordies were genetically bred to keep the Scots out /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif )! So, big up respect!
    #24
  25. MushroomMan
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    MushroomMan Sucemabite

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    [ QUOTE ]
    4SilverRings said:
    It must really gall you to have a Scottish Prime Minister and a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer (PM in waiting!) (you're all doomed, DOOMED!) But joking aside, you have a sense of humour and maybe have seen a little 'light' in the matter (but you forgot to mention that Geordies were genetically bred to keep the Scots out /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif )! So, big up respect!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif They're both pretenders in their own way. Tony may have been educated at Fettes but he's really a nacissistic English ponce and Gordon may think he's got a chance at PM but he'll never get elected when it becomes evident how our massive taxes have been squandered on central government bureaucracy, anal retentive quango czars, over-paid NHS kidney bean counters, work-shy benefit-dependent white-trash, etc, he'll be out soon enough. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif
    #25
  26. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Fine words from the man in the dock!
    Is that your closing speech GB?
    I'm sure Judge Angus McSporran will be fair & lenient!
    #26
  27. ImolaS4
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    ImolaS4 Member

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    Okey dokey...
    I'm from the States and I have NO IDEA what you guys just said.
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
    Was that English?

    Just kidding!
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #27
  28. DAF
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    DAF Member

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    Iron Brew enough said. You can keep it jock. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif Good luck if you got to court mate.
    #28
  29. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    Anyone seen Golf Bygone?
    #29
  30. Just Plain Old
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    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

    Great stuff!! A bit more like this and AS.net will be 'buzzin'! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    In my, not to frequent, appearances before the beak(for motoring offences), I've found that those who pay solicitors/barristers vast sums of money to 'pontificate' on their behalf usually come off with a double 'whammy'. Many a time I,ve sat at the back of a Court, waiting for my turn,and listening to an overpaid, juiced up, 'learn'ed' member of our legal profession, spout total **** on behalf of his hapless client. Usually for the end result to be the same number of points, but a vastly higher fine, than someone who pleads guilty by post!
    #30

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