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Discussion in 'New A3/S3 (8V Chassis)' started by geefunk1978, Nov 4, 2013.
Good write up Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power
I guess it kinda coincides with what audi suggest by keeping the revs below 4k rpm. You will probably inadvertently do a few of these but they are hardly gonna tell everyone exactly what to do, as it will be quite confusing to the masses.
But remember long periods of run down in the same gear is just as important after the pull. Guys with s-tronic will have to do this in manual mode or the gear box will just shift up a gear or down a gear before you complete the full cycle.
Perfect. That's the key, early oil changes...
LOL, how does that work as the pistons aren't switch off. They are still going up and down at the same speed as the other two!!!
Yes I read it! And your link, and the link Silky-S3 has posted since, and I've read similar things before.
However, I still come back to my question which nobody has answered which is why, if this widely quoted advice is correct, have Audi engineers not come across it. And why Audi are deliberately quoting instructions in the handbook which will lose 10% of engine power and potentially cause significant oil consumption problems in the future, and are even instructing owners to go out of their way to achieve these negative things.
I would also add that the best advice for hand-built engines, race engines, etc. might well be different. But again, I'd follow the advice of whoever built the engine.
Its a good question, one which I suspect the answer has more to do with law suits than engine performance! Maybe they want to make sure people take their time getting used to the car, before giving it some?!
Audi say stay under 4k rpm. In the link I posted your doing high gear LOW rev pulls i.e in 4th gear from 1k to 4k revs and then let it run down in gear back to 1k revs and gradually build up to 5k rev pulls.
For obvious reasons Audi cant say to do this as 1. Its confusing to the average joe public and 2. Your probably gonna be breaking the speed limit.
I was just speaking to my old man who used to work with a world expert in piston technology. Granted it was 30 years ago but he distinctly remembers him saying that engines don't need much running in... And that was 30 years ago. Technology has come on a long way since then!
He said just use some common sense and don't rev the sh*t out of it whilst it's cold. Other than that it won't make much difference. He went on to explain why... Rate of expanding metals etc... But he lost me soon after, too advanced for this little brain of mine!
Audi also say not to tow and not to use full throttle whilst running in. Whether they're right or wrong in their advice, the handbook makes it pretty clear that they're telling owners to drive gently for the running in period for the long-term good of the engine, and not that they're telling owners to limit revs purely to keep speeds down and avoid crashing until they're used to the car.
That might be the key, but I'm not bothered about that. All I want is POWER!!!!
Rag it when it's cold (ever).
Drive it at constant revs for periods.
Do short journeys.
Change revs and gears often.
Drive it briskly.
Get it nice and warm.
No where did I say there running in method is there so that people can get used to the car. I think I've made pretty clear it's important to bed the rings in. I've given links so people know how to do this. You will exceed the speed limit doing it which is why audi don't say to do it, it's also a little confusing. There's plenty of engineering information to support this.
I will not be ragging it around that's for sure it will just be driven normally after the bedding in period and yes they will be the odd blast here and there.
Etto at the end of the day, people can make their own mind up on what they want to do.
Yes, but it is directly against the advice written elsewhere...
The problem is, I don't think anyone knows your background (apologies if I'm talking to one of the worlds leading experts on engines, but...) and just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is - especially when manufacturers and engine experts advise the opposite.
Run it in by the book, but don't when I come flying past you
Your self belief knows no bounds (plus I'll be driving a 184 diesel so what else are you going to do... )
Directly against??? No it isnt, you can do that method while still been under 4k revs (Audi's guidelines last time I checked) or did that part go over your head while writing your cocky response.
Anyway people can make there own minds up.
Low revs with high power is against written advice (did you read my link??).
Cocky response or not, the point still stands - you have 27 posts and we have no idea of your background, nor you mine (although for the avoidance of doubt, I am not claiming one way is better than the other).
When I get mine I will run it in as the handbook says. Purely for the reason that with modern engines you don't know exactly what data the manufacturer will log on the EMS and so I'd hate to take it back with a problem for them to have some wiggle room that I didn't break it in as they advised. They will use any reason they can not to carry out work under warrenty, I'm not going to give them a reason for free
I know what exactly what it logs (pretty much nothing), so does anyone with VCDS!
Look lads, nobody (not even the experts) have a clue how to do it...
I say just drive it as you normally would on the road, not like you would on a race track.
Everything in moderation!
Yes, but one person's driving style on the road is way different from another. Even on a race track massive differences exist.
I'm know what I'm doing. Everyone do what they want and be happy
Again it's not low revs with high power, power is made at the top end for a start. What you've written makes no sense your cocky ness seems to have got the better if you!
Putting high load on an engine and high power is completely different. High load happens lower down the rev range when your engines making peak torque, which is normally around 3-4k revs. What I've suggested is all still inline with Audis guidelines just goes a bit more in depth in bedding in those piston rings.
Anyway people can make there own mind up at the end of the day. This is what I'll be doing
Apologies... low revs - high load, not low revs - high power... Generally accelerating from 1k in 4th is likely to be under high load in the lower revs.
As you say, people can make their own mind up
Here is a useful link to confirm what's being recommended by RobH_S3. The logic seems to be sound and still within the 4k running in limit as per Audi. This will be how I will run in, prior to researching I would have just followed the guidelines given by the dealer/Audi:
Running in - Civinfo Wiki
That confirms my reading too - avoid low revs and high loads ("In one gear, accelerate hard from low-ish revs (but no too low to cause labouring) up to high-ish revs (but not screaming)" - but RobH's original link said specifically to do this:.
and from the link itself:
It is this specific I am questioning.... as that to me means accelerate when it is labouring (starting at 1k in 4th will surely be labouring) which I've seen in a few places to avoid at all costs.
Long periods of driving around labouring are definitely to be avoided but your literally gonna be labouring for about 1-2 seconds while the revs build up. Alternatively start from 1.5 or 2 revs use your imagination it's just an example of how to apply load onto the parts that matter. Remember long periods of off throttle is just as important though to cool the cylinder walls.
remeber this is a turbo car aswell and the turbo comes in at around 1.xx revs so pressure starts build up early on so labouring the car is actually pretty difficult. In an N/A car labouring the car is a lot easier.
Yes, that is exactly what I was going to do... just the problem I have is with the absolutes that are used...
As well as finding a suitable stretch of road I guess, at least that's what I'm thinking about.
my last cars have done >150k, a mildly modded golf gti mk2 (131,000 and still mint when sold), a heavily modded 170bhp Peugeot 205 1.9GTI (152,000 when sold and still fine and thrashed most days, "cause I was young") and a standard Peugeot 307xsi (current car and had from new, now 11 years old - 103,000 miles - mint condition and far better condition than most cars 5 years old - still ok touch wood)
Lots of misconceptions about running in.
Sadly too many people think running in is sticking below 4,000 rpm or whatever for the first 1000 miles then it's run in.
The ideal is throughout the first 1000 miles is to gradually increase engine speed and rate of acceleration, like stick at 3000 for the first 500 miles with the odd run a bit higher, then 500 to 600 miles no more than 4000 rpm with the odd higher blast, etc etc.
There are those who (for some good reasons) suggest that you dont have to run a modern engine in. But I'll always take the advice of the experts. Who are they? I hear you cry. Well who knows Audi cars better than the manufacurer, who has has the greatest interest in engine reliability? Those that stand to pay the warranty and lose reputation.
But hey it's you car, you've probably paid for it, or paying for it one way and another. So you can take the 'experts' advice or go your own way obviously knowing better. Me? I'll stick to the advice in the owners book.
I worked for 37 years in technical job for a multi national who made huge quantities of diesel engines, for on road and off road uses.
There are quite a number of honing systems with various bore patterns and they affect the need and amount of running in. No one expects to run in an industrial product so our hatching process and patterns reflected this. Our engines were expected to run at high idle out of the crate. Now all these so called experts dont have a clue what process and patterns VAG use in their engines, as the book says run it in that should give us all a clue?
Running in > Tips and Tricks > Audi Servicing > Audi Australia
link to audi's recommended running in of engine I posted on a previous thread if it helps anyone.
is Australian but apart from being upside down should be the same !
not really definitive though is it....?
not really, if Audi only give that advice, makes you think it doesn't make much difference within reason.
exactly. My current daily driver was caned from day one. Abused, treated with utter disrespect and it never burnt an ounce of oil, never missed a beat. Typical phenomenal Honda engineering.
Most Honda drivers around here rarely get out of second gear, even on pension day.
Well 1100 miles in checked the oil today and it's not used a drop! Booked in on the 17th to drop the oil .
what a hideously designed website
Sorry I don't agree with most in here, I've had a few new cars, 2 of them I pretty much thrashed from day 1 and whilst faster than similar cars I had nothing but mechanical problems long term, so on my 3rd car I ran it in properly for 1500 miles and never had a problem with the car in 72k miles and after going on the rolling road it made 20bhp more than book figures,Also I read that when Audi do their lab tests (mpg power and speed tests) they run a car in for 1800 miles nice and steady, they also say that this is why these figures change from car to car as every car is treated differently
You all spent a considerable wedge on your shiny new S3, so why would you not follow what the manufacturer tells you will improve the life and performance of the engine?
Do all these so called experts know more than the engine maker?
The need to run an engine in is based on many things, one of the most important is the honing method and pattern used in the bores. Industrial engines are designed to run at high idle from day one, they are produced differently, not necessarily with bigger clearances. I worked for one of the largest engine manufacturers for well over thirty years, so when I get my new motors I choose to follow what the experts say.
At the end of the day, you've probably paid for your S3 (or any other car) so it's your choice whether to listen to those that know or those that think they know!
As we used to say to our customers RTFB.