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Road Race: 2.0FSI v 2.0TDI

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by lilya, Jul 1, 2005.

  1. lilya
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    lilya Member

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    [Jul 1, 2005]
    Further to the What Cars Have U Raced? thread on the 8L page...

    Today, after hearing a lot of talk on this forum, I finally got my opportunity to see just what an A3 2.0TDI has to offer against a 2.0FSI.

    This was just what I've been waiting for - a clear dual carriageway and a 2.0TDI whose driver was in an obvious hurry. I was prepared to make a fool of my car and myself in the interest of research, but fortunately it was the TDI that was left with egg on its face.

    The stretch of road in question is approx. 1/2 mile long and is between two roundabouts. After the second roundabout the road becomes a single lane carriageway, so there's always a bit of a drag race to get to the second roundabout first.

    Anyway, as I approached the 1st roundabout the TDI (a sportback actually) went past me in the outer lane. He got slightly slowed down by cars turning right, so as we went around the first roundabout we were side by side at approx. the same speed (25ish mph). The drag race began (uphill if you please) as we rounded the transition from the roundabout to the straight, which was accompanied with plenty of flashing from my ESP light! It wasn't pretty, but by nearly red lining each gear up to fourth I was able to pull out a 1 1/2 to 2 car gap by the time we had to break and he had to 'tuck in' behind me for the next roundabout.

    Now, I don't condone racing on the road, but this was an opportunity not to be missed and I'm happy to tell you all that, on this occasion, a 2.0TDI was beaten hands down by its petrol engined equivalent. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/groovy.gif

    However, I would have to admit that I was impressed with the pace of the diesel and that I wouldn't have been able to keep a chipped TDI behind.
    #1
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  3. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Jul 1, 2005]
    I must say I'm surprised, I've owned the TDI for 18K miles and driven the FSI as a loner.

    Test speaks for itself though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    Kev.
    #2
  4. Mark_N
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    Mark_N Member

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    [Jul 2, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    The drag race began (uphill if you please)

    However, I would have to admit that I was impressed with the pace of the diesel and that I wouldn't have been able to keep a chipped TDI behind.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Uphill? And he still couldn't pull on you with all that torque. Either a **** driver or it was the 1.9.

    A car with (on paper) 10 bhp less and a lot more torque simply does not get left behind in the manner you're describing.

    You're damn right you wouldn't keep a chipped one behind, it would make a holy show of ya /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
    #3
  5. TDI-line
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    TDI-line Uber Post Whore

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    [Jul 2, 2005]
    So, basically a 1.9 tdi sportback going uphill weighing over 40 KG and the guy was probably very large, so add another 100 KG = /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #4
  6. lilya
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    lilya Member

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    [Jul 2, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Either a **** driver or it was the 1.9.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It said 2.0TDI on the boot lid /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #5
  7. brandona4
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    brandona4 Member

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    [Jul 2, 2005]
    As much as i can't dig diesels adamr, i struggle to see how a car with only 10bhp less and the same Toque power as a 3.2, could get shat on by a 2.0 FSI
    #6
  8. The Slug
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    The Slug Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 2, 2005]
    I'll give u a run for ya money!
    #7
  9. The Slug
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    The Slug Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 2, 2005]
    more like the guy probably wasnt even trying, lmfao sorry!!
    #8
  10. yak
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    yak Member

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    [Jul 2, 2005]
    It's not the torque, and Kevin, when comparing the acceleration with a diesel by keeping it to the best torque range, or using the maximum power, the latter wins in acceleration. Simple facts.

    As to 2,0TDI, of course it loses. Even if it's not the Sportback, the TDI itself weights more, and has less power. Equivalent TDI would have to have 158hp to be equal with the FSI on power/weight ratio.

    But hey, on butt dyno, TDI wins. That's pretty inaccurate way though, as clock usually disagrees.
    #9
  11. DaveS3Turbo
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    DaveS3Turbo Sepang Blue S3

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    [Jul 2, 2005]
    There is no WAY the 2.0 FSI can keep up or even beat a 2.0 TDI.

    From the facts of a 2.0 TDI it will produce around 156 BHP and 250 lb/ft torque. 0-60 will be down to approx 8.5.

    After driving both a FSI and TDI I can tell you now that the TDI was quicker even through the gears.

    Dave
    #10
  12. Mark_N
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    Mark_N Member

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    [Jul 3, 2005]
    Yak will you ever get a book - even from a library and learn how PD engines work.

    I'm sorry but if you can't even accept that a diesel is quicker up a hill (this used to /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif me off no end in my 1.8T 150bhp GTI) then there's just no talking to you.

    Your car is slow for what it is, it needs a turbo, build a bridge.
    #11
  13. Eeef
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    Eeef Lord of War

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    [Jul 4, 2005]
    Anyone else bored of this "my knob's bigger than yours" thread?

    We all bought what we bought and I for one am happy.

    Get over it, or buy what someone else bought.

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/soap.gif
    #12
  14. Karcsi
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    Karcsi Member

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    [Jul 4, 2005]
    Jungle, you forgot about the power/torque curve. You may have all the bhp in the world at 6000rpm, but nothing everywhere else.

    This talk about better acceleration times for the FSI over the TDI. 0-60 is 9.1 secs for the FSI and 9.5 secs for the TDI. That's official figures. In practice, there is probably next to no difference.

    Anyone seen the Top Gear race between a Mini Cooper and a Fabia VRs TDI? But of course, FSI vs TDI would be completely different because....umm.....because......because you own one!

    Anyone own a track in here, so that we could end this argument once and for all?!
    #13
  15. brandona4
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    brandona4 Member

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    [Jul 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Anyone own a track in here, so that we could end this argument once and for all?!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    ...and we can settle the S3 vs R32 too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #14
  16. OutLore
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    OutLore VOIP Dude

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    [Jul 4, 2005]
    50mpg. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif
    #15
  17. dorgan
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    dorgan Member

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    [Jul 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    50mpg. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    LOL Well said that man! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #16
  18. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Jul 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Anyone else bored of this "my knob's bigger than yours" thread?

    We all bought what we bought and I for one am happy.

    Get over it, or buy what someone else bought.

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/soap.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Here, Here! Why don't you all just enjoy your cars /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
    #17
  19. yak
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    yak Member

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    [Jul 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    50mpg. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Hey, no diesel tax /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fuck_you.gif

    Offtopic, there was some sort of Octavia II 2,0FSI testdrive, and they got pretty good average consumption over 1200 km, 4,2l/100km.

    That's 67,2 mpg. Quite good for a petrol car /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #18
  20. OutLore
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    OutLore VOIP Dude

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    [Jul 5, 2005]
    Who cares anyway - "First one to the speed camera gets the ticket"
    #19
  21. DAF
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    DAF Member

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    [Jul 5, 2005]
    did anybody see top gear when they raced a spit BMW 330 petrol against the 330 diesel version the petrol won by 0.5 sec. And i own a Tdi.
    #20
  22. brandona4
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    brandona4 Member

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    [Jul 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    did anybody see top gear when they raced a spit BMW 330 petrol against the 330 diesel version the petrol won by 0.5 sec. And i own a Tdi.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    what's a spit 330 petrol?,
    Anyway, was that round a track or a drag race. Also isn't the book time (0-60) for a 330d around a second and a half slower than a 330i
    #21
  23. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Jul 5, 2005]

    Yep that was on a race track and I think it was fifth gear wasn't it? Tiff was driving the petrol and button the diesel.

    But if you want to bring that up top gear did race a fabia Vrs against a mini cooper (not S) with Jezza driving the Fabia and tiny Rich Hammond driving the mini and the Fabia won so what does that prove?


    J.
    #22
  24. Karcsi
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    Karcsi Member

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    [Jul 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    did anybody see top gear when they raced a spit BMW 330 petrol against the 330 diesel version the petrol won by 0.5 sec. And i own a Tdi.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    what's a spit 330 petrol?,
    Anyway, was that round a track or a drag race. Also isn't the book time (0-60) for a 330d around a second and a half slower than a 330i

    [/ QUOTE ]

    And the 330i has over 230 bhp, the 330d 204 bhp. The petrol has 300nm at 3500 revs, and the diesel 410Nm from 1500rpm throught to 3150rpm. So 0.5 secs every 60 seconds ain't half bad.

    The FSI has 148bhp, and 200NM at 3500 rpm, the TDI 138bhp, and 320NM between 1750 and 2500rpm. So, theoretically, the TDI should be ahead on the track, as long as you know how to drive the thing. If not (changing up 300-500 rpm too late or too early), then the FSI will take you. Driving a petrol car is a no brainer - to the red line every time. A monkey could do it...or perhaps an orangutang, as a monkey would have difficulty reaching the pedals.

    You must remember, although revs are limited on a diesel, the gearing is higher (by about, I guess, almost 50%). So, gear changes aren't that more frequent on a diesel than a petrol.

    I can't believe an FSI did 67mpg. The 1.6 FSI A2 does no where near that. Mid 40s max in this world. But try doing that if you what to get anywhere half quickly.
    #23
  25. jungle
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    jungle Member

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]

    The FSI has 148bhp, and 200NM at 3500 rpm, the TDI 138bhp, and 320NM between 1750 and 2500rpm. So, theoretically, the TDI should be ahead on the track, as long as you know how to drive the thing. If not (changing up 300-500 rpm too late or too early), then the FSI will take you. Driving a petrol car is a no brainer - to the red line every time. A monkey could do it...or perhaps an orangutang, as a monkey would have difficulty reaching the pedals.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Such generosity. Not only do you offer new laws of physics, you also intimate that skillful driving is all about when to change gear.

    Where do you people get these ideas about masses of low down torque being quicker in a drag race than peak power?

    I am struggling not to insult you Karsci, but I am afraid I will have to leave this forum. People like you are convincing me that too many Audi Sport members are big wheel, votex kit loving cretins who lack even the most basic knowledge of mechanics and driving skills to be worth "talking" to. Are you all Nova GTE boys done good? Since when did a race between a bloody TDi and a FSi even rate as interesting? They are shopping trolleys, not performance cars. Yet here we find people defending their cars as if they were about to take them on track. Worse still, half of you think your TDi is such a beast, it needs to be given 18" alloys, a body kit, quad pipes and dark glass.

    Sorry Karsci, I'm sure you're a nice lad, but there is too much nonsense here.
    #24
  26. Karcsi
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    Karcsi Member

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    New laws of phyiscs? Please explain.

    We're talking about which car would be faster around a track, not which driver would be faster. Knowing how to drive the thing, in relation to when to change gear and get the most out of the engine, not how to go round corners. There is some additional skill involved in driving a diesel because you need to learn the characteristics of the engine, and it is more sensitive to when you change up compared to a petrol engine. That's what I was intimating.

    It's not all about low down torque, though, is it? My, admittedly chipped, TDI has equally as much acceleration at 4000rpm as 2000rpm. That's peak power and torque working together.


    I'm not sure why you are getting all het up about some silly discussion on a public forum. You have your (educated) opinion, the rest of us have our (uneducated) views. We do not drive under carefully controlled laboratory conditions, nor are we racing drivers. We're just average drivers on the public highways. So perhaps principles of physics should not be so clinically applied.

    By the way, other than the chip, my car is bog standard and is remaining as such. I've never owned or come close to owning any such vehicle as you imply. And, FYI, I have a 1st in Mathematics and Physics. So I probably know a tad about mechanics and the laws of physics.
    #25
  27. TDI-line
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    TDI-line Uber Post Whore

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    Is this still going on??

    Why?
    #26
  28. slimbloke
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    slimbloke Member

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    it's like a slowly unfolding, badly acted, soap opera... I love it!

    I might even start talking about the A3 not being sports cars too soon!

    They both look good, it's just that one sounds like a tractor... anything else makes no difference to me and my big gussling 3.2 V6... oh dear... someone is bound to take offence about this too now, he-he. hhmmmph... now I'm getting OT

    can't we just get one person to drag the 2 cars and time it?

    fight, fight, fight!

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #27
  29. cheechy
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    cheechy Member

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    Personally I dont give a monkeys. Got my TDI as a good price / performance / economy standpoint and am pretty happy.

    Saying that my next may be a petrol - but to be honest I may miss all that torque!
    #28
  30. arthurfuxake
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    arthurfuxake Controversial & Contradictive

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    I know what you mean cheechy, I'm looking at buying a new A4, cant decide between the 2.0TDi and the 2.0TFSI. I can't really justify the diesel as I dont do many miles anymore, but I'd miss that torque. The 2.0TFSI is really quick(a lot quicker than the TDi), but the torque of the diesel still excites me. I said I'd never go back to petrol, and I stuck by that statement when I had the 2.0FSI(felt gutless to me) as a loan car. But that has changed since driving the 2.0TFSI. My statement now is I'll never drive a normally aspirated car again. TURBOS-you've gotta love them!
    #29
  31. Karcsi
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    Karcsi Member

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    All I really know is that my TDI can go faster than I'd care to go on the public roads. That's enough for me.


    The TFSI is a fantastic engine, and has got loads of low down poke for a petrol engine. The FSI has more oomph lower down in the rev range and a normal petrol I think, but the turbo makes a huge difference. Feels and sounds as solid as granite, as well.
    #30
  32. mickc
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    mickc New Member

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    'ere 'ere Leman.
    I was enjoying this thread, apart from the odd bit of sniping, it was turning into a good debate.
    I found it strange that people would put finger to keyboard in an effort to end the thread, surely they are just perpetuating it, rather than letting it die.
    IMO a debate on bhp vs torque is much more interesting than another P21S vs Megs debate (by the way I use megs, my car is shiny apart from the birds poo matt splodge)
    The majority of contributiors have taken the time to construct decent arguements and should be commended, the people who add the odd line with nothing to say, are the ones doing most of the moaning.

    Back on the subject, which I hope comes to a good conclusion however long it takes, there is a lot of theory on here, some which I understand (being an engineer) some which I dont (not a very good one) and one practical example, which at best is circumstantial, as we only know, for definate, that one side was trying his best. So I do hope some guru comes and sorts it out, or 2 of us meet and, in a friendly way, see what happens.

    I chose the tdi because it "felt" faster.
    #31
  33. patinipa
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    patinipa New Member

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    I'm amazed to read all this literature on which motor is best and under which circumstances it's best (phase of the moon, etc). Surely guys, there are far better engines than your little 2.0 TDI and 2.0 FSI. There are even better engines than the 2.0 TFSI and 3.2. I bet my 1.6 FSI can give you all a hard lesson to remember! Actually.. I've two 1.6 FSI's on my A3, one in the front moving the front wheels and one in my trunk moving the rear ones (it's a special project of mine). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/groovy.gif
    What I'm trying to say is.. Be happy with what you have, A3 is a great car, it's great when slowly moving in the city, it's great in the highway with it's fat ass changing lanes like crazy (that's not people in this forum, these drive carefully). I'm off topic, please continue, I like this debate..
    #32
  34. benw123
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    benw123 Moderator

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    The truth is that next to the "I blew away a 911 in my Nova 1.2" debates, diesel vs petrol is the most common as diesel-engined cars continue to gain in popularity. So a few heart-felt posts in these kind of discussions is nothing new and shouldn't be discouraged.

    Yet there's really nothing to split the two fuel types. The TDI perhaps offers much better fuel economy, but the FSI is more fun to drive hard. The TDI is noiser than the FSI, but makes up for it with swifter in-gear acceleration. You get the idea.

    I've already pointed out (see my previous post) that it's pointless comparing the results of road races; so while we continue to add to this debate, lets just remember that we all made a choice when we bought our A3s and this shouldn't be taken personally among fellow posters.
    #33
  35. brandona4
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    brandona4 Member

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    it's pointless comparing the results of road races

    [/ QUOTE ]

    but its fun!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #34
  36. necroeire
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    necroeire Active Member

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    [Jul 6, 2005]
    Any pics of your A3 with 2 engines?

    Good debate by the way. Me I have a petrol, but I am thinking of getting a TDI next time because I have fairly high mileage.
    #35
  37. miketweed
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    miketweed Member

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    [Jul 7, 2005]
    Hurray for jungle!

    A lot of people are missing the point here, and on other threads.

    On a straight acceleration / top speed race, BHP will ALWAYS win. It has to by definition. Power x Mass = Acceleration (no mention of torque in that formula)

    Torque doesn't come into it, Uphill or down hill or whatever. As said previously, Power is basically the 'rate of work' (revs) X the 'ability to do work' (torque). Examples:

    A HGV tractor unit has about 2000lbft of torque, but only about 300bhp and at very low revs, making it easier to match engine speed to wheel speed with minimum gearing.
    If you put a 310bhp / 100lbft / 16,000rpm tuned bike engine in that truck, it would be quicker accel & top end (but you'd need about 100 gears to get there)

    Take it to the extreme... A DC electric motor produces maximum torque at ZERO rpm, therefore the Power at that point also equals ZERO, becaue a motor that isn't moving can't do any work! All the torque in the world won't do anything without revs to back it up.

    BHP or Power is king, ultimately, but usable torque wins on the day to day praticality and driveability stakes.....

    So if i can get my moped revving to 10,000,000 rpm................
    #36
  38. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Jul 7, 2005]

    All I know is that regardless of how quick I think my 2.0Tdi is I got whupped by my mate in his S4 last night /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
    #37
  39. yak
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    yak Member

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    [Jul 8, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]

    I can't believe an FSI did 67mpg. The 1.6 FSI A2 does no where near that. Mid 40s max in this world. But try doing that if you what to get anywhere half quickly.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Most be something wrong with your driving style, but even I have reached over 50mpg with my 2,0FSI while driving 90-110km/h for 100km.

    - Yak
    #38
  40. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Jul 8, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Hurray for jungle!

    A lot of people are missing the point here, and on other threads.

    On a straight acceleration / top speed race, BHP will ALWAYS win. It has to by definition. Power x Mass = Acceleration (no mention of torque in that formula)

    Torque doesn't come into it, Uphill or down hill or whatever. As said previously, Power is basically the 'rate of work' (revs) X the 'ability to do work' (torque). Examples:

    A HGV tractor unit has about 2000lbft of torque, but only about 300bhp and at very low revs, making it easier to match engine speed to wheel speed with minimum gearing.
    If you put a 310bhp / 100lbft / 16,000rpm tuned bike engine in that truck, it would be quicker accel & top end (but you'd need about 100 gears to get there)

    Take it to the extreme... A DC electric motor produces maximum torque at ZERO rpm, therefore the Power at that point also equals ZERO, becaue a motor that isn't moving can't do any work! All the torque in the world won't do anything without revs to back it up.

    BHP or Power is king, ultimately, but usable torque wins on the day to day praticality and driveability stakes.....

    So if i can get my moped revving to 10,000,000 rpm................

    [/ QUOTE ]

    miket, in theory this is true, but consider the following:

    If the FSI made 150bhp at 7k revs and only 100bhp at 6.5k revs ( i.e. not very linear power curve ) then when you drop to the next gear you lose so much power. With the TDI you have more usable power MORE of the time.

    The Focus ST170 is exactly like this and it has been mentioned by motoring mags that IF it indeed has 170bhp it must be inbetween 6950 and 7000 rpm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Not saying this is true of all, but hope you get my point /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #39
  41. yak
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    yak Member

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    [Jul 8, 2005]
    Well, luckily that isn't the case Japper, FSI's torque-curve is pretty constant, and the maximum bhp is also available at more than 50rpm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    http://www.yak.iki.fi/a3/A3-2.0FSI-1033.jpg

    Of course, there could be engines with the maximum power only available at small range and nothing before or after, but that could affect both, diesel and petrol /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #40

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