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Powerflex dog bone mount and low speed Judder?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Markb, Mar 19, 2005.

  1. Markb
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    Markb Active Member

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    [Mar 19, 2005]
    As subject I changed the dog bone bushes on my car while I was doing some other work /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Anyway I now have a judder at low speed which I assume is being caused by the up rated bushes?

    Anyone else suffered from this? Or does this seem normal? (Maybe too hard?)

    Cheers Mark.
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  3. PaulRS3
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    PaulRS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 19, 2005]
    heard similar before, on more than a couple of occasions so ive never bothered with them.

    i dont see putting up with things getting worse, just for the sake of modifying them.
    #2
  4. Markb
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    Markb Active Member

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    [Mar 19, 2005]
    Great sounds like the OEM ones will be going on again then /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
    #3
  5. PaulRS3
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    PaulRS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 19, 2005]
    i think most people put up with it, havening spent money, and principle etc

    but i see it as a backwards step.
    stiffening up those type linkages, only transfers it somewhere else.

    i tried a Neuspeed short shifter after the TT'ers sung its praises.

    I have never wanted to get rid of something so quick in my life, it was awful.

    whilst the gear box end is the same, maybe the gear stick linkage is different to the TT and affects the relationship to the short shfter, but there was no way i could live with it.
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  6. HTC
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    HTC Active Member

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    [Mar 19, 2005]
    If you are upping the power you WILL need them. You should see how much the engine rocks around with the standard mount. You'd think it was going to jump out!

    Anyways, the vibration will settle after a while.
    #5
  7. PaulRS3
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    PaulRS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 19, 2005]
    all engines move.

    ive had 2 remapped S3's and not needed it.

    i can also point you to many more that have not need them..
    #6
  8. HTC
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    HTC Active Member

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    [Mar 19, 2005]
    There is movement and there is excessive movement.
    My personal opinion is that the audi engines movement is excessive compared to some makes.

    You pays ya money etc.
    #7
  9. Markb
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    Markb Active Member

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    [Mar 19, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    If you are upping the power you WILL need them. You should see how much the engine rocks around with the standard mount. You'd think it was going to jump out!

    Anyways, the vibration will settle after a while.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    OK I'll give week or so and see what happens.

    Engine upgrades are planned in the future /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #8
  10. hopper
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    hopper Member

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    [Mar 20, 2005]
    i fitted mine on wednesday and yeah i got the same, all it is now that the engine movement is restricted by the bushes it is vibrating through the next solid item which is the subframe, then the body and so on. yeah i think it is a bit annoying but has made getting 2nd gear smother so ill stick with it
    #9
  11. Markb
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    Markb Active Member

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    [Mar 21, 2005]
    Yeah I've noticed that it has made 2nd gear better, but it is quite a judder /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
    #10
  12. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Mar 21, 2005]
    As the bushes wear in, the judder gets better. They are pretty harsh at first but the advantagtes for me outweigh the one disadvantage. I wouldnt run the stock engine mount with the kind of power im running, or even a chipped S3 to be honest as the engine moves so much. There is a vast improvement in throttle response form fitting a dog bone mount, but you need to keep the revs up when pulling away .etc to avoid the vibration. a small price to pay i feel.

    Rich
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  13. DuncS3
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    DuncS3 Member

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    [Mar 21, 2005]
    Okay so if you get judder from the mount at low revs i could handle that but is ride quality affected in any way? I mean are bumps/pot holes shocks transmitted more into the cabin perhaps?

    Cant make my car any stiffer than it is with H&Rs and Konis.

    Dunc
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  14. ANDYTQ
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    ANDYTQ Active Member

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    [Mar 21, 2005]
    Its a must to prevent expensive s/s front pipes cracking,power delivery is better too on fwd cars,it will bed in mine did. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gifAndy
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  15. s3bow
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    s3bow Member

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    [Mar 21, 2005]
    Snap. Mine bedded in after about 3-4 days. Ok now . Fitted mine to stop engine movement. D/P touching bulkhead. Still touching though. Doh !

    Chris.
    #14
  16. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Mar 22, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Snap. Mine bedded in after about 3-4 days. Ok now . Fitted mine to stop engine movement. D/P touching bulkhead. Still touching though. Doh !

    Chris.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry for the length of this..

    My engine still moves after fitting the Powerflex busher, basically I still get the odd grind from 2nd to 3rd but the most annoying thing is if in 3rd or 5th with my hand on the gear stick if I press the accelerator the gear stick moves back slightly and I can feel the bump of whatever is hitting what through the gear stick, if I am rough with the accelerator or dipping the clutch, I can clearly hear the noise of whatever is hitting what (noise occurs same time as I feel the bump through gear stick)
    My guess is that it is the engine moving back which is causing the transmission to move hence the gear stick moving? the noise I expect is the also the engine moving back and down pipe hitting the bulkhead?
    I thought the DBM busher would have made this better and it did for all of a few days (may have been better just in my head though) so I took it into Audi and a Senior Tech (well he was in his 40's) took the car out and drove it, he managed to replicate exactly what I was getting (apart from the bump through the gear stick as this was not happening then) but said this was normal and all of the S3's did it ! so that is when I took maters into my own hands and went down the Powerflex route.

    It has however got worse since Audi drove it and the movement has started to make the car frog at low speeds, even with my foot in a consistent depression on the accelerator, this again leads me to believe the engine is moving back and forth, so I have two options.

    1. remove the whole Dog Bone mount and replace with one of these

    [​IMG]

    EIP 1.8T Transmount £85.00 in Blue or Silver

    This is a brand new modification for the VW MK4, Audi S3, VR6, R32 and 4-cylinder equipped vehicles. This center/rear lower mount decreases motor rocking incredibly, instantly you will feel more power to the ground. The EIP motor mount does not use hard polyurethane found in most other mounts. Because of this, little to no additional vibration will be felt when using our mount.

    Or

    2. Take it back to Audi and get them to look again at all engine mountings (think there are another 2 as well as the DBM) and see what they have to say now the bump can be felt through the transmission clearer.

    What do you all recon, I am thinking number 2 first then if no joy number 1?

    As for the vibration increase, mine was slight but it has either gone now or I don't notice it any more.
    #15
  17. s3bow
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    s3bow Member

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    [Mar 22, 2005]
    Feel some rock through my gearstick. Think thats just the way it is. I've got a 3" d/p so used the mount to try and prevent contact.

    Chris.
    #16
  18. Khufu
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    Khufu Active Member

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    [Mar 22, 2005]
    certainly looks nice if nothing else /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I was going to get the bush too but haven't got round to it, now i'm not so sure.
    #17
  19. ANDYTQ
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    ANDYTQ Active Member

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    [Mar 22, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Any thoughts on the above mount from EIP? or any idea's if I am correct about the movement and bumps I am feeling through the gear stick?

    [/ QUOTE ]A lot of the seat boys have bought these eip mounts and reckon the only difference is blue paint and £100.Some of them have removed them because they were harsh too.£17 is a lot better in my book,if you want bling buy the eip but the powerflex will do the job. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gifAndy
    #18
  20. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Mar 23, 2005]
    I was not going to do it for Bling factor and would not care if it was pink as long as it improved my engine movement and gear change, I have the Powerflex DBM busher and it has not made that much difference, so I was looking at this mount as it is a full product and not just a busher, the DBM has other smaller bushes at the thin end that can cause movement also I have been told.

    I think I will book it into Audi, get them to look inot the movement and see what they say first.
    #19
  21. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Mar 23, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I was not going to do it for Bling factor and would not care if it was pink as long as it improved my engine movement and gear change, I have the Powerflex DBM busher and it has not made that much difference, so I was looking at this mount as it is a full product and not just a busher, the DBM has other smaller bushes at the thin end that can cause movement also I have been told.

    I think I will book it into Audi, get them to look inot the movement and see what they say first.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    To be honest mate it sound like you have an underlying problem, nothing really to do with the dog bone mount. Maybe the engine mounts themselves or somehting not in the correct place!?

    Rich
    #20
  22. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Mar 24, 2005]
    Yeah it is booked in with Audi under warranty for them to look again next Wednesday, workshop controller and service manager will be attending so will wait and see what they say, I am sure that another mount has failed or something is not as tight as it should be.
    #21
  23. pure
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    pure Member

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    [Mar 24, 2005]
    Sorry not read the rest of this post so appologies ifthis has already been metioned.

    Basically, if you change the dogbone mount, once your rolling you shouldn't feel anything. The only time you would feel it is if you have totally over tightened it and you are on tickover. You would feel it through the pedals , gear stick and steering wheel.

    You have either totally overtightened it / or as Rich says it sounds to me like an underlying problem.

    Why dont u put thestock dogbone back on the car to test? After all it is only a 10mni job to do.
    #22
  24. HTC
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    HTC Active Member

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    [Mar 25, 2005]
    Audi Torque Ratings:

    Pendulum support to gearbox = 40Nm + quarter turn

    Pendulum support tp subframe = 20Nm + quarter turn.

    Bear in mine that these are stretch bolts and should be replaced.

    Whether these torque ratings apply to the powerflex bushes I couldn't say for sure, but for example 20Nm + quarter turn isn't alot at all, so I suggest you guys check if you 've done them up too tight.
    #23
  25. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Mar 25, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    is there a specific torque rating for the mount in the fitting instructions?

    Dunc

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I used these fitting instructions and torque rates, having no problem at all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    http://www.neuspeed.com/data/installs/22.10.89.pdf
    #24
  26. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Mar 25, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Sorry not read the rest of this post so appologies ifthis has already been metioned.

    Basically, if you change the dogbone mount, once your rolling you shouldn't feel anything. The only time you would feel it is if you have totally over tightened it and you are on tickover. You would feel it through the pedals , gear stick and steering wheel.

    You have either totally overtightened it / or as Rich says it sounds to me like an underlying problem.

    Why dont u put thestock dogbone back on the car to test? After all it is only a 10mni job to do.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You have misunderstood, I had this problem before I got the Powerflex busher, hence why I fitted the DBM busher to try and stop/improve the movement, the DBM on my car was done to the correct torque settings, the vibration is slightly higher than it was (felt as you said through steering and pedals) but that was expected, it seemed to kinda help for a short while, but since then I have had a front passenger side spring and front ARB replaced (spring snapped and the passenger side collar on the ARB had cracked causing movement so the ARB may have been absorbing some of the overall movement) so whatever caused these problems must have caused this, so so much for Audi's 100 point check for the warranty!
    What I have is a hell of a lot of movement, feels like the engine is swinging back and forth and certainly sounds like it. With both windows down, say if in second at about 15mph rolling then drop the clutch up and down a few times fast, you can clearly hear clunk, clunk, as what ever is loose swings back and forth as if the engine is swinging or something, also as said now and again I grind the gear from 2nd to 3rd. The DBM and front ARB are all fixed tight, as I said they have recently been done, during which the sub frame was dropped, so my money is on the other two engine mounts or the gearbox/transmission mount, whatever it is something is very loose and if Audi try and tell me like last time that it is normal, I am gonna go Fcuking ape.
    I can make the car do it at any time so replicating for them or anyone it is not a problem.

    Like I say, will see what Audi say or find next Wednesday.
    .
    #25
  27. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Mar 25, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I used these fitting instructions and torque rates, having no problem at all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So are you using the Powerflex item? No judder either?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    yes Mark, I'm using the Powerflex item(both of them), I don't get any judder what so ever, but I can feel the clutch a bit more, like a slight vibration during clutch take up when pulling off which is expected.
    #26
  28. Markb
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    Markb Active Member

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    [Mar 25, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I used these fitting instructions and torque rates, having no problem at all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So are you using the Powerflex item? No judder either?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    yes Mark, I'm using the Powerflex item(both of them), I don't get any judder what so ever, but I can feel the clutch a bit more, like a slight vibration during clutch take up when pulling off which is expected.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sounds like I am going to have to have it on the ramps again and use the correct torque settings.
    #27
  29. imported_Pures3work
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    imported_Pures3work Guest

    [Mar 30, 2005]
    what a joke! What about trying another more helpfull stealer?
    #28
  30. dickys3
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    dickys3 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Mar 30, 2005]
    Ash who did you speak with? Was it Mervyn or somebody like that?

    If you want you can try my S3 if it helps?

    Let me know
    Rich.
    #29
  31. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Mar 30, 2005]
    It was the short bloke with a shaved head, he is the workshop controler. Will wait and see what they say next week, cheers for the offer Rich.

    Will give them a chance as this dealer has been A+ so far.
    #30
  32. dickys3
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    dickys3 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Mar 30, 2005]
    Yeah I think thats the guy. Doesn't say an awfull lot but he's sometimes ok.

    Let us know how you get on.
    #31
  33. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Mar 30, 2005]
    Yeah thats him, just winds me up that they say nothing is moving without even takin a look!

    Will let ya know.

    Does anyone have any pics or diagrams of engine mounts (not DBM) or gearbox mounts etc, that I can check in the mean time?
    #32
  34. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Mar 31, 2005]
    Good point, thing is the movement was there before the sub frame was dropped to do the front ARB, so I am still going with a cracked or worn engine mount for the time being.
    #33
  35. dickys3
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    dickys3 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 1, 2005]
    I'll try it tomorrow and let you know ash.
    #34
  36. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Apr 1, 2005]
    Cheers mate /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #35
  37. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Apr 2, 2005]
    Rich,

    Cheers for that, I did not think there would be any noise, you aren't about Tuesday at 11am ish are you? if so do you fancy meeting me at Sinclair in Gorseinon if they can't get another S3 to compare with mine?

    Ash
    #36
  38. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Apr 2, 2005]
    I have just done a test that I hope will prove that the noise cannot be "normal gear linkage causing the noise" as said.
    With the car parked, handbrake on and in neutral, just blipping the throttle causes a clunk and slight movement, it is dark so have not been able to see anything whilst pushing the throttle lying down, but I should be able to see some movement tomorrow, it seems the clunk is central.

    Surely it cannot be "normal gear linkage causing the noise" if no gear is engaged and no clutch compressed?
    #37
  39. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Apr 5, 2005]
    OK for those who care,

    I just got back from Audi and the S3 I drove was the same as mine /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif the noise is the 3 point gear linkage play and "is normal in these cars" the noise in neutral when blipping the throttle is an engine gear and this has been proved by Audi by pressing the clutch and blipping the throttle, the noise goes away as the clutch is engaged ready for one of the forward or reverse drive gears. The service manager Clive (Audi tech before manager) went through all of this and spent 2 hours with me test driving and looking the car over on a ramp, explaining what he was doing and why at each stage, he ran full VAGCOM on it in case the frogging that I was experiencing was due to incorrect engine fuel mixtures or lambada values etc, he checked all engine mounts and alignment, checked the suspension and sub frame all did what they meant to movement wise, he was impressed by how little the engine actually moved due to the Powerflex DBM restricting it, he said it was a shame that the smaller busher could not be purchased as well that sits in the pendulum part of the DBM. Anyway short fall of it is that no engine/transmission/gearbox/suspension/steering excessive movement, no mounts or fixings are faulty and that it is purely gear linkage making a noise that he would expect with me me jumping on and off the clutch and throttle like a "mad man" as it does not do it all the time under normal driving, just now and again.

    Apparently the gearbox and linkage are sealed at the factory and Audi do not allow dismantling due to cog placement and torque settings etc, so he said if he thought the noise would be resolved by replacing the full gearbox he would authorise it to be done under warranty as he said "at the end of the day we want warranty work as we get paid by Audi for it, so there is no point me sending you away if I think it needs doing" I asked what would happen if after my warranty runs out in September that a gear box problem or the linkage noise becomes very visible under normal driving? he said "come back just before it runs out and report the issue to me again, I will add a job card to your file after inspecting it again under warranty, then if a fault occurs after we can show that you constantly reported this fault during warranty and then get a good will gesture off Audi and get it done for free" so happy about that.
    All in all dealing with Clive proved to be a better option than this "workshop controller" as he was willing to spend time going over the car with me to convince me that all is well mount and fixing wise, so thanks to him for that.
    I am now convinced that all is well safety and car health wise but I am still a bit iffy about the S3 gear linkage being that noisy and will fit an EIP mount to reduce the general gear sloppiness and report back once fitted (got to wait for the part from the US)

    I now find my self asking "am I too fussy as far as noises and creaks when it comes to cars" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
    #38
  40. dickys3
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    dickys3 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    Well glad you got some sense from it all Ash! If we ever goto a local meet you'l have to show me what you mean?

    I'm obviously not driving it like a "mad man" unlike you! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Cheers
    Rich
    #39
  41. imported_ashs3
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    imported_ashs3 Guest

    [Apr 5, 2005]
    Indeed, I can show you what I mean, mad man is what my dad laughed at, he said "he knows you then"

    Well lets hope Westec are up and running fully in a couple of weeks, I fancy doing a meet there even if the RR is not ready?
    #40

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