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GIAC Official Response - S3 330 Map

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Spin140, Feb 5, 2008.

  1. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Feb 5, 2008]
    I sent a mail to the guy in the states that I communicated with prior to settling on GIAC for my remap last month to try and put to rest some of the fears expressed by myself and other members concerning the latest 'Hammer' map which has been released for the S3 8P.

    The contact is Austin Wyly and can be contacted via their website, or on the e-mail address below (no spam please) response can take a couple of days due to time differences but all questions are answered in laymans terms.

    Austin Wyly <Austin@giacusa.com>


    My interpretation of his reply is that on a healthy car (which all should be) the 330 map is intended for use with no additional hardware changes so if going down the Miltek route the standard 310bhp would suffice.

    My enquiry mail....


    Hi Austin,

    sorry to bother you again but hopefully you can provide some more info.

    I am hearing about a 'new' Hammer map that is now available for my S3 which promises even greater performance gains.

    Some have approximated the new output to be 330bhp with no hardware changes required as opposed to @ 310bhp on my own map.

    I am considering updating to this newer version but after some research I have some reservations as their is some concern regarding the cars standard fuel pump and reportedly it can struggle to supply enough fuel beyond 320bhp, Revo recommend an upgrade.

    I am happy the other components will be fine on my car as I treat it with respect and always warm up etc before having any fun and the car is for fast road use only.

    I plan to add a Carbonio Intake and upgraded panel filter purely for aesthetics and then update to the new Hammer map, at this moment in time I have no plans to upgrade the standard exhaust system, in the opinion of GIAC will this be as reliable and component friendly as the 310 map already purchased.......

    Thanks

    Martin



    His response....


    Hi Martin,

    It is possible to hit fuel cut with certain hardware additions in addition to the hammer file. However, I should note that maximum horsepower output is not very pertinent to fuel cut issues as that generally occurs at or around peak torque when the boost spikes to its highest. With the addition of a catless and/or larger exhaust (76mm+) peak boost will be higher with our software and this could result in the fuel cut that others have been referring to. Turbulent intakes can also cause the ECU to misinterpret load and request more boost as well. We do aspire to have the greatest amount of power under the curve possible and are well aware of the fueling limits of the 2.0T FSI engines. We take that into consideration when creating a save a reliable fueling curve. While differing states of health in cars might produce different results, a healthy car should run perfectly fine with the hammer file. I would recommend trying out the file on your car and experiencing it for yourself as speculation only goes so far and that seems to be what is happening aside from the owners of the file who are happy with it (in reference to your thread). In terms of too much power, the S3 has stronger internals than a conventional 2.0T and can handle the power output of our software without issue.

    Best Regards,

    Austin..../


    The standard 310bhp map offers more than enough performance with absoultely zero issues to date, the car is smooth and powers all through the rev range with immense accelaration, no hesitations or 'peaky' power, as I'm not planning a Miltek upgarde anytime soon I will try out the hammer map as soon as I get opportunity to visit Statller but in the meantime as I said the GIAC standard map will be more than enough for most - guess I'm just greedy :)
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  3. phantom
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    phantom On Boost

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    [Feb 5, 2008]
    So in short if you go for the Hammer map DON'T get a new zorst!

    I phoned up Regal asking could i buy the switch loader and have the KILL function put on before a choose my map ( " no you need the GIAC pump file for it to work " ) and asked them about the hammer map " no other mods needed, safe has house's , blah , blah , blah " one thing he did say that struck a cord was " always have a 1/4 of a tank of fuel in your car " is this the norm?

    p
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  4. Johnnyb
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    Johnnyb Member

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    [Feb 5, 2008]
    Im a bit confused now, statller have recommended a milltek cat-back exhaust in conjunction with the 330 map, and they seem to know their stuff
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  5. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Feb 5, 2008]

    Excuse the pun but adds 'fuel' to the argument about fuel pump limitations as the pump would wwork harder with less fuel in tank, again no issues with the 310 map as I never fill up until I hit the light mainly because the nearest Shell garage is never en-route I have to make a special trip of 8 miles.

    It seems strange that the Kill function requires the pump map as I would have thought just one map would be uploaded to the ECU and controlled via the flashloader with the pump being added at a later date ?!? They may be spinning you a line to get you to go for the full monty and relieve you of extra cash
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  6. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Feb 5, 2008]

    The thing is Johnny you aren't having any problems with the 330 map minus any hardware changes so why upgrade the Zorst and advertise to the dealer its been tuned?

    I have always upgraded to a Miltek in the past but the standard system with its 'trick' valves make such a gorgeous sound under load I would only do so this time if one came along at the right price.

    If you intend to keep tuning and are happy to go down the eventual upgraded fuel pump/injectors route at a later date I would say the Miltek is a must and you will probably be looking at around 350bhp, if you are happy with 330 just stick with the map, but most important to me is forget the figures and go by how it drives, power is nothing without driveability.

    Spin.
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  7. phantom
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    phantom On Boost

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    [Feb 5, 2008]
    Sorry , what i ment was don't let your fuel tank drop below a 1/4 of a tank?

    Maybe they are spinning me a line , he said you need the rest of the GIAC code/map to exstract part of it in order for the kill map to work, which i can understand!

    p
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  8. JamS3
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    JamS3 Active Member

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    [Feb 5, 2008]
    Seems too much of a complete fart on to me for 20bhp with too many people suggesting different things which I interpret as them not really knowing the real answer and I for one don't want to stake a 30k car on the internals blowing up over 20bhp.

    I'd just go for the 310bhp and be happy that the fuel pump will work, the turbo is within its limits and the clutch and gearbox will hold on for more than 20k miles!
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  9. Oli.
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    Oli. Member

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    [Feb 5, 2008]
    I will be going for the standard 310 map, and if Im not happy with the performance, which Im sure I will be, Ill be putting a Milltek and different filter on it, a far safer way of getting more horses.
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  10. richs2891
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    richs2891 I cant spell !

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    [Feb 5, 2008]
    Would be interesed in how both maps the 310 & the 330 bhp version cope with less than ideal fuel - for example 95 ron stuff ? Anyone one know ? Local garage always seems to be out of optimax !

    Richard
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  11. Kris
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    Kris Member

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    [Feb 5, 2008]
    They won't like 95 ron at all, need to switch back to stock with the flash loader untill 97/98 ron is available.

    With regard to the rest of the posts: I can understand peoples hesitation but from my part i've gone with the 330bhp map and will be sticking with it. I could drop down to the 310bhp which i'm sure is good from what i've read but hell, i've made my bed so i'll lay on it so to speak. I'm as interested in long term reliability as much (probably more) as anyone but i'm certainly not going to loose sleep over it. Debatable what the 330 map actually kicks out in true horse power, i probably wouldn't know just by driving if it was 310 or 330? I am curious as to the true power although if it was 315/320 ish i'd be happy enough, for me it's what usefull gains i get as opposed to pub bragging rights. It would also be interesting how a 310 and 330 mapped car performed side by side? If there were little to nothing in it i'd be the first to say may as well stick to the 310 with a bigger margin of safety. Last weekend i didn't spare the engine nor tyres over 2/3 hours and can honestly say the S3 in this state of tune is a very fast car. Time will tell ........ btw, anyone know where to get S3 reconditioned engines from cheap ;-)
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  12. Johnnyb
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    Johnnyb Member

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    [Feb 5, 2008]
    It still remains to be seen that the map is producing 330bhp, i dont think GIAC set out to achieve actual accurate bhp figures with their maps, its more a case of creating an updated and improved version of the last one, and the bhp figure is a by product.

    There is a bit of negative vibe towards this map, which on reflection is reasonable, but so far there has been no complaints about internals or other parts from anyone that has had this map, and i dont think GIAC would risk their reputation with a 'dodgy' map, without thoroughly testing it before its release.

    Maybe i will be proven wrong in the near future, but i do beleive the S3 internals are uprated enough to cope with the power, given you treat the car with respect
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  13. CJP80
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    CJP80 987C

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    [Feb 6, 2008]
    Can someone do VAG-COM runs with both maps to compare the boost before and after. In fact, all three would be nice: standard, 310 and the "Hammer".
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  14. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Feb 6, 2008]
    Another Response from GIAC HQ in the states ref this thread..

    I sent...............

    Thanks for that Austin,

    I've posted up your response on the forum and I will go with your advice and give the Hammer map a try as any issues should be apparent at an early stage.

    I have one final question for you .

    A forum member had an issue with Revo software where his car (A Seat Leon Cupra 225) suffered from piston slap subsequently went in for warranty work after reverting to standard Tune level but the ECU was analyised and found to have 'coding' left behind by Revo which invalidated his warranty costing him @ £3,000, his opinion is that GIAC software leaves the same signature codes behind, my understanding was that GIAC is totally transparent to dealerships.

    Can you clarify this point...

    Martin

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    Heres the response from GIAC...........


    Hi Martin,

    Upon looking over your thread I can clarify a few other points. I simply noted that adding more aggressive hardware could potentially cause fueling issues that would warrant a fuel pump upgrade. One of the Milltek owners noted that his car sees a 1.6-1.7 bar spike which is well within what our software should make for boost. I should note that it will not be the case for every car (or every exhaust configuration) as once again, every car is different. Also, our dealer noted to a potential customer that the kill mode must be purchased with the pump gas software. Our software is bundled around the pump gas software in an a la carte fashion. Upon purchasing the base file, you are then opened up to purchasing our other software options. My apologies for passing the information through you, but we are not a registered sponsor of the board you are posting on and I wish to respect their rules and regulations.

    In response to your question, was the car in question flashed completely back to stock? Or was it simply placed into 'stock mode'? When the car is flashed 'back to stock' we flash a 100% OEM file back into the car. If the car is taken in while switched into stock mode and the ECU is read out, it is possible for the manufacturer to see that there is software in the ECU.

    For a stock mode, This type of read out only happens in very serious situations such as the one you described. Our software has been updated to account for all of the latest Dealership regular service checks as we communicate regularly with our dealers regarding this matter. Let me know if you have any other questions and I will do my best to answer them.

    Best Regards,

    Austin.

    ======================================================

    From the response recieved I deduce that GIAC are more than satisfied their latest Hammer map is both capable and reliable, I'm sticking with the 310map until after the Awesome Dyno day just to get some approx figures and will update early March. On the point about Dealer transparency it seems as many suspected no remap is totally invisible whilst switchability is retained, the maps remain 'invisible' to dealer diagnostics (which is what we are mainly concerned with) but not to Manufacturer interrogation should a major claim arise - in this situation GIAC will reflash to OEM prior to your visit, I am slightly disappointed as everything you read leads you to believe otherwise but not surprised.
    However no need to panic or be put off as the Dealer is unlikely to spot it if switched back to GIAC standard power on service visits etc and the software is excellent plus this is the same scenario for all major tuners...Revo, APR, Oettinger etc..just want all to be able to make 'informed' decisions prior to purchase.

    In hindsight would I still opt for GIAC.....? YES :)

    The car runs perfectly and is very, very fast in all scenarios with power coming on strong from around 2,600 with no let up throughout the range but is equally smooth and compliant when pottering around town - its now a seriously fast car minus the hideous spoilers and 'drain-pipe' exhausts of some of the Jap competition, a real stealth speedster - I love it.
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  15. CJP80
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    CJP80 987C

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    [Feb 6, 2008]
    So to clarify,

    Actually reading the ECU files is beyond the capacity of most dealerships? As long as the checksum and flash count are fine, then you'd be ok 99% of the time.

    Is this correct?
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  16. phantom
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    phantom On Boost

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    [Feb 6, 2008]
    The way i understand it is , every dealer will have the capacity to find the file/code , but under normal warrrety work/servicing they will not have the need to cheak!

    Top and bottom of it is if they want to find it they will.

    p
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  17. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Feb 6, 2008]

    Thats it.

    I think everyone considering a remap already knows that nothing is totally transparent but the reputable Tuners are making efforts to assist their customers, not because they expect problems but because they know how some ignorant Dealers can be prone to blaming anything rather than cough up.

    In the majority of cases the dealership is unlikely to care either way especially in the first 2 yrs of manufacturers warranty as all work is cross charged back to the factory.
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  18. phantom
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    phantom On Boost

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    [Feb 6, 2008]
    When my cars mapped if i have a problems with fault codes/lights or loss of power issues i will take it back to the GIAC dealer for a 100% back to stock reflash before i take it to Audi just to be on the safe side.

    Maybe it's worth having a chat with the GIAC dealer to agree to limitless reflash's for no charge?

    p
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  19. JohnS3
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    JohnS3 Active Member

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    [Feb 6, 2008]
    If you buy the flash loader you can turn the map off yourself. You would also need the flash loader to enable the antitheft feature which has been mentioned.

    Edit: Does the flashloader restore the original map or just switch off the software?
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  20. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Feb 6, 2008]

    For normal dealer visits, servicing etc the flashloader is fine to use and swich back to standard power mode so if driven nothing is obvious as the mapped car really is that much quicker.

    The Flashloader switches from the alternate maps stored in the cars ECU, so the 265PS version is a GIAC version as is the case with APR & Revo, to my knowledge the only Tuner that uses your cars own original map is Bluefin where the 2 maps are stored in the handset rather than the ECU
    #19
  21. L60N
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    L60N Guest

    [Feb 6, 2008]
    Stop..... Hammer time

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
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  22. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Feb 6, 2008]


    LOL Fantastic :) Now Humming the tune.....
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  23. L60N
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    L60N Guest

  24. JohnS3
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    JohnS3 Active Member

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    [Feb 6, 2008]
    All this talk of power and you're all going mad!! ;)
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  25. L60N
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    L60N Guest

    [Feb 6, 2008]
    330bhp in an A3 would make me walk down the street to my car like this, singing "Hammer time"

    My friend has a 52 plate M3, which im sure is around the 350bhp mark. I'd soo love to spank him!!

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
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  26. hallster
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    hallster Member

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    [Feb 6, 2008]
    Does everyone assume that 310 is safe based on some sound information or is it just because that's what all the tuning companies happen to offer? I don't have a remap so I don't know...

    I bet that a year from now the 330 will be standard!
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  27. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Feb 7, 2008]
    I think the 310 figure is based on the "tried & tested" theory and wouldn't be surprised at all if as you say 330 is the norm from next year onwards. Its easy to see why Tuners would be more cautious initially as the only true test for a remap if Time and S3's are still fairly new.
    #26
  28. Vtec Abuser
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    Vtec Abuser Member

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    [Feb 14, 2008]
    Some interesting reading there chaps. As I will be going for the GIAC map on my Ed30 when she arrives in April, I have been very interested in this 'Hammer Map'..
    Only concern I have is, will it be available to work with the DSG box on the car??? Can it take the extra power, or am I better off sticking with the 310 map? I know the S3 doesn't have DSG, but just wondered whether any of you chaps may know..
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  29. boggysv
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    boggysv Member

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    [Feb 14, 2008]
    Dont know, but surely you can get uprated parts for the DSG?


    No problems on this car it seems.
    http://www.vagtech.co.uk/R32/media/VAGtech_Audi_Driver_Sept06.pdf
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  30. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Feb 14, 2008]
    The map will be written with DSG in mind therefore reducing the torque output earlier in the rev range to protect those clutch plates, best thing to do is get in touch with GIAC direct when the time comes as development is continual in this field plus with GIAC being a US company I've no doubt plenty of customers choose DSG as auto's are a favourite in the states.

    Imagine 300+ through the front wheels - hold on tight.....woo hooo :)
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  31. Vtec Abuser
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    [Feb 14, 2008]
    Ha ha.. Yeah, it should be fun, that's for sure.. But there's quite a few chaps who've had there's done and don't seem to be having to much trouble. Just have to go steady in the low gears, that's all. Although my LCR isn't 300bhp, it's not a million miles off so it won't be a complete shock.. Plus once rolling with no 4wd drag and 100 less kgs to carry, it should go reasonably well...... :jump: Looking forward to it!
    I rang the chap at Statler in Sheffield the other week after reading your orginal post and recommending them so much.. Let's just say he's awaiting my arrival.. :icon_thumright:
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  32. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Feb 14, 2008]
    I'm back up there on saturday upgrading to the 330 map and having an interim oil/filter change. I decided to have an extra oil change even though service not due until Jan 8 as the cars just a year old but only covered 6,500 so it seemed like a good idea to do an extra change between dealer servicing.

    Steve (Jnr) as usual was really helpful and said in his opinion a good idea, you won't be disappointed with the GIAC map(s) and will probably show us S3 owners a thing or too with your minimal transmission losses & DSG is a hoot.
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  33. Vtec Abuser
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    Vtec Abuser Member

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    [Feb 14, 2008]
    I'll let you know when the day comes.. Some time in April I imagine.
    You will have to give us all another report on the 330 map when you've had it done.. I for one am eager to hear what it's like..:icon_thumright:
    #32

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