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Brakes, Brakes, Brakes - Audi s3 8P SB upgrade advice

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by 0nemotion, Apr 9, 2012.

  1. 0nemotion
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    0nemotion New Member

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    Hey Guys.

    Firstly hello to all. I am picking up my 1st S3 next Saturday so please bare with me if any questions are/have been discussed to a vast extent.

    With a trip to the Nurburgring booked for last week of June. Front and Rear Brakes are high on the agenda however after some extensive searching; there seems to be a multitude of opinions into which setups are best§, or if they are intact a little overkill.

    After just spunking 23k, my pockets are currently a little empty so the budget is "As little as possible". This being said, i understand the cost of quality products and brakes are certainly not an area that should be scrimped upon. (Especially after owning a B5 S4).

    Criteria:
    • Std wheels.
    • Zero requirement for spacers (unless anyone can advise/prove that spacers don't ruin the cars alignment, track, handling etc)
    I have read the 997 gt2 callipers fit directly (without the need for brackets) over the 345mm discs. Although i am not positive the discs where oem.

    Misc:
    I appreciate that everyones criteria is different, which therefore results in multiple opinions.
    This being said, could somebody begin a poll or (advise me how to) for users to vote their preferences??

    Warmest regards

    Russ
    #1
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  3. Sandra
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    Sandra MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    Welcome to ASN Russ. What do want your poll to say? Post pics of car when you get it. Are you going to be using this new car as your track car. I suggest you might read a couple of build threads in the 8l section. Users names are Westy and Prawn. They are an intersting read and you may get infoo in brakes in there. Enjoy the forum. :)
    #2
  4. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    Welcome to ASN.
    Have a word with DaveB1970,and also consider one of the following....VWRacing kit(which i have)or AP Racing,and possibly the Brembo kits,but speak to Dave first...he's the man.
    None of these will be cheap unfortunately,and you should expect up to £2k depending on what you choose.
    #3
  5. 0nemotion
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    0nemotion New Member

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    Appreciated the warm welcome, (although i had an a different user name a few years ago during the S4 era but can't remember it nor the email account.) But thanks all the same.

    I Will begin a poll in a few days once enough data has been collated.

    note: Whilst considering the questions below, please remember that few people that buy these cars drive them like you should on a driving test. They have been designed to be fast. The majority of users make them faster and therefore brakes should definitely improve to suit.

    Based on the popularly adopted tuning route of this model, please base the requirements for upgraded brakes on either the car being driven hard in standard form to being driven harder whilst having been tuned to circa "Stage 2 - Stage 2 +".

    Many people seem to get to a point where they can go no-furthur without extreme expense of Turbos, internals etc. Specifications of this magnitude result in enhanced braking solutions becoming an absolute necessity.

    questions to think about:
    • Are the oem brakes sufficient?
    • Are upgraded pads adequate?
    • Are upgraded discs/pads adequate?
    • Is an uprated master cylinder required?
    For Use with Std wheels:
    • Ideal disc thickness? (up to 30mm, 30-32mm, greater than 32mm)
    • Ideal disc size? (up to 330mm, 345mm, greater than 345mm)
    • 1 or 2 piece rotors required?
    • Additional cooling aids required?
    • 4,6 or 8 pot?
    • Forge Motorsport kit vs vw Racing Kit vs rs4/rs6 kit vs ttrs/rs3 kit vs ap racing kit vs hi spec kit??
    (Please suggest options, kits etc that you would like everyone to vote upon)

    For Use with Larger wheels:

    (Please suggest options, kits etc that you would like everyone to vote upon)


    Other suggestions like brake fund, bias changes etc etc also welcome.

    Attempting a definitive brake upgrade solution thread.
    #4
  6. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    My take on it is as follows:
    The OEM brakes are OK up to about Stg2,but after that the fade issues make them a bit of a liability,and I don't think that changing the pads really solves the problem.
    At Stg2+,you also have to consider the suspension and things like the Haldex controller,as there's no point in having a car that can go and stop,but won't tackle corners without giving you a fright.
    #5
  7. Adam.
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    Adam. Meow.

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  8. 0nemotion
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    0nemotion New Member

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    Adam, do you have specs and requirements for this setup?
    #7
  9. MartayMcFly
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    MartayMcFly Well-Known Member Regional Rep VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    The R8 rear brembo caliper will fit the standard 18" wheel over Ap Racing 362mm rotor (as above) but you need custom made carriers (from DaveB), and there are clearance issues between the caliper and spokes. That's where spacers will come in, and I don't know why you think they'd affect alignment etc but buy high quality ones (H&R hubcentric etc) and you'll be safe.

    The standard brake master cylinder will cope with 4-pots, but above that - if you want RS4 8-pots, for example - it will be better to look at uprating the entire system. The R8 rears are plug and play, but need carriers to fit the S3 hub (and I'm getting 8mm raisers to clear the larger discs too).
    #8
  10. c_w
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    c_w Active Member

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    Have you tracked your car in the UK? As the 'Ring isn't that hard on brakes compared to Oulton Park for example. A pad upgrade would probably be more than sufficient as the oem disc size is pretty good.
    #9
  11. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    I found the OEM setup was pretty near it's limits with Stg2+ on the roads as a few hefty stops would show......I did make the mistake of trying some aftermarket EBC pads,and wouldn't recommend this route.
    #10
  12. c_w
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    c_w Active Member

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    Perhaps the choice of pads is key - you can't write off all pads just because you bought one set that you didn't like! Some Pagid RS29s would be fine, although I have used EBC Yellows to good effect on my BMW. Some Carbone Lorraine RC6 pads would work for under £200. The choice for aftermarket fast/race pads are endless and it's the pad/disc combo that is perhaps the most important aspect to reduce the chances of early fade.

    Most people will not likely use all the performance of a good set of oem brakes + uprated pads, let alone big caliper/disc £2k+ supercar setup, but as said the ring isn't that bad for brakes, depends how quickly the car is driven though of course too.
    #11
  13. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    I'm not writing them all off,simply suggesting that the money spent on pads may be better put towards a better set of brakes.
    I've used Pagid,Ferodo and others before,and have a set of Ferodos on the car now,with which I'm very happy....I just think the OEM brakes are heavy,and fade-prone when pushed.
    #12
  14. c_w
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    c_w Active Member

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    Of course a lighter unsprung caliper setup is probably best but taking into account the OP's budget constraints a nice set of pads would fit the bill IMO.
    #13
  15. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    I agree.....in the short term it may be better to either stick with the OEM setup,or add aftermarket pads,but if he plans to "upgrade" the power,then better brakes will be on the way,and the suspension will need sorting as well.
    #14
  16. c_w
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    c_w Active Member

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    Depends how long term he wants to keep the car - I still think some upgraded pads are a fine way to go even with power increases. I've used my BMW on track quite hard and that has infamous poor BMW "M" brakes but it copes fine with standard 315mm discs and calipers but with uprated pads.
    #15
  17. Gryphon001
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    Gryphon001 Active Member

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    [Apr 9, 2012]
    If you are looking at just pads and rotors this is a good option...

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Obviously they don't look quite that nice for long. The ceramic pass are a great low/no dust option. But if you are looking for a slightly cheaper, more performance oriented option and dont care about dust just get the hawk HPA pads.
    #16
  18. S3RYE
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    S3RYE Interior Next!!

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    [Apr 10, 2012]
    THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED! TRUST ME!
    [​IMG]
    #17
  19. c_w
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    c_w Active Member

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    [Apr 11, 2012]
    There goes your chances of your S3 brake sale ;)

    Nice setup but oooh so pricey and can you honestly say you "need" AP racing brakes, I bet you don't! But they probably look ace behind the wheels and always have plenty in reserve.
    #18
  20. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Apr 11, 2012]
    Like everything,it depends on your needs,and for some cars,this sort of brake setup or similar,is going to be neccessary,but for the majority,it won't be.
    I think that up to Stg2 or possibly 2+,the stock system is OK,but above that,you're taking a bit of a chance that something that was adequate for 260bhp,is going to cut it above 400bhp.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2012
    #19
  21. S3RYE
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    S3RYE Interior Next!!

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    [Apr 11, 2012]
    seeing as i nearly rear ended someone after a rip on stock brakes YES!! + i'm tracking the car a lot this year with a trip to Nurburgring at the end of summer! all starting with Brands Hatch on my b day! 29th may! :beerchug:
    #20
  22. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Apr 11, 2012]
    Sounds like you have a good time planned...hope you enjoy it all!
    #21
  23. whitey
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    whitey Member

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    [Apr 11, 2012]
    alcons FTW
    #22
  24. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Apr 11, 2012]
    Apart from the cost(over £3k for the Alcon kit),there's not a lot to choose between these and APRacing,and I have had both on previous cars.
    They're excellent,tough,and won't fade.
    #23
  25. S3RYE
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    S3RYE Interior Next!!

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    [Apr 11, 2012]

    Indeed! cannot wait! i have my friend coming with me who worked at Brands as an instructor so should get some good avice and learning tips! ready for "THE RING"

    Just gotta sort this misfire issue out! just been on the phone with AMD they are pricing me up for KW v2's and new vavle springs!!

    Alex whats your opinion on the PCV mod. I know your running one but AMD dont seem to think its needed?? i also saw your car the other week when you were having your clutch done!
    #24
  26. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Apr 11, 2012]
    Thanks!
    I've got the Forge breather system on mine,and the amount of crud it collects is fascinating,when you consider where it would go otherwise,and when my engine was being rebuilt,the intake valves were cleaned up as well.
    The clutch is nearly done,but the mapping is being adjusted right now.
    #25
  27. Paullie
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    Paullie Banana Menace!

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    [Apr 11, 2012]
    Welcome to the forum, Onemotion! I'm with Alex on this and offer another vote for speaking to DaveB1970 to have him sort you out with some uprated brakes. He has lots of options to suit different budgets. I just received my R8 rear fitting kit from him about an hour ago. It will look the same as the kit pictured in Adam's post, except that mine are Brembo red, not white. I have saved myself a fortune by choosing to buy from Dave and I know I'll have total confidence in my car's braking power. If you need contact details etc for him or would like specs, etc, just let me know. :wub: xx
    #26
  28. Brett Butler
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    Brett Butler Member

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    [Apr 11, 2012]
    U say trip To NBR, but did not tell us your intentions once there, is it just a lap to say you have drove around it? or are you planning loads of laps?

    How old is S3? / Miles done etc.

    OEM brakes are pretty good on good condition Discs, and OEM Pads more than adequate for one lap or two laps of the ring, if you have never tracked or drove the ring before, the Ring by comparison is really hard, and anyone who drives it for the first time would be mad to drive it in a way that is going to cook your Brakes.

    Personally if you do not intend to remap the car, leave brakes alone, look at tyres first.

    Stage 2 and planning to race the car a bit sure will need brake upgrades.

    I have drove the Ring, and I tell you it is more scary than you can imagine, for a 1st timer, even more so if you have no Co Drivers that knows the track well.
    #27
  29. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Apr 11, 2012]
    If a regular tracker then save the money for the AP set up, a big initil outlay but you wil always get min 50% back when you come to sell the car by putting oem back on and selling the kit. Absolute no fade and very confidence inspiring - they ae back on my shopping list for some time in the future. I do around 6 track events per year and can confirm the oem set up struggles and all the uk tracks I have been on.

    I do think some braided hoses, 5.1 fluid and uprated pads will improve things but only an interim solution, we have to remember that a remapped S3 is a pretty quick car but stil damn heavy so the brakes have a lot to contend with. I do think they are fine for road use unless you are a total nut (if the cap fits LOL :) ).

    Dave B is very well known on several forums for his brake knowledge and also his ability to source reasonably priced parts, worth dropping him a pm.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2012
    #28
  30. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Apr 11, 2012]
    One of the S3's problems,as you say,is weight.

    It's 1500kgs,and that makes a lot of difference when it's travelling faster than it may have been intended.

    The GpN Escort I had a while back was barely 1300kgs,and running an APRacing system on that really showed the difference between good brakes,and shall we say,barely adequate brakes.
    #29
  31. c_w
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    c_w Active Member

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    [Apr 12, 2012]
    I would agree, but I suppose it all depends on budget, but I still believe a set of uprated pads dropped in on good discs is a fine setup for most usage. I was doing equivalent high 7min btg laps chasing GTRs, F430 Scud and Lambo LP560 etc in my Z3(M) with standard brakes and Carbone Lorraine race pads hehe
    #30
  32. S38P
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    S38P Member

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    [Apr 12, 2012]
    i think main problem with s3 brakes is the discs. they easily get bent after a track session.
    for a budget solution i would recommend you ss brake lines, good discs with good pads, brake fluid and brake cooling.
    you can remove fog lights and put a cooling duct.(u will need to cut the wheel arch liners)
    #31
  33. Adam.
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    Adam. Meow.

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    [Apr 12, 2012]
    Got any pics of them?

    Here's my black set :

    [​IMG]
    #32
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  34. jay6392
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    jay6392 Member

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    [Apr 12, 2012]
    #33
  35. Kelza
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    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 12, 2012]
    Hi ,they k sport look good, if Your going 8 pot like martin said , you will have to change the brake master cylinder,, ( will cope with 4-pots, but above that - if you want RS4 8-pots, for example - it will be better to look at uprating the entire system. The R8 rears are plug and play, but need carriers to fit the S3 hub (and I'm getting 8mm raisers to clear the larger discs too).
    This will be my new set up in a few weeks time ,can hardly wait ,, vw racing 4 pots.:)
    [​IMG]
    #34
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  36. jungleman
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    jungleman Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 13, 2012]
    if you're going Ksport, throw away the standard pads as they are shocking! when you order them spec the ferodo pads as they are an optional extra and well worth the extra money!
    #35
  37. jungleman
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    jungleman Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 13, 2012]
    now where have i seen those before ;)
    #36
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  38. jay6392
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    jay6392 Member

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    [Apr 13, 2012]
    i was going to keep the standard pads but now you said that i well have a look at what pads they got but yeah i thought they was a good find myself
    #37
  39. S3RYE
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    S3RYE Interior Next!!

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    [Apr 13, 2012]
    Im going to the ring with two other cars.

    I know that track because i play it on Gran Turismo? Isnt that good enough!?? :idea:

    no but seriously, i have a friend coming who has been several times. Who will co pilot. I am not going there to set times nor am i going there to drive like a goon! but i will be driving fairly fast once ive spent a day there.

    The car is Stage 2+ & if you want my opinion, The brakes ARE needed. I dont need to prove that to anyone. Like everyone is saying, the S3 is a heavy car. Even when it was stage 1 i could get the brakes so hot there was no brake power (pedal to the floor) and as mentioned nearly rear ended my mates M3.

    The main reason for use is going to be british track days, The Ring is more so i can say ive been there done that! Its also much longer so would probably take a week to learn ther track enough to be able to go gung ho on it! whereas a normal circuit can be quick to learn and therefore will be going faster. Hence the uprated brakes!

    the car will have toyo 888's for the summer period.
    #38
  40. Brett Butler
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    Brett Butler Member

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    [Apr 13, 2012]
    There is a video somewhere where a friend drove his M5 around while another friend played PS2 in the back set in the same time frame, PS2 won by a few secs, but the video was so funny, trying to play it in the back sit while going around the ring.

    I agree Brakes need sorting if you taking it seriously.

    I do recall comments playing the game is nothing to actually driving, though it is quite releastic in the track layout :)

    I would love another trip out there but all the guys I used to go with have all moved on, I just love taking photos there loads on my website
    #39
  41. S3RYE
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    S3RYE Interior Next!!

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    [Apr 13, 2012]
    link!?? sounds like a great vid!! Lol!

    yeh its been hard persuading my friends, although i think its cause there all under the thumb a bit haha!!

    show us some pics!!
    #40

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