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APR Vs. Revo - interesting reading

Discussion in 'Other Brands & Models' started by MarkFore, May 15, 2003.

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  1. MarkFore
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    MarkFore New Member

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  3. halegavin
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    halegavin Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif Ooops. Someone is in for an ticking off!
    #2
  4. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    Been deleted off tyresmoke!!! Apparantly they don't see it as a relevant discussion judging by comments from their admin team before it was deleted.
    #3
  5. jesters3
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    jesters3 Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [May 15, 2003]
    Yeah it's got a Revo Forum this one. As you say no point in deleting it but then some people don't want others to see it...for obvious reasons.
    #4
  6. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    Agreed Drill - so far it is just what we have from reading APR's website (nothing I could find on Revo's site).

    I saw as well that SuperChips have serial port programming now - I guess it's only a matter of time before every tuner develops their own technique of accessing the ECU via the serial port - makes sense to me as it seems a pretty cool way of getting to the ECU.
    #5
  7. DuncS3
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    DuncS3 Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]


    It may come over like that to others, but personally, i wouldn't get my car REVO'd. I know that nothing has been proved as to the REVO tuning causing sever damage to peoples cars, but it seems that they are the ones having big problems... Could jus be coincidence, but i dont see other tuners having such problems!?!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Rich, what are you on about? What big problems. Do you believe that other tuners dont have cars with problems? I ask this not in blind Revo loyalty as I have a Revo remap but if I had AMD or some other quality remap i woudl say the same thing...

    Dunc
    #6
  8. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    I think some of the places where it is alleged that it is known the code may cause engines & turbo's to blow up would be of interest to some as well.

    But yes, I think the prime concern is not the technology, but where it came from.
    #7
  9. Drystone
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    Drystone Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    This is all starting to leave a bitter taste in my mouth. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    I just hope it gets sorted asap (unlikely) and ALL these tuning companies can carry on developing and selling their products.

    It seems that any company or individual at the top of their profession/trade/sport is instantly a target for abuse and hassle. Comes down to one thing at the end of the day, jealousy. Just human nature I guess /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif.

    APR should just get on with bringing out their own rival serial tuning product. At the moment how can they say Revo have pinched their product when they don't have an equivalent product in the marketplace.

    APR could then hit Revo where it hurts, by taking away sales. The only winner in this case would be us, the consumer.

    All a courtcase will do is line the pockets of the lawyers.

    IMHO.

    Christian
    #8
  10. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [May 15, 2003]
    A good point well put! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #9
  11. AL_B
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    AL_B Active Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Drystone said:

    All a courtcase will do is line the pockets of the lawyers.

    IMHO.

    Christian

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You need to get Jane to become a barrister quick!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

    AL
    #10
  12. Drystone
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    Drystone Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    Nah, I wouldn't fancy her in a wig. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #11
  13. Drill
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    Drill Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    The Americans sue for anything anyway so it isn't earth shattering to hear about this.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    DUDE, that's SLANDER!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burningmad.gif

    You'll be hearing from my lawyer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #12
  14. Moresauce
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    Moresauce Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    Think we should all take a deep breath on this one, it does seem as though some sites are deleted threads with this info on it and most are not. IMHO it should stay because it is public infomrationa dn I for one would what to know it regardless of the tuner involved as we are all potential customers.

    Let's not slag off others sites though...if they want to stoop to that level that is fine but don't lets spoil this awesome forum!
    #13
  15. simont
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    simont Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Drill said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    The Americans sue for anything anyway so it isn't earth shattering to hear about this.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    DUDE, that's SLANDER!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burningmad.gif

    You'll be hearing from my lawyer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Whoopee - a free trip to Cuba coming up!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Anyway, what are these 'Legal Reasons' for not being able to reveal this person's identity? Is he not man enough to account for his actions?? Now this and recent events begin to concern me.

    Christian, I agree totally - I should have studied law really instead of Logistics/IT. Then I could have had an excuse to hide my receeding hair. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #14
  16. bjacks
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    bjacks Member

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    [May 15, 2003]
    I'm sure this sort of thing happens all over the place At the end of the day, who really gives a toss? If Revo hadn't been set up then the chances are that we wouldn't yet be using this technology - where ever it came from, so, as someone else already mentioned, we're the winners here.

    Personally, I'm not interested in the politics and prefer to let the goods speak for themselves, being engine tuning or internet forums.

    I'm also not biased towards any company either, having both AmD and Revo modify my cars with grin-inducing results /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    Ben


    #15
  17. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    [May 16, 2003]
    At the risk of starting a war.... I feel the need to get this off my chest to show I am not blindly biased in any direction!

    For me (and this is just my personal opinion) there are a few issues here.

    One is the way that Revo have allegedly used APR's code in their own products (if they haven't then fair play, if they have then that's pretty out of order).

    Second is the alleged attitude and integrity of the team running Revo - statements from emails allegedly written by them stating that they intend to release code that may well sh*g a turbo, but that's okay 'cos it will get replaced on warranty, statements about credit fraud, gun running and describing themselves as having "moral flexibility".

    Third is the allegation that APR money was used to set up Revo - used in marketing etc.

    Fourth is the allegation that the Revo team were selling APR units with licenses, while not paying APR for them.

    All of these are just allegations, and that is just my own understanding of the situation having scanned through the witness statements. And all of this has come from APR - we don't have access to any of the documentation from Revo so sofar this is all very one-sided.

    In addition to the legal disputes I also reserve judgement on the effectiveness of the Revo code upgrade on S3's and TT's as I haven't actually seen any RR outputs that show an appropriate increase in bhp + torque.

    I have met Mitchell and got on fine with him - in fact had a few nights out drinking with him and never saw any of this. I also saw a couple of messages from him that really surprised me and showed me another side of him.

    IF (and it's "IF") these allegations are proven to be true then it's pretty shabby behaviour. IF (and it's still "IF") they are proven to be untrue, then crack on!

    I think the technique of using the serial port to program is a good idea, as do many tuners as shown by the fact other tuners are starting to use this technique (eg Superchips), and the idea of not making any physical change to the ECU is also great.
    #16
  18. Pincher
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    Pincher New Member

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    [May 16, 2003]
    I have it on good authority that Revo will be putting across their side of the story soon which could well cause people to re-avaluate their opinion on a (so far) one-sided story
    #17
  19. gabster03
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    gabster03 New Member

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    [May 17, 2003]
    GolfTTish

    If you look on the defendents section of the first UK High Court Multi Track claim form and APR Europe and REVO are named as co-defendents along with the four listed names, I assume they are the owners of APR Europe and now REVO.

    I know it says in the cliam form that the claim is for only £15,000 but I think this is the minimum limit which defines a case going from County Court to High Court. As this case has gone to high court the minimum payout on the prosecution winning their claim sounds like it will be £15,000, but I suppose this could go a lot higher. Anyone an expert on the Woolfe reforms.

    Guys

    You should watch what is said in here. You could find yourself implicating yourself to appear as a witness in said case, I have testified in lots of cases as a witness and it is not a nice experiance.

    Also any loose lipped statement could have ramifications for this site if allegations on here are proved wrong at a later date. Once solictors get involved you are always looking at expense and heartache for someone. Please be careful you dont know who is looking in here.
    #18
  20. scoTTy
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    scoTTy Active Member

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    [May 17, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Simon said:Still I suppose this has got to be good for AMD/MTM and al the others not involved.

    Simon

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm sure that fact has nothing to do with why this is suddenly over all the forums where people alligned with some other tuning company(ies) are rubbing their hands with glee and adding fuel to the fire. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif
    #19
  21. simont
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    [May 17, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    scoTTy said:

    I'm sure that fact has nothing to do with why this is suddenly over all the forums where people alligned with some other tuning company(ies) are rubbing their hands with glee and adding fuel to the fire. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes I agree. very disturbing this - puts me off the idea of going to the 'Other' tuners if this is their behaviour. very unprofessional IMO.
    #20
  22. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    [May 17, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    simont said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    scoTTy said:

    I'm sure that fact has nothing to do with why this is suddenly over all the forums where people alligned with some other tuning company(ies) are rubbing their hands with glee and adding fuel to the fire. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes I agree. very disturbing this - puts me off the idea of going to the 'Other' tuners if this is their behaviour. very unprofessional IMO.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What behaviour is that? Nobody has posted on this forum as any tuner so I am not sure what "behaviour" you are talking about.

    All we do is allow users to post their thoughts on Revo. We have not moderated anybody's pro-Revo comments, or their anti-Revo comments - everybody is entitled to an opinion.

    We only moderate posts that may cause personal offence or have potential legal ramifications.
    #21
  23. Adam
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    Adam Member

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    [May 17, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Arson Panda said:
    Well I think it's very relevant and any forum deleting is is showing how biased they are, it's disgraceful and it's why audi-sport.net is unbiased

    [/ QUOTE ]

    come on John, you are having a laugh - everyone has a natural bias (often a favouritism for their own chip) but this site is AmD funded and you work for AmD - I would say this site has some owner bias as does TSN and there are a lot of people who post on both that are fairly neutral.

    I can almost hear you smiling at all of this anti-Revo propoganda and why not - they are competition to AmD and business is business

    personally I think the wording of the APR document is fairly unprofessional but I know feck all about this first hand (like 99% of you) - either a disgruntled employer been sussed out or something illegal has occurred

    I'll wait to see what happens in court
    #22
  24. Adam
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    Adam Member

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    [May 17, 2003]
    and btw the thread IS on TSN in Audi chat
    #23
  25. RoberTT
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    RoberTT New Member

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    [May 17, 2003]
    All forums have there favoured remaps
    If it was as cut and dried as the documents say I would of thought an injuction would of been inssued stopping Revo from using their programs until the law suit has been finished,this can be done in a matter of weeks not months down the line. as this hasn't i would say that it isn't as cut and dried as the littriture would say.
    If people think they are on a sticky wicket they will post evidence on the Internet to try and discredit the other company " Zymol V Mark (swissol).
    Seems also that the same person is visiting forums and posting APRvREVO,infact i see he doesn't frequent the forums he is posting on which could be construde that he is not posting for the reason of be informative but to try and cause one company or both harm,
    just my thoughts
    (none bias revo owner)
    #24
  26. Crafty
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    Crafty Member

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    [May 17, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Adam said:
    come on John, you are having a laugh - everyone has a natural bias (often a favouritism for their own chip) but this site is AmD funded and you work for AmD -

    [/ QUOTE ]

    AmD funded in that they are a sponsor yes.
    This forum is NOT a marketing machine for AmD - I can assure if it was I'd be the first to leave!
    If you talk to Scott he is *quite* clear that the company doesn't want to get involved in *any* forum - fair enough!

    John works for AmD. That doesn't mean that anything posted here ( or on any other forum ) is on behalf of AmD - its his own opinion, as I think his sig clearly states.

    If you think this site is anti revo suggest you go read a few threads on Club18t!

    #25
  27. GolfTTish
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    GolfTTish Member

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    [May 18, 2003]
    Dunc
    it was garry h.
    And of course he just found the link on APR's website with no prompting from anyone we might know?
    #26
  28. Administrators
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    [May 18, 2003]
    If you are trying to accuse me of something why not just say it? yawn! get over the fact there are more people than just me who don't have the same opinion as you, yes it's true!
    #27
  29. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    [May 19, 2003]
    Calm down guys....

    MarkFore posted the link on this site, and others, as he felt it would be of interest to people considering having their cars tuned by either of the companies concerned.

    Simon - thanks for the positive(ish /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) comments. We do try to be neutral, and if it seems that we try too hard it's because it is hard to do! However hard we try we continue to be accused of being anti-Revo, and pro-AmD.

    Crafty is quite right in saying that although AmD are **ONE** of our sponsors (we have others including QuattroSports and other tuners in the pipeline), we are not blindly pro-AmD. It happens to be a company that the admin team have the most experience of, but have we made any comments against any other tuner, other than to point out potential pitfalls in the Revo product - Revo is a hot topic at the moment (and was even before the APR papers were published), and therefore there is going to be a lot of talk about it. Some pro, some anti, and some just trying to see both sides of the story.

    This is a discussion forum where we **DISCUSS** current topics of interest - people post their **PERSONAL** opinions. If they want to post on behalf of their company and their companies views, they should do so using a company login.

    Can we all take a deep breath please - no more digs (hidden or otherwise) at John or any other of the Admin/Moderator team - that is not what this forum is about.

    If it carries on like this we will just end up banning all talk of tuning, and none of us wants that - after all that is what most of us are interested in!

    Please re-read the Audi-Sport Guidelines, and help us make this an enjoyable forum to visit, with frank and open (but not offensive or insulting) discussion.

    Thanks
    Jo

    #28
  30. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [May 29, 2003]
    I do find these discussions interesting, it would seem that a lot of people have the impression that the major chip tuners have nothing better to do than go round backstabbing each other. From my experience (Non biased) I get completely the opposite idea, from what I know is it is a very close circle who do speak to each other more regularly than is probably thought. I was quite surprised whilst standing on the RSD/Oettinger stand chatting about my new chip /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif that someone asked about a program not in their range and without hesitation they pointed them to AmD/Sportec.

    If anyone asks which chip to go for I will always say Oettinger, but I think that the latest craze is the Revo program. Why do I say craze, well it is the most convenient and you get to demo it beforehand so until the rest catch up it will be the most popular. I hear many good and many bad things of Revo, which is hardly surprising considering the amount of cars they must be tuning at the moment!


    Just my opinion.
    #29
  31. Administrators
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    [Aug 13, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Pincher said:
    I have it on good authority that Revo will be putting across their side of the story soon which could well cause people to re-avaluate their opinion on a (so far) one-sided story

    [/ QUOTE ]

    After three months I think your 'source' "on good authority was talking out of his.....
    #30
  32. Administrators
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    [Aug 13, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Gambba said:
    I do find these discussions interesting, it would seem that a lot of people have the impression that the major chip tuners have nothing better to do than go round backstabbing each other. From my experience (Non biased) I get completely the opposite idea, from what I know is it is a very close circle who do speak to each other more regularly than is probably thought. I was quite surprised whilst standing on the RSD/Oettinger stand chatting about my new chip /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif that someone asked about a program not in their range and without hesitation they pointed them to AmD/Sportec.

    If anyone asks which chip to go for I will always say Oettinger, but I think that the latest craze is the Revo program. Why do I say craze, well it is the most convenient and you get to demo it beforehand so until the rest catch up it will be the most popular. I hear many good and many bad things of Revo, which is hardly surprising considering the amount of cars they must be tuning at the moment!


    Just my opinion.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The thing that annoys me as an enthusiast is that it's advertised as a demo but in fact once you've had the demo your car doesn't revert to how it was originally, I think the wording should be changed.
    #31
  33. RizS3
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    [Aug 15, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Riz I think you are completely missing the point here!
    And Revo certainly were NOT the first to offer serial programming up the OBDII port, another false claim!


    [/ QUOTE ] ooops i should have said REVO are the first to offer this technology in the UK and make it a sucess.

    Like i said ive seen other forums and read alot of info..... and most of the forums are filled with people with REVO tuned cars......... ok like it has been said before not all people use the internet but based on the sites! REVO tuned cars out-number alot of the others.... to me that shows that the product in question has been a marketing sucess........ ok maybe there are holes in the product........ i still think this APR vs REVO debate is pointless...... there as so many factors....... im not trying to argue..... but this is a APR Vs REVO post.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif
    #32
  34. Administrators
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    [Aug 15, 2003]
    And for those who can't be bothered to do all of that this is what you'll see, I don't think that looks like it's standard to me at all!

    I know VAG are aware of this.

    #33
  35. Administrators
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    [Aug 15, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Riz S3 said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Riz I think you are completely missing the point here!
    And Revo certainly were NOT the first to offer serial programming up the OBDII port, another false claim!


    [/ QUOTE ] ooops i should have said REVO are the first to offer this technology in the UK and make it a sucess.

    Like i said ive seen other forums and read alot of info..... and most of the forums are filled with people with REVO tuned cars......... ok like it has been said before not all people use the internet but based on the sites! REVO tuned cars out-number alot of the others.... to me that shows that the product in question has been a marketing sucess........ ok maybe there are holes in the product........ i still think this APR vs REVO debate is pointless...... there as so many factors....... im not trying to argue..... but this is a APR Vs REVO post.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ah but this hasn't gone off topic, this was a reply to the question from golfbygone, the facts are there.

    Shall we start a new topic then?

    And no I disagree lots of tuners see lots of cars, most of revo's work has come through the forums, there are thousands of tuned cars out there and most of them aren't revo!
    #34
  36. RizS3
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    RizS3 Member

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    [Aug 15, 2003]
    I thought REVO Technik had the software encrypted so it couldnt be read?
    #35
  37. Ram
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    [Aug 15, 2003]
    OK,

    It's a bit confusing - so - here's what to do...

    Download the Batronix Prog-Studio as above and install it on your PC - set it up to use the first option (EPROM ICON)

    Next, download the two zipfiles that John has posted and unzip them to your desktop.

    032.std is the manufacturer's original standard code
    YL2.std is the Revo 5-hour trial code which has supposedly reverted the car back to standard

    Open the YL2.std file using the Batronix editor (Select *.* Files of all type) then look at the "DEC Address" numbered 1074788.

    Here you can see that the REVO code is still in the car's ECU and that it is traceable...

    Check the same area on the Standard (Seat original) file and you'll see that the area is blank (FF).

    This is what John is on about - Revo say it reverts back to standard - it doesn't - it just caps the torque on the vehicle....

    Hope this helps...

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    #36
  38. Administrators
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    [Aug 15, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Riz S3 said:
    I thought REVO Technik had the software encrypted so it couldnt be read?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    appears not!
    #37
  39. RizS3
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    [Aug 15, 2003]
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif enough of all this.... i cant take anymore.

    So now this is out in the open how comes you didnt post the information before...... all the potential REVO cutomers might have gone elsewhere? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush2.gif

    Also what is stopping me now opening the original file of the standard ECU and altering it and saving it? Can i do this with the Batronix application?

    Cheers for the info /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #38
  40. Administrators
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    Administrators Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    [Aug 15, 2003]
    Yes you could and if you bought the hardware you could download the code yourself.
    Like I say I've provided all the links I invite you to go and see for yourself.
    #39
  41. RizS3
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    [Aug 15, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Yes you could and if you bought the hardware you could download the code yourself.
    Like I say I've provided all the links I invite you to go and see for yourself.



    [/ QUOTE ] yup ive had a look and it seems quiet strange why REVO wouldnt encrypt their code? Never mind that doesnt intrest me.......... i`ll be doing some extensive research with a vag specialist (name witheld for legal reasons) on one of their customers cars....... this way i can confirm for myself like you said.

    Keep up the good work.
    #40
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