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Another hybrid conversion thread....

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Welly, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    3" TIP initial Development:

    early picture from last night when I had 10mins
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
  2. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    X factor= Fail
    Quality time with GF = Win.
  3. Dane
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    Dane Had an 8L S3, a B5 RS4 now I have a B8 S4

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    That'll help!
  4. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Well, I had an interesting night last night.....

    On the way home from Bill's I may have given it a little bit of cherry down the A38 on the way home :whistle:

    Anyway, overtaking a lorry, all the power died. And I mean died.

    First thought was limp mode. The original version of the map that's on there did this a few times and just went a big wiggy. EPC light would come on and the ignition would need to be power cycled to fix.

    The EPC light was on, so I rolled to a stop and turned it off. Turned it back on - EPC light still there, engine running on 2 cylinders by the sounds of things.

    Not good.

    To make matters worse, I had the girlfriend with me after picking her up. She's always complaining that the car never works and is always broken, so obviously when this happened, she went up the bloody wall... :-(.

    Tried ignition off again, checked liquid gauge, 2 fault codes found. Cleared them. Started it again, faults back immediately. :(

    Now, this would be really useful if you could tell what the faults are, but on liquid, all you get is a number... Out comes the laptop from the boot with trusty VAG COM cable (always kept in the car from previous incidents).

    Two fault codes regarding the throttle body... :think:. Reminds me of a problem I had once before.

    Popped the bonnet, had a fiddle around..... the throttle body plug had come off.

    The sigh of relief was not dissimilar to a 007P.

    Plugged it in, and off I went. Happy days.
  5. DaveA3
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    DaveA3 Audi A-Trizzle!

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    bloody hell welly i thought it had all balls up half way through reading that. glad it was something simple.

    nice build again mate and you must be well chuffed with that power.

    Question: Is it all you had hoped for?

    Dave :D
  6. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Very interesting thread :thumbsup:

    Is there any advantage to be had by using a 3" TIP when the turbo intake is a smaller diameter?
  7. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    That remains very much to be seen... Will be dyno'd after fitting to see if there is any benefit.

    As a general rule, the more free the flow, the better power made.
  8. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Very much so dude.

    It's nice to drive it having put in so much time, effort (lots) and money.
  9. Lee Goodall
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    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Yeah, I'm just not really convinced that the smaller diameter intake on the turbo wont act as a sort of bottle neck.

    I'm just about to fit a Garrett turbo with 2 1/2" intake and 3" MAF. I have loads of smaller diameter silicone and aluminium but nothing 3".

    I'll be very interested to see the figures with your 3" TIP fitted.
  10. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Am i been thick here, but arnt the silicone tips 3"? if so what is the idea behind it, so it cant suck in?
  11. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    The adapter plate that Bill has made isn't just a 76mm - 51mm step down. The sides of the adapter actually slope inwards.

    When fitted, it actually looks much like a Garrett unit to be fair.

    When fitted to the K04, it looks very much like this, well, the intake at least.:

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
  12. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Yes, Forge etc TIPs are 3" (76mm)..... At the top by the MAF.

    They then taper down to 51mm (K04 inlet size) with a tight, and small, bend just before entry.

    76mm to 51mm is quite a drop... Think of the effect of pouring water into a funnel too fast.

    The idea behind this being that the pipe is 3" from top to bottom, with a 3" bend, allowing greater flow, and less pressure.

    This combined should allow a greater volume of air to flow through, whilst creating less pressure.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
  13. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    But still bottle neck at the 51mm end....lol
    So it is the bend only that is going to make a difference if any..
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
  14. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Only at the compressor inlet, which is the same for any turbo. The K04 3" inlet adapter plate means that the pipe is 3" until it actually mates with the turbo. The adapter plate has the taper inside. A photo will help.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
  15. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Yes, as well as the fact the bend isn't directly before the compressor inlet, and the fact that the pipe will be 3" all the way down, from top to inlet.

    The standard TIPs are 3" for about 1.5 inches before beginning to reduce down.

    Less restriction can only be a good thing at the end of the day, turbo engines benefit from as little restriction as possible.

    Ultimately results from fitting and testing will prove/disprove the theory, however people have been using them on 1.8T engines with hybrids, with very good results.

    I'm sure Bill will pipe up with a better explanation than I can give when he's on here.
  16. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    If the comp inlet was a bottle neck then turbo makers would make it bigger... its a compressor, its smaller so its compresses stuff... its uses a much larger volume of air then compresses it... (spot the theme...) turbos used in motorsport running MAF less generally have just an air filter bunged straight on the inlet...

    All about flow... larger diameter, more flow, slower airspeed, less friction, less heat... all good....

    <tuffty/>
  17. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    I cant get my head around this at the moment. You will only be able to get a certain volume of air through a 51mm diameter pipe. If anything wont it slow the rate of air down as you will have a bigger volume of air coming in (if the pipe has a constant diameter of 3") and then the air flow is being decelerated quite a bit as it cannot suck through the same volume of air at the same rate which it can through a 3" pipe.

    Sorry if thats doesnt make sense or confusing lol

    Nathan
  18. Barks
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    Barks Member

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    How is the Adapter clamping onto the Turbo inlet?? Is that a small Grub screw I can see in the photo??
  19. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Ok.... the turbo will only ever 'suck' as much air as it needs or can cope with.... why make it more difficult for it to suck, smaller pipework = more difficult, larger pipework = less difficult simples...

    <tuffty/>
  20. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Why is inbound air flow deceleration a bad thing? Because it's not moving as fast? As far as the compressor is concerned, that is is irrelevant. It can only compress as much air as it can compress.

    Freeing up the intake track means it is easier for the turbo to pull it in, not to mention it being cooler.
  21. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Yarp. Good spot.
  22. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Ye, but you aint going to get any more air flow or more g/s going into the turbo how ever big the pipe is as it all got to go through a 51mm diameter. Wont the air flow just start to choke when it comes to the compressor inlet as there is more air that can be drawn through. I might be completely wrong but cant understand the point unless the compressor inlet had a 3" diameter.

    In motorsport they have air filter as close to the turbo so the air have less distance to travel ini.

    Nathan
  23. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Meaning less restriction....

    Nobody is saying it is going to give extra flow top end, because if any, it would be a small amount. Thats not what this is about.

    It will, however, help spool time and aid in everything getting going quicker, resulting in better power through the rev range.

    It should also help the turbo produce boost for longer.
  24. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    So what you are saying is if the turbo manufacturers designed their turbos properly then this discussion about a 3" TIP would be moot?

    As I have said in a previous post, the turbo will only ever get as much air as it can take/want... this is BY DESIGN... a larger inlet pipe will mean the compressor has less restriction to draw air against... its as simple as that... it really is.... it may not lead to higher airflow over all but it will alter the power curve and effect the power delivery... on a larger turbo it would potentially improve spool, less relevant on a K04 maybe...

    Comparing the power graphs between Welly's car and Speedy Steves car you can see the affect Wellys large port and larger FMIC and pipework... everything happens sooner... the end power outputs are similar but the curves are different... Welly has a broader spread of power (IIRC)..

    Really don't know what the issue is here...

    <tuffty/>
  25. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    ...oh and for what its worth... size of the comp housing has little/no affect on the compressor wheels ability to compress and flow air... my GT3071r has the comp housing from the GT28 range modified to suit the 3071 comp wheel... flows the same as the larger housing..

    I quote from Garretts tech page..
    <tuffty/>
  26. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Im not saying it an issue just can get my head around it. I was just looking for a explaination which I can understand the point to what wellys trying to do.

    Nathan
  27. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    I think what he is trying to do is see what difference a 3" TIP will make when fitted to his car...

    <tuffty/>
  28. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    LOL, by gum he's cracked it.

    Like I said, others have had very good results from doing exactly this, and I am interested to see the difference.

    On the dyno, under full spool, you can actually hear the compressor struggling to get air in. Less now with a silicone TIP, but it is still there. This says to me that there is not enough physical volume in the pipe to allow the air through at the rate the compressor wants it.

    Why make it fight for it?
  29. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    I know what he is doing, just cant understand the point....

    I think Wellys car would beneifit from a uprated actuator as well as a TIP. Be able to run bit more torque and sustain boost a bit better ini.

    Nathan
  30. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Guys how am I making it a fight or an issue...............

    I just cannot understand the point in what your trying to do and was looking for an explaination which makes sense TO ME.

    Can you upload a link please Welly were I can read the results people have got.

    Nathan
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
  31. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Actually no... having a potentially stiffer actuator on this particular turbo (K04 hybrid) would make overall boost control worse... thats from experience... Bill will no doubt chip in when he is free to validate this but the last thing Welly's turbo needs is a different actuator...

    <tuffty/>
  32. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    It's not the actuator causing the boost loss higher up the revs. The actuator is fine, brand new CR Series. Also, it's on manual boost control.

    The boost peak has deliberately been left down. One reason. Less heat generation. The car made more power with less boost, as the reduced heat meant more timing could be added.

    The reason that the boost falls away towards the top of the rev band is simply that it gets to the point where the engine is consuming all the airflow that the turbo can produce. These turbos, even the hybrids, can't sustain 22+ psi of boost towards the redline, as the engine uses all the air that is thrown at it.

    Have a look at the K04 Stage 1 and CR Hybrid comparison graphs. You can see that the hybrid holds onto boost much better than the K04.

    After 5500 rpm, the turbo is at max capacity, it just doesn't have any more to give.
  33. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    In fact, the actuator, as it came from CR was set to 1 bar. Bill adjusted the preload to drop it down to 9psi for better boost control.
  34. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    I think you will find that he is doing it because he can, Bill is willing to test the results on his dyno and he can present to you the findings... its called product development and Welly (as it happens) is a willing and able (mostly) participant...

    While you may not see the benefits of this as yet, once its been built and once its been tested on a car that has had (lets face it) quite a bit of dyno time, the results (good or bad) will be posted up... If there are any real world gains from using this TIP then it will no doubt be made available through Bill or if you wish to make something similar yourselves...

    <tuffty/>
  35. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    And that's 100% fair enough matey. :thumbsup:.

    Moving on, I don't have a link to hand, however, let me say this.

    An SCN user came to see Bill a few weeks back with his hybridised 225 engine. Running same specs as me pretty much. With one exception....

    You guessed it, a 3" TIP.

    Now, this car made extraordinary power from very little boost. The figures that spring to mind are 308 bhp/292 ftlbs. All this was made from a peak of 20psi.

    The TIP may be irrelevant, however I think not. All the theory behind this makes sense. To me anyway.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
  36. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Back to the 51mm if it is flanged down to a 51 from 3" surley part of the air is hitting a brick wall(metal) and rebounding causing all sorts of disturbance....where as the gradual slope will make it more "ram air"....
  37. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    As I have already said dude, the inside of the adapter tapers down to 51mm. Meaning that a K04, with this 3" adapter fitted, looks very much like this:

    [​IMG]

    It has a smooth taper from 76mm to 51mm. The pipe fits around the outside.
  38. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Nathan, noone said you was fighting, Welly said, "Why make IT fight for it" Meaning Air in
  39. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    ^^ What he said, I didn't even know what you meant....!
  40. Dane
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    Dane Had an 8L S3, a B5 RS4 now I have a B8 S4

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    [Oct 26, 2010]
    Seems like a good idea and is at least worth testing, if it doesn't work then hey it doesn't work. As it's shown good results on another car why not try it out.

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