Advanced key - easy theft
- Thread starter Twizzler
- Start date
I don't think an OBD lock is the answer really. If they've got that far, a small lock isn't going to put them off. I was wondering about a fake OBD port (moving the real one elsewhere) that puts a large current down anything you plug into it and fries their equipment... though you'd have to remember to switch them back when you take the car back to the dealers!!
You're the one berating everyone for causing "hysteria and panic" (your words) based on no evidence, yet you casually toss in sentences with the word "fact" preceding them, based on no statistics nor fact!
Are you now saying that an equal number of cars would have been stolen, if they had conventional keys?
Head definitely in sand
References for cars stolen in 2012 using technology to bypass/clone Keyless Entry cars::
"Between 1 January 2012 and 1 March 2012, 154 BMW vehicles have been stolen from across the Midlands Region."
"The thief then enters the vehicle when the coast is clear and uses a device on the vehicle which programs a blank key."
from: Warwickshire Police Press Release: http://www.safer-neighbourhoods.co....cles-without-keys-across-the-midlands-region/
“The thief uses a device on the vehicle which programmes a blank key”
from BBC Watchdog http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/jB77dRvB9C6PQHX46htHpy/bmw-open-to-car-theft
"The thieves accomplished this by accessing the BMW OBD port in the footwell by breaking the glass, reaching in and using a device to reprogram a blank key fob."
"BMW doesn't seem to want to admit they have a problem, even though over 300 cars have been stolen in March 2012 in a single UK county."
from: http://www.autocar.co.uk/forum/any-other-business/stolen-bmw-1m-cctv and
http://www.networkworld.com/article...r-theft--3-minutes-to-steal-keyless-bmws.html
"Most of the cars were being taken by using hi-tech gadgets available through the internet that could steal security data from a targeted car’s on-board computer and programme it onto blank keys." - West Midlands Police
from: http://www.expressandstar.com/news/...ds-police-recover-stolen-top-cars-worth-2-5m/
"BMW had a significant security problem with some of its models produced between 2007 and 2011, which made them fairly easy to steal for high-tech criminals armed with the right electronic gadgets."
from: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/crime/bmw
In this particular period (early 2012), with those particular models, it's pretty irrefutable that a BMW keyless car, was far easier to steal, than one with a conventional key.
No, more cars are stolen because they leave their keys accessible within the house and I have provided evidence that say that the easiest way to steal a car is too steal the keys, not go around equipped with a laptop and the knowledge to bypass the security. Most burglaries happen by the thief driving off in your car with all your expensive possessions onboard, it is made so easy for them.Your figures of cars stolen in the Midlands, and I am surprised there are that many keyless bmw's up there, by this method, compared to the total number of cars stolen over a year by having the keys, is tiny and insignificant.
What the 'have not's' can't seem to realise that since keyless systems and increase security have come in, car thefts have plumeted and car theft, in the hands of organised criminals has had to become more sophisticated.
It seems to me, perhaps, because they haven't got something, in this thread, an invention and distortion of the facts take place and panic seems to set in. People these days seem to form an opinion based upon little facts and because 'they heard a man in pub taking about it', or in Facebook, or even read it in forum lol,when, in reality, if they bothered to actually think about it the penny would drop...
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No you haven't! That pie chart isn't credible, isn't sourced, isn't referenced, isn't dated. Where is it from? Who is the source? Who did the research?
Are you aligning yourself with shoddy flaky evidence, only used by the sort of tabloid that you denigrate?
There are little to none up-to-date/recent statistics showing methods of stealing a car, you haven't found any.
Oh dear, oh dear. Do at least try to compare apples with apples. A keyless M3, M5, X5 stolen will be a tiny figure compared with all cars stolen (which includes Fiesta, Focus, Corsa), to start with they already represent a tiny fraction of the total cars. The correct comparison would be to compare keyless M3's, M5's X5's etc. with their keyed equivalents, then make the comparison. Then quote those figures.
Not trot out a meaningless statement comparing a percentage between keyless high-end BMW's in the West Midlands in one month, compared to the total number of cars stolen countrywide in one year.
Right back at you
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"They're just jealous because they dont have it" i will admit i emitted an audible lol reading that. Really?
Its not just man in the pub. All the stories about theft have been from credible sources. Not an excel pie chart special that looks like a gcse it project. I mean the problem is going to be covered on watch dog. Its clearly an issue.
Its not just man in the pub. All the stories about theft have been from credible sources. Not an excel pie chart special that looks like a gcse it project. I mean the problem is going to be covered on watch dog. Its clearly an issue.
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The theft of keys from a house isn't reported as car crime apparently. The last paragraph ......
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/crime/insight-and-analysis/trends-and-analysis-from-the-figures/
If you cant be bothered reading the whole (very good) article here is the relevant bit:
It’s also worth noting that, while our study has provided detail analysis of more than 500,000 car crime records, our census doesn’t include theft of car keys in the course of a house burglary. That’s because house crimes are recorded separate, regardless of what the motive may be.
Also official ONS figures for car crime to June 2014;
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime...g-june-2014.html#tab-Theft-offences-–-Vehicle
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/crime/insight-and-analysis/trends-and-analysis-from-the-figures/
If you cant be bothered reading the whole (very good) article here is the relevant bit:
It’s also worth noting that, while our study has provided detail analysis of more than 500,000 car crime records, our census doesn’t include theft of car keys in the course of a house burglary. That’s because house crimes are recorded separate, regardless of what the motive may be.
Also official ONS figures for car crime to June 2014;
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime...g-june-2014.html#tab-Theft-offences-–-Vehicle
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Sorry, I didn't realise it was against the law to discuss the same thing more than once!
Though I did notice this post from you veeeight:
See, you do speak sense sometimes!
See, you do speak sense sometimes!
Seeing as someone mentioned BBC Watchdog,
here's the 2012 Episode/Clip covering the BMW issue at the time:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01ms174#programme-broadcasts
and here's tomorrow night's episode:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04nchtj
(though not sure if the content is about keyless specifically, or some other security flaw)
here's the 2012 Episode/Clip covering the BMW issue at the time:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01ms174#programme-broadcasts
and here's tomorrow night's episode:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04nchtj
(though not sure if the content is about keyless specifically, or some other security flaw)
Christ I was forgetting, on a lighter note, Friday is Halloween Night, where we put fear into children through myths and superstition, spot the similarities? - HAPPY HALLOWEEN - all. Now what is that man doing on my driveway dressed as a Zombie and holding a laptop? You're too early come back on Friday, beside my car will be there then not this A4 thing...
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It's quite easy to relocate the OBD port as it unclips with a bit of screwdriver wiggling. You can then tie it back in the loom behind the dash or use your imagination with it for even more security. (I'm not claiming this will prevent all forms of keyless car theft).
0B1001001
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You seem to be under the illusion that keyless equates to increased security yet the fact is that with keyless, there's an additional method of stealing a car not present with a normal key. By any sane persons definition, this equates to a decrease in the security.
You don't seem to be acknowledging this, which is why this thread's bouncing along so nicely...
Car key cryptography does vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. JLR used to use the KeeLoq block cipher. Not sure what they use now, but they does appear to be an issue with New RR http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/oct/27/thieves-range-rover-keyless-locking
I would also say that according to UK Office for National Statistics, car theft has fallen from 318,000 in 2002 to 77,500 last year (2013).
I would also say that according to UK Office for National Statistics, car theft has fallen from 318,000 in 2002 to 77,500 last year (2013).
I don't think anyone here is disputing that in overall numbers, car theft is reducing.
Of that 77,500
Are there any statistics that show the proportion of keyless cars stolen vs, conventional keys of the same model?
For the last say 3 years?
Of that 77,500
Are there any statistics that show the proportion of keyless cars stolen vs, conventional keys of the same model?
For the last say 3 years?
I'll throw this in the mix:
There was a spate of Audi thefts in Aberdeen last year, most were with the emergency plastic key left in the glovebox, the rest were with keys stolen from the property. These were thefts by little joyriding scroats and not professional thieves. They were caught after boasting about it in Facebook.
Last month 3 high-end cars (R8, etc) were stolen from Aberdeen Audi. I've not heard any more about them but they were most likely stolen to order, don't know if they used keys or not.
For the record I don't have & don't trust Keyless at the moment.
There was a spate of Audi thefts in Aberdeen last year, most were with the emergency plastic key left in the glovebox, the rest were with keys stolen from the property. These were thefts by little joyriding scroats and not professional thieves. They were caught after boasting about it in Facebook.
Last month 3 high-end cars (R8, etc) were stolen from Aberdeen Audi. I've not heard any more about them but they were most likely stolen to order, don't know if they used keys or not.
For the record I don't have & don't trust Keyless at the moment.
If you have time: watch this: https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity12/technical-sessions/presentation/verdult
Does the non-keyless entry A3/S3 8V still have remote locking/unlocking on the key fob?
Very interesting video. Just skimmed through it. Will watch it in full when i get home.
Yet more proof (if any was ever needed) of the inherent security flaw. This isnt going to get fixed by everyone pretending there isnt a problem. It needs to be publicised so that consumers can be protected and the problem can be fixed.
It is just that there is some inference that the problem is with Advanced key 'keyless entry', when the reality is that getting into the car (breaching the first layer of security) is the same for keys with remote lock/unlock function as it is for cars with keyless start. Keyless entry is just as susceptible to cryptographic RF attack and clone as keyless start.
Totally agree, but I suppose the real threats are really the techniques the thieves actually use and not necessarily the technically possible ones.
Either way, nothing is 100% safe, just some more than others.
Either way, nothing is 100% safe, just some more than others.
I asked permission on another forum to post this from someone who had his M3 stolen fairly recently:
As I'm sure you can imagine I've looked into this quite a bit - and in reality it does affect pretty much all modern cars. The issue comes down to the availability of manufacturer-aligned kit to do the decryption. Funnily enough, most of the free market kit is compatible with the more premium/German manufacturers, and less focussed on the Vauxhall's of this world.
Technically, the way they've implemented the key encryption (I mean key from a cryptographic perspective) is utterly retarded. The key programming uses a form of public/private key (again, cryptographic key, not car key) encryption - which makes sense. The idea is you never have enough of the key to be able to break the encryption. Here's where it falls down though - the regulations for being able to recut a (physical) key means that *both* parts of the cryptographic route are available at the same connection point.
Anyone who knows anything about cryptography will know how utterly daft that is, it breaks the whole point of it in some respect. There's not even third party key encryption (I.e. use another public/private combo) to gain access to the root.
It's bizarre really - electronic encryption done properly will negate pretty much anyone getting past it, and yet they've been forced (with little fight from the look of it) to implement it in a way that actually makes physical security stronger! You can't do this type of attack on my car now, due to some of my own adjustments to it. You not only need access to the car, but you need a couple of other things to decrypt - in effect I've added 3 factor authentication to it. Possibly over-kill, but hey ho.
As I'm sure you can imagine I've looked into this quite a bit - and in reality it does affect pretty much all modern cars. The issue comes down to the availability of manufacturer-aligned kit to do the decryption. Funnily enough, most of the free market kit is compatible with the more premium/German manufacturers, and less focussed on the Vauxhall's of this world.
Technically, the way they've implemented the key encryption (I mean key from a cryptographic perspective) is utterly retarded. The key programming uses a form of public/private key (again, cryptographic key, not car key) encryption - which makes sense. The idea is you never have enough of the key to be able to break the encryption. Here's where it falls down though - the regulations for being able to recut a (physical) key means that *both* parts of the cryptographic route are available at the same connection point.
Anyone who knows anything about cryptography will know how utterly daft that is, it breaks the whole point of it in some respect. There's not even third party key encryption (I.e. use another public/private combo) to gain access to the root.
It's bizarre really - electronic encryption done properly will negate pretty much anyone getting past it, and yet they've been forced (with little fight from the look of it) to implement it in a way that actually makes physical security stronger! You can't do this type of attack on my car now, due to some of my own adjustments to it. You not only need access to the car, but you need a couple of other things to decrypt - in effect I've added 3 factor authentication to it. Possibly over-kill, but hey ho.
This recent news item suggests that the number of cars being stolen in London, which are keyless, is now 1 in 3.
I have no idea what the ratio of keyless cars on the roads in London is though? In fact you would need the % of 'sought after' cars that are keyless to make any analysis I suppose:
I have no idea what the ratio of keyless cars on the roads in London is though? In fact you would need the % of 'sought after' cars that are keyless to make any analysis I suppose:
Those things damage your leather steering and I have used them in the past to protect my 'key' vehicles from them being so easily stolen by the casual thief. The police don't actually keep stats on how a car is stolen and when your car is taken from your drive because of the car keys being taken from the house it is usually classed as burglary. 1 in 3 is also speculative pub talk. No one is saying that my car is more secure, cars generally have become that way, hence the drop in thefts, or maybe how figures get 'massaged', however a keyless car has advantages in security over that of a conventional key, as I have stated before. It is still the case though that it is easier to steal a car by having the key, unlike having to have a technical ability and the tools to be able to take the car, I know how the gangs do it. So, unfortunately for all you people who are missing having it, keyless thefts are in the minority. As I have stated, only my keyless cars have never been stolen, most the cars I have owned, and my wife's, with keys have been...
Liquidfusion-S3
I fall to peer pressure!
Because they think every thief is technologically sound and won't break into your house to steal the advanced key.
As has already been established, not the keys. But you can do it with the keys as well.
Thats an additonal attack vector.
How are you defining "advantage"?
Thats an additonal attack vector.
How are you defining "advantage"?
Yeah, every car thief comes with a free laptop and the technical knowledge of how to bypass the security, I think not, it is only organised gangs who are doing this. I also wonder what happens when they programmed the car to think there is a key present and the car stops, say because the start/stop kicks in, do they then have to reprogram the car again? I also think that, as these thefts are in the minority, carried out by gangs, because they have individuals who have different roles, they can attract more attention than the casual and more common taking of a car by use of the key.
I had an experience with a neighbour once, which quite clearing demonstrates the hysteria that social networking causes without people bothering to find out the facts. He came to my door to warn me that their were some thieves about who had gained access to his car, a rather nice and expensive Audi Cabrio, when he was sure he'd locked it and he was convinced that they'd used a device to gain entry, nothing though was taken. When I told him why did they then not take the car as the car was worth more he 'remembered' that he'd probably forgotten to lock it and that was a frequent occurrence when just popping into his house because he felt safer living out in the country, another myth. He still has the car by the way but I'm not about to tell you were he lives
If you can't be bothered to read back though the thread and work it out, why should I, however think about what many people do with their cars when they are severely iced up and 'keyless'.
Is it that hard just to state it, albeit how obscure it actually is?
I suppose it would have looked a bit rubbish in a list:
- er, well, er on a cold day, er if i leave the engine running er....
- and well er... Im out of points now.
Watch the usenix video. Its quite interesting.
I suppose it would have looked a bit rubbish in a list:
- er, well, er on a cold day, er if i leave the engine running er....
- and well er... Im out of points now.
Watch the usenix video. Its quite interesting.
Well I get bored easily, unlike stealing cars with keyless being easy which,of course, it isn't because the easiest way of stealing a car is by stealing the key, which happens most of the time. Which, again, is the easiest thing to do...
0B1001001
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Two simple questions, please answer them to give any credence to your stance:
1. How is stealing a normal or a keyless key any different?
2. Keyless offers an additional attack vector over a normal key, how does that equate to better security?
Mmmm what a flurry of posts.
I don't think its a case of all potential car thieves wandering around with laptops etc. Those with the kit must be very much in the minority.
There does seem to be a range of people who will steal cars, or any vehicles come to that.
There are the ones who find themselves in a position to take a car, the opportunist thief, perhaps the drivers leave their vehicles unattended and with keys in or available, such as the clip of the Q3, many people still leave their keys in when filling up with fuel. Then there are the joy riders who take easy to steal cars like Corsa's etc. living in the country I often see them burnt out down the local lanes (though gladly not as many as I used to). Then there are those that are doing it for a business. Perhaps for cloning or sale, it's perhaps this latter group who are, like some of the others 'tooled up'. But they use either modern technlology items to enable them to steal vehicles or break into homes to steal the keys. They are perhaps looking for high end valuable vehicles that will bring them a fat profit. So this type of theft will always be a very small percentage of overall thefts, but the percentage stolen by technological means, if we are to believe the experts is increasing. So the more high end and desirable your vehicle is then perhaps the more likely it is to be stolen by this type of theft. The RS4, X5 and Range Rover etc. brigade. The claim has been made that in some circumstances cars can be stolen and exported with an hour.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ge-vehicles-wealthy-homes-exporting-hour.html
But I'm guessing that with keyless entry and the code they can open the door without any damage and drive the vehicle away, where as with a key only vehicle they will either have to have the keys or force entry then use the OBD to programme a key, I'm sure given the choice they would prefer not to have to reduce the value of the vehicle?
But lets get things in proportion, total car thefts over the years have dramatically reduced so the chances of you being targeted are still relatively low. How you may want to manage that risk, if you want to manage it all is up to you.
I don't think its a case of all potential car thieves wandering around with laptops etc. Those with the kit must be very much in the minority.
There does seem to be a range of people who will steal cars, or any vehicles come to that.
There are the ones who find themselves in a position to take a car, the opportunist thief, perhaps the drivers leave their vehicles unattended and with keys in or available, such as the clip of the Q3, many people still leave their keys in when filling up with fuel. Then there are the joy riders who take easy to steal cars like Corsa's etc. living in the country I often see them burnt out down the local lanes (though gladly not as many as I used to). Then there are those that are doing it for a business. Perhaps for cloning or sale, it's perhaps this latter group who are, like some of the others 'tooled up'. But they use either modern technlology items to enable them to steal vehicles or break into homes to steal the keys. They are perhaps looking for high end valuable vehicles that will bring them a fat profit. So this type of theft will always be a very small percentage of overall thefts, but the percentage stolen by technological means, if we are to believe the experts is increasing. So the more high end and desirable your vehicle is then perhaps the more likely it is to be stolen by this type of theft. The RS4, X5 and Range Rover etc. brigade. The claim has been made that in some circumstances cars can be stolen and exported with an hour.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ge-vehicles-wealthy-homes-exporting-hour.html
But I'm guessing that with keyless entry and the code they can open the door without any damage and drive the vehicle away, where as with a key only vehicle they will either have to have the keys or force entry then use the OBD to programme a key, I'm sure given the choice they would prefer not to have to reduce the value of the vehicle?
But lets get things in proportion, total car thefts over the years have dramatically reduced so the chances of you being targeted are still relatively low. How you may want to manage that risk, if you want to manage it all is up to you.
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You are so right, up until 2011 the most commonly stolen vehicle was the ford transit, no keyless in those...
1: the risk is exactly the same, so having keyless doesn't make it easier.
2: is 'attack vector' some kind of American speak, or in gaming, because I do not understand your termology. However, once again, if you bothered to read up on what keyless systems do you will find the answer.
The problem with this thread is a lack of understanding about how criminals act in the real world and those 'have not's' are trying to unnecessarily induce panic into us by overstating the case, it sells newspapers. Perhaps due to some envy of some kind I don't know...
This is the thread that keeps on giving.
Attack vector is an industry standard term used in computer security. But perhaps if you'd bothered to read up on it or google it you'd know that.
There has been no answer provided to point 2. Simply telling someone to read up, when all the evidence in the thread says otherwise isnt really a credible stance.
Attack vector is an industry standard term used in computer security. But perhaps if you'd bothered to read up on it or google it you'd know that.
There has been no answer provided to point 2. Simply telling someone to read up, when all the evidence in the thread says otherwise isnt really a credible stance.
Why should I bother to look up something that's nothing to do with cars? In forums I try to stay away from jargonised speak, something most forums advise you to do. I also see no credible evidence, or stance, in this thread that gives any credence to having keyless makes your car easier to steal. You want to go on arguing this all day when you've not produced a shred of evidence or just be a scaremonger amongst hacks who just want to make a story out of nothing?
