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A great debate. Let the nation decide.

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by rich1068, Feb 19, 2008.

?

New tyres? Front or rear?

Poll closed Feb 24, 2008.
  1. Front

    58.5%
  2. Rear

    41.5%
  1. sleep envy
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    sleep envy Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    :lmfao:
    #41
  2. danotto
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    danotto VAG HUNTER

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    get both and be done with.:tocktock:
    #42
  3. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    Nope we're not talking front wheel drive here. The poll is for a guy with quattro and Pedro's post doesn't mention FWD/RWD.

    And again you comment above hasn't answered my question, all you have done is explain what you do with your car. My BM for example always wears it rears quicker than the fronts. I dont get through 2 rears at exactely the same time as 1 set of fronts. For example my rears have a faitr bit of life left in them, I'd say they are about half worn. The fronts are almost shot. so according to your post I need to change both fronts as rears or I'll end up in hedge?

    J.
    #43
  4. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    What absolute ******** your now talking.

    If that was the case the law would be changed. 20/30 years ago I dare say that might have been the case, the same as the problem with radial and cross ply tyres.

    Manufacturers couldn't take that risk. Tyres places wouldn't fit new tyres to the front of cars.

    No one is doubting the theory, but the reallity is definately different.

    J.
    #44
  5. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    Perhaps we need a new poll. Who here has died because they fitted new tyres on the front of a car?

    I for one haven't. Any one else?

    J.
    #45
  6. phantom
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    phantom On Boost

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    For most people day to day driving with the odd blasst , it will be better to put new tyres on the front, to give them more grip when cornering , it won't result in any problems!

    If your a keen track day driver or you take your car to hell on your private B-roads then putting new tyres on the rear is a good idea

    p
    #46
  7. Nath-340R
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    Nath-340R New Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    The most tread should always be on the rear, Thats why when I need new front tyres, i move my back one to the front and put the new ones on the rear, Then the next time I probs have to replace all 4.

    A FWD car with worn rear tyres and new fronts is really not a good combo!
    #47
  8. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    I'm with you, MB.

    Frankly, going by some of the 'SUN' type sensationalism being spouted here, I'm amazed I've managed to avoid a horrendous rear-end induced crash into a bus queue of nuns, helping disabled lesbians to a dolphin sanctuary.
    I'll go put the best tyres on the back immediately.

    Like hell I will.:p
    #48
  9. lil_coz
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    lil_coz Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    Do the 2 new tyres have to go on the front or back? They have to go on the back. Only because the wheel shufflers tell us to! In reality it makes sod all difference!

    Someone mentions learning car control whilst your learning to drive. The reason why they dont do this is because they teach you to drive 100% winthin the driving conditions so you would never get the ass out on a car so you wouldnt need to know what to do. I got told when I was doing my lessons that the new set should go on the rear because your used to having 'less grip' on the front and you should keep this characteristic in the car's balance.

    I dont think it makes a difference weather they go on the front or rear. Half worn on the rear and new on the front wont make you go through the Pearly gates backwards! Only in extreme conditions: bald on rear, new on front, hammering along a greasy/wet B road. Then your just asking for trouble! If you put the new tyres on the front, you'll notice a slight change of grip on the front. Put them on the rear and you may notice more grip at the rear. Chances are, 90% or drivers couldnt even tell if they've had new rears!
    #49
  10. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    In my experience, it's only your large, national tyre companies that bother telling you this.
    I use any one of three companies for tyres.
    If it's for the wife's car, usually Costco.
    If it's for my company car, it's one of two local independents.
    Costco are the only ones that insist on rear replacement first.
    Evidently, their corporate lawyers are just keen to avoid lawsuits.:motz:
    #50
  11. lil_coz
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    lil_coz Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    American company, its their suing culture thats brought it on...
    #51
  12. newbiecrg
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    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    Well first of all no one, at least me, is saying it is a life death situation. No one will automatically die if puts new tires in the front instead rear. Second if you read my posts with attention I am saying the effects are more noticiable when there is a huge difference in grip (almost illegal tires in one end and brand new on the other... skip the running in of the tires where they are slippery as hell)

    Another thing is that I am still to have sound facts from you explaining why it is safer to have them in the front or if it makes no difference. My point is only it is safer to have them in the rear, not that it is life threathening or a rule!! So please give me your facts concerning best tires in the front.

    But I will answer your queries the best I can and please could anyone correct me if I am wrong. I really like this forum and this conversation is a good example of healthy debate. :)

    In a rear wheel car with different tire sizes it is even more crucial to have good tires in the rear. As you well know (you have a powerfull BMW afterall) you can "light" your tires just with the power and mix that with a damp road and mid corner if you press your foot down you know what will happen (off course electronics aids like ESP come in rescue and you might think it is OK).

    So with a worn tire in the rear the effect is more prone to happen (oversteer). Off course you will have to put new tires in the front if you need them... but in the period when you have very good grip in the front and not so good in the back your car is more prone to onversteer!! So you should be more carefull. That does not mean that you have to drive very slowly, the electronic aids will take care of you but try without them and them you will realize the effects of lack of grip in rear in a more pronounced way.

    The effect of new tires in the front on a rear wheel drive in terms of the front bitting are less important than the lack o rear grip as the front is "pushed" it does not "pull". So oversteer is more a cause of worn tires in the rear than fresh ones in the front in RWD.

    Modern cars are setup to understeer by the same reason I stated before... in most situation, panic equals braking and that corrects understeer... If the cars were setup properly at the first signal of oversteer most drivers would brake doing a complete 360 or worse... very dangerous.

    But you have a rear wheel car just try your own medicine if you think it is OK. When your rear tires are almost gone fit new front tires, turn off the ESP (or similar) and let me know if it is safer? better? easier? and then we talk...

    My final remark is that this is not a life threatning situation but the effects are noticed. I do not mean anyone will crash (depends on driver talent as well) but like smoking puts you at more risk of developing lung cancer (does not mean you will..) worn rear tires puts you at more risk of loosing the back end (does not mean you will..)

    Pedro

    P.S.: Still waiting for your "facts"... and don't answer with a question... lololol
    #52
  13. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    FWIW, I'm on my third set of fronts tyres.
    They've been Continental, Goodyear F1's and, currently, Dunlop Sportmaxxes.
    For 90% of that time, it has been the original Continentals on the back.
    I recently moved part worn Dunlops from the front to the back and put nice new Sportmaxxes on the front.
    I've never noticed any grip problems at the back.
    I've even tried to induce oversteer, because I like it.
    The thing won't budge!
    This scenario has been repeated over loads of FWD cars, over 23 years of driving.
    Never, ever, noticed or regretted leaving part-worns on the back and putting shiny new ones on the front.
    TBH, I don't care with supposed tyre experts or 'science' tells me should happen.
    Practice tells me, for a FWD car, it pretty much doesn't matter what's on the back, they'll grip just fine.
    #53
  14. bacardi
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    bacardi Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    FWIW - I've experienced dodgy oversteer moments on FWD cars (Most recent being a Type R which was fairly controlable) when part worns have been on the rear and new ones on the front


    The only way I've managed to get the A3 to oversteer was with the help of the handbrake
    #54
  15. rich1068
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    rich1068 Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    I've started something haven't I?
    #55
  16. newbiecrg
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    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    I am not a tyre expert but what I said has science supporting it... There is no need to have "faith" to believe it is true.

    Either you are a very good driver or you don't feel the car at all.... If you cannot feel any difference with worn or new tires I am concerned for you...

    My friend in a brand new TT cannot say the same... he learned the lesson the hard way... spent some thousand pounds on the workshop.

    But if experience tells you otherwise... please don't listen to my silly remarks... for me there is a difference and quite noticiable.

    Put a bit of water in the equation and then wonder wheter the tree was there the other day...

    I even give you the "lab conditions": Cold morning, not frosty, first rains (road not washed out by the rain, a tiny bit dirty), light rain, country road bend, with a tiny bit of negative banking (as there are in england). Now push the car to the limits on that conditions and turn off the ESP. Make two passes one with new or good tires all around, and the second one with new tires in front and worn tires in the rear... let me know which pass was closer to the trees...

    Maybe the ESP does its job and tires worn or new are the same.. but turn it off and see....

    But each one to its own... Like SleepEnvy I am concerned with the results of the poll.... for my own safety of course...

    Pedro
    #56
  17. newbiecrg
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    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    I guess so... ahahah But that is what the forum is about!! :)

    Pedro
    #57
  18. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    Pedro, I'd suggest your findings are partly psychological.
    You believe part worns are worse because you know they're there.
    I'd be interested in a blind test.
    I'd venture few drivers could tell the difference.
    I can tell if the psi has slipped (sic) on my tyres, but I'm damned if I notice the difference between new and part worns, gripwise.
    Mind you, the A3 isn't exactly a good test bed, given that it has next to no feedback.
    By all means though, put your shiny new tyres on the back, where the increased tread depth doesn't do any good.
    Your money, your choice.
    #58
  19. newbiecrg
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    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    I have quattro! In case my front tires loose a bit the grip power is transfered to the back so my money will be OK!

    On those condition I told you.... do you really believe it is the same? Good for you!

    But bowfer I don't change tires front to rear anyway I don't like to "circle tries around"... I replaced them as I need, I am fine with any tire anywhere... But when it happens the best tires are in the front I do feel a difference. Maybe I am paranoid...

    And there is nothing psychological about crashing.... it just happens!

    Pedro
    #59
  20. sleep envy
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    sleep envy Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    really?

    why do you think manufactures dial in more understeer to cars?

    ever heard of the terms 'push' and 'loose'?

    with respect to the law, it's currently permitted to have two different makes of tyres on the same axle which I think is stupid beyond belief, but there you go

    Newbiecrg has pretty much answered the question but your are entitled to your own opinion and choice

    I'm quite happy to go with my decision having spoken to a number of people who are chassis designers and technicians across the industry
    #60
  21. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    Pedro "if you read my post with attention" you would have realise that what I acutally wrote was:Nah not convinced on the safety reasons mentioned above.

    I'm still not, like I said if it was the 80's now then I'd say your point was valid but Cars and tyres technology has moved on.

    But if you want to always replace your rears then good for you, me personally I wont be, I'll replace what needs replacing. If I always had better tyres on the rear of my BM I would forever be visiting the tyre depot.

    And for the record I read on the internet that using a mobile phone will give me brain cancer. Haven't stopped doing that either.

    J.
    #61
  22. dipstic
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    dipstic Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    I always cycle my tires and rather replace all four together if done correctly never much difference in tyre tread depth so best of both worlds and dont forget that half worn tyres are half as good and the legal limit is just that the legal limit,front or rear.
    #62
  23. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    So if a car understeers, does fitting new tyres on the front will eliminate it?
    #63
  24. rich1068
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    rich1068 Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    So far this is summing up my thoughts on the matter. And in all my years of driving I've been in more situations that have involved a near or actual shunt because of lack of grip at the front than I have thought 'back end got a bit loose then'.
    #64
  25. sleep envy
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    sleep envy Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    you can't eliminate understeer by solely changing tyres - you can only decrease or increase it

    chassis dymanics are influenced by far more things than just the tyres
    #65
  26. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    So a car with new tyres on the front and worn tyres on the back will understeer still?
    #66
  27. bacardi
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    bacardi Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    And you put yours on the front where it can make your car over steer off the road. Your money your choice.
    #67
  28. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    How many people have personally oversteered off the road due to worn tyres on the back?

    I've experienced lift off over steer many times both during track days and driving on the road. Not once have I crashed and killed myself, or even gone off the road through a hedge.

    So are you saying I am a god of driving? Or a driving god...
    #68
  29. sleep envy
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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    in certain circumstances yes BUT in other situations it is more likely to lose rear end grip than if the tyres were fitted the other way round

    I never said that it will do it 100% of the time, I said it will increase the risk of it happening and most probably the exact time you don't want it to happen like avoiding debris or a car rounding a wet, off camber bend
    #69
  30. sleep envy
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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    you are deliberately missinterpreting the posts

    it's not solely down to the tyres but a culmination of things - road conditions, topography, condition of the chassis & tyres, road and ambient temp, steering input, inertia, pitch and yaw levels, etc
    #70
  31. newbiecrg
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    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    Well each one is entitled for they own opinions and I am not trying to convince anyone.

    I think some people are trying to go to extremes and the only thing I am saying is that worn tires in the rear + new tires in the front make any car more prone to oversteer (wich is a more difficult behaviour to control for most people).

    Well it does not mean they will oversteer but, given the right conditions they might. Simple as that. Not saying it is life threatning or anything and I am no example as I change whatever needs changing but I know that for the normal driver (80%) of us it is safer if they have the best tires in the rear.

    what is amusing me is that everyone that says front or doesn't matter either do not give proven facts or simple physics, instead when asked why just answer because.... or others claim that never mind what science proves I know what I experience... Fair enough on both.

    Sleep envy, sometimes your positions are a bit extreme as well lololol but in this case you are spot on... and, like me, you understand that tires are one more thing in the equation and not THE thing... I say more or less prone you say decrease or increase which is the same thing...

    All this can be measured, and has been by all tire manufacturers, on a race track with a lateral g sensor (so the load put on each set of tires is the same)

    But has in health increasing the risk factors does not mean we will have the disease... I think most comments didn't had the disease...lolol but they still eat fish and chips everyday...lolololol Some getaway in a lifetime, others don't...

    Anyway as far I am concerned this topic had all the opinions covered so no point carrying on.

    Pedro
    #71
  32. bacardi
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    bacardi Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]

    I've killed myself twice because of exactly this happening.

    :)
    #72
  33. lil_coz
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    lil_coz Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    I've only lost the back end once and that was due to me driving like a pillock. Guessing most (if not all) cases of this will be because of the same reasons.
    #73
  34. sleep envy
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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    agreed except for the extreme bit - if you're going to do/say something you might as well be controvertial ;)
    #74
  35. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    Not at all. You and Pedro are saying that a car with worn rears and new fronts is dangerous.
    #75
  36. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    Perhaps Pedro and Sleep envy sould like to get a room to continue thier loving?
    #76
  37. sleep envy
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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    I've edited your post to actually say what Pedro and I are trying putting across

    HTH
    #77
  38. sleep envy
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    sleep envy Member

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    [Feb 20, 2008]

    :lmfao:

    jealous?
    #78
  39. newbiecrg
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    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    Come on! :lmfao: Your sarcasm is spoiling your natural charm!!! lolololl

    What you call this post?? I never said it was dangerous or life threatning!!!

    What I say and you know it, just playing dumb..., is that a car is more prone to oversteer. And oversteer itself is a more difficult behaviour to deal with, hence more risky for the normal driver...

    Smile mate...

    Pedro
    #79
  40. newbiecrg
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    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    [Feb 20, 2008]
    Now that was funny.... I think my missus wouldn't be impressed! lololol

    Pedro
    #80

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