08 B7 A4 2.0 TDCI . Cranking but not starting. ***SOLVED***

[sidibear]

Bit long winded but bear with me.
The problem I have is that the car cranks over but won't fire up. I have a red battery light and orange ABS light showing on the dash while cranking it.
When I first put the key in all the dash lights come on and go off as normal, I wait until the glow plug light goes off and turn the key, and all it does it spin over, quickly not slowly. I am not sure if the fuel pump is coming on as I don't hear it, but not sure if I used to hear it before. I have tried holding the open button on the fob and turning the ignition on and off again to relearn the fob but it made no difference.

My car isn't used much so just sits there. I do try and keep on top of regularly charging the battery but did let it slip due to working away. Late one night I had a beeping noise so put the car on charge. It wasn't that simple though. The car wouldn't open off the fob and the indicators were trying to flash. I opened the car with the key, opened the bonnet and put the leads on, once the charger was powered up the alarm went off. I kept on trying to turn it off and eventually it stopped. After several attempts I managed to get the battery on charge without the alarm going off.
Now, I realise at this point that the battery is f**ked but its still holding charge and showing 12.6v. I don't know how much it drops when cranking.
I know its going to need a new battery, but will putting a new battery on it make it start despite the existing one having enough charge?

Any ideas?

 

[Charlie Farley]

Can you see the fuel inlet pipes on the injectors from the drivers door position?

 

[Charlie Farley]

I'm not that up on B7 diesels but from working on my other diesel kit I would first ascertain that fuel is actually getting to the injectors as you say its cranking but not firing up.

If you can see the fuel connection to injectors from outside the driver's door, worth loosening the nut on the fuel line connection to one of the injectors then cranking it over, check if any fuel is pumped out, if it does that will discount the pump to start with unless you were having issues prior with the pump or fuel delivery.

 

[Charlie Farley]

have you run any diags yet ?

 

[sidibear]

There were no issues at all prior to the battery going totally flat. No diags run as I don't have anything to run them with, and can't start it to take it anywhere. I am hoping its a simple reset of something.

 

[northpole]

have you tried to jump start the car while trying to start it? it's one of the main things with diesel engines... if the battery is bad, it'll never get to right amount of CCA to compress the fuel to ignite it... so find someone to help you out with their car and decent jumper cables... connect it up and leave it to run for 20 minutes before attempting to start your car ( this way the other car actually charges your battery a bit and it can make all the difference) but if that doesn't work...a tow-start should do the trick... wait until the speedo shows 30mph, put the car in 3rd gear and let the clutch come up slowly at this speed it should startup straight away. signal the towing car pull over disconnect the towing gear and drive around for at least 40 miles... this should help the battery get a good old charge from the alternator, do it during the day and try to keep any electrical equipment turned off during that drive...

ps a tow-start will only work if there aren't any other problems...

 

[sidibear]

Ah ha, I wasn't thinking of the crank amps, just voltage. I will try a jump at the weekend when I get chance.

 

[NM07]

Depends which engine you have in your car. I noticed in the title of your post you mention TDCI, which indicates common rail, but none of the B7 2.0 engines were common rail, all were PD's which is a far more simple mechanical system. Are you sure you don't have a B8? 2008 was the transition year between the last B7's and the start of the B8's.

If you can confirm whether it's a PD, or common rail, that will help us offer you advice on how to proceed as the diagnostic approaches will differ significantly.

 

[sidibear]

@ NM07, much appreciated. Sorry for the delayed response, I am currently working away a lot.
My bad, its a TDI, its one of the last B7's registered March 2008.
I had some time yesterday so attached the jump leads to the other car and let it run for a bit. When I cranked over the Audi it spun over ok, I left it for about 5 minutes longer and it spun over really fast, so it was making a difference, it didn't however, start. It doesn't even sound like its trying to be honest, just spins over. The battery light on the dash is still illuminated red when it spins over if that makes a difference. I know the battery is scrap but I am reluctant to put a new battery on it for it just to site there for several months. I thought by jumping it it would start, but would a new battery cure it? I am wondering if its an immobiliser issue? As when the battery went completely flat (measured 6 volts !) and it started beeping it was difficult to stop it, indicators flashing etc.

 

[northpole]

If it was an immobiliser issue you'd have a light with the key crossed out on on the dash... plus it wouldn't even turn over it would just click everyrime you turned the key.


I said it before... try a tow start...

 

[Charlie Farley]

You need to run diags on it ,and should have from the start really , vcds or similar otherwise you are just taking pot luck stabs in the dark, i would assume there is a vcds user near you or within range that will checkout the car and systems.

 

[northpole]

You need to run diags on it ,and should have from the start really.

that is why i pointed out: If you have no faults but it refuses to start, a tow start will do the trick.

 

[Charlie Farley]

you dont need a running engine to get an overview of faults with vcds just because the dash isn't lit up light a xmas tree doesn't mean its fault free.
If it turns over but won't start then there will be a limited amount of sources of failure, it's basic problem solving.
even if the car had really low compression for a diesel you'd get some signs of combustion with a jump start.
check the fuel supply and all relays / fuses that maybe associated with fuel pump etc.


there is a very easy way to get it started or diagnosed if one can't, just sign up with the RAC and call them out.

 

[northpole]

you dont need a running engine to get an overview of faults with vcds just because the dash isn't lit up light a xmas tree doesn't mean its fault free.
If it turns over but won't start then there will be a limited amount of sources of failure, it's basic problem solving.
even if the car had really low compression for a diesel you'd get some signs of combustion with a jump start.
check the fuel supply and all relays / fuses that maybe associated with fuel pump etc.


there is a very easy way to get it started or diagnosed if one can't, just sign up with the RAC and call them out.

Let me correct you on this, unlike petrol engines, diesels that don't startup don't always log fault codes, it should but it doesn't always do it... air in the fuel lines is enough to not log a fault. because there basically isn't anything wrong, other than an air bubble being in the way... now the PD's are self bleeding that is why a towstart can get an otherwise non starter to run...

Also VCDS will not log air in the fuel lines, it'll show up only in the actual injection quantity measuring blocks and easy to spot when compared to requested injection quantity measuring block

that is why i said: IF there aren't any faults

I ran VAG diesels for quite some time and have seen this non start problem without any logged faultcodes happen more often than you'd imagine, and every single time a towstart sorted it out. Basically the PD pump needs to bleed out the air from the fuel lines and injectors, a towstart and trying to bump the car at 30mph gives the car enough power (yes even with a weak battery as the alternator will provide the needed power) and rpm's to help overcome the air problem. Plus there is also the Relay 109 problem that can trigger a non start simply because it refuses to run the intank lift pump (usually the source of the air being in the fuel lines in the first place) and you probably guessed it that also doesn't show up anywhere as a faultcode...
but easy to spot... turn the key and listen for the pump to engage... if you don't hear it than check the fuel pump relay... 109. and no it doesn't blow a fuse, the relay just won't work.

 

[Charlie Farley]

Fair enough, I don't really tinker with diesel lumps in cars to be honest, but very conversant with tractor and plant diesel units which I maintain and rebuild a fair bit.
I'll bow to your input then.

 

[northpole]

no need to bow just experience with VAG PD and ve- diesel engines... they can be a pita especially if they stood for a while, when you've just changed the timingbelt, have a non working intank fuelpump or you've just changed the fuel filter... all these things can introduce air in the fuel system and can cause a non start situation... the VE being the worst for these things since the fuel system doesn't self bleed... the PD can overcome some of it if the battery is good and the airlock isn't to big ( PD is self bleeding)

 

[sidibear]

Much appreciated guys. I did actually forget to add that its an auto, my bad, old age brain fart moment. I did initially contact a local guy on the VCDS map at the start, just gone for another search as I hadn't heard back and noticed he hasn't been online since 2017 ! Just found another one I had contacted previously so will try him. An Audi guy at work mentioned about a 614 relay problem as he had a none start problem with his years ago, but did say the glow plug light wouldn't come on if it was, but mine does. I will have a look into replacing the 109 relay, I can't hear anything when I turn the key on so might be a positive solution, fingers crossed.
I don't have the immobiliser warning on the dash, I just thought it might be related as the alarm went off when the battery went really flat and the car wouldn't respond to the key fob, but did eventually.
It just has to be something stupidly simple, it ran and started perfectly until the battery went flat.

 

[sidibear]

Yes, I know its been a while since the last update ! lol
Just fitted a new battery, Yuassa S5000, cranks over like a good un, doesn't fire up though. While cranking I have a red battery light and orange ABS lights on the dash.
I have contacted local VCDS people on the map on here but as of yet, no response.

 

[northpole]

red battery light means the battery is not giving enough power to start the car... use a set of jumper cables or a starter pack. ABS light on mweh could be some rust on a sensor... but use VCDS to determine which one it is and give that side a good clean out with a jet washer... 9 out of 10 times that is enough. But 1 out of 10 times the sensor will need replacing.
Also check the level of brake fluid as i recal this popped up on mine when the brake fluid was filthy... I replaced it and after bleeding that light for the ABS was off.

 

[sidibear]

Would this happen with a brand new battery though? I will put it on charge and try again.

 

[northpole]

You can recharge it but if you are trying to start it and it doesn't start within 10 minutes the CCA has dramatically gone down that's why i said use jumper cables. Or a highpower diesel jumperpack. Diesel CCA (cold cranking amperage) is essential to get the engine to enough rpm's to compress the fuel enough to ignite it. The only extra tip i can give you is to disconect the engine temperature sensor as this will trigger the use of the glowplugs regardless of the temperature and this helps the fuel to ignite quicker due to the higher temperature inside the combustion chambers.

That all being said, 2 more things for you to check once you got the car running:
1- check the voltage when it's idling it should be above 13.1 volt if it's lower than that the alternator needs to be replaced
2- the startermotor might be the problem, but that would be effident once you have it up and running and it takes way to long to start. (after you've sorted it out and got it running ofcourse and you try to start it again and it takes longer than normal.... well than the starter probably needs replacing because it has to much ware)

Also you didn't specify if the car actually is circulating the fuel... so if you haven't checked if the intank fuel pump is priming i suggest you do this first... pull up the rear bench and put contact on position 1 you should here a buzzing noise if it's silent... well you'll need to replace that feulpump relay.

 

[sidibear]

I just firstly want to thank you for all your assistance and patience with this, it really is much appreciated.
I can't hear the fuel pump priming, I have checked the fuel pump fuse and it was fine, I will have to check the relay under the dash next, I might get chance next weekend if I can find time. ( kinda why its dragging on so long !)
I am still trying to find someone with VCDS to give it a scan, as currently I am just in the dark.

 

[sidibear]

Is this the correct relay?
HELLA-4RA-933-332-101

 

[northpole]

Is this the correct relay?
HELLA-4RA-933-332-101

Not sure mate the best thing you can do is go onto the parts database and make sure you get the right one: use the topic called parts database, than look at the last post, from that link you'll use ETKA to find it. As you can drill down to your vin number to only show parts for your car.

 

[northpole]

here is the link to said topic

 

[sidibear]

Huge thanks once again.
I just metered the fuel pump fuse with the ignition turned on and it didn't read anything.

 

[northpole]

And did you check if the fuse was burned? If it's not it deffo needs a new relay. You got access to ETKA so you can make sure you get the right part

 

[sidibear]

The fuse was clean and shiny like new.
A new relay it is then, I am hoping its under the dash, but its more likely to be under the ecu with my luck.
I did try the ETKA link on the link you posted, tried several times to put my VIN number in and it kept saying unrecognised. I will try again later, or failing that, wait until I have the other one in my hand with the part number on it.

 

[northpole]

The fuse was clean and shiny like new.
A new relay it is then, I am hoping its under the dash, but its more likely to be under the ecu with my luck.
I did try the ETKA link on the link you posted, tried several times to put my VIN number in and it kept saying unrecognised. I will try again later, or failing that, wait until I have the other one in my hand with the part number on it.

If the VIN doesn't work use the year etc to drill down as close as you can to your car.

 

[sidibear]

So, bit of an update. Managed to remove the ECU cover earlier today. Removed the 314 relay and it does indeed look a little burnt on one of the terminals. New one on order, watch this space.

Oh, is it worth replacing the other two relays under there while I am at it?

 

[Charlie Farley]

yes, given their low cost just replace them all, saves going back in later to do another one.

 

[sidibear]

Put the new relay in and nothing. Could the fuel pump relay be under the dash panel above the pedals instead of below the ECU?

 

[Charlie Farley]

Without doing a good diagnostic check you could be chasing your tail forever, you really need a starting point which a good diag will help indicate whats going on with the onboard systems, there is clearly an issue somewhere and youve address some of the quick easy checks, but without a resolution.

Time to get it vcds or similar diag checked , or joint the RAC and then call them out to a home start problem.

 

[sidibear]

I have been trying to find someone on here to scan it, would rather pay a member of the forum to scan it. I am with Green Flag so may just give them a call.

 

[Charlie Farley]

I'd call them out, let them scan it and see what occurs, what do you have to loose.

 

[sidibear]

Further research has kinda pointed out I may have replaced the wrong relay ! lol I changed the 614 relay under the ECU, this may be for the glow plugs as I have just found out.
So, under the ECU from the wiper end I have an empty hole, a 457 tall relay, a new 614 and next to that are two 404 relays next to each other.
Under the dash knee panel I have 3no 373 and 1no 370.
From all the diagrams I have been looking at, the fuel pump relay should be where the empty hole is under the ECU, or in position 1 nearest the steering column under the dash !

I think I have a car that was wired up by several people from different companies.

I am not going to give up.

 

[B7Tourer]

I think as Rob and Northpole are saying you need proper diagnosis before proceeding too far down a rabbit hole - why would it have fired before with the relays as they are? Yes one mighthave burnt out but unless someone has tampered since the 'missing' relay space is probably as it's always been. This video shows the VCDS output test and prime:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7umlf6ILwmU

If you have OBDEleven you can do the same yourself (well worth getting)

You say the engine turned over 'very fast', even with the jumped old duff battery - are you sure the engine is turning or just the starter? I can't see you mentioning that. Is the solenoid on the starter stuck?

 

[sidibear]

The battery went very flat and the alarm went off, indicators were trying their best to flash, very dim and slow. Ever since then its refused to start, its not the sound of the starter spinning over, its the actual engine cranking over but refusing to fire up.
The engine cranked over like it should with a full new fully charged battery proving there was enough charge to start the car and run pumps and things. I have since fitted a new battery.
Something has gone wrong somewhere and something has failed, if I could get someone here to do a scan I would, I have been trying. I have been doing research online and by trying to find out what relays are where and what they do. There is very conflicting and confusing information as a lot of relays are the same by numbered differently. So when I get for instance a 614 relay, I find information on two different locations and several different uses for it.
So looking at the information I found for the 614 relay it was under the ECU, but it was under the dash knee panel. It is for the fuel pump, but its for the glow plugs, but hey, its for the air con, but then its the alarm relay. I don't have one under the dash knee panel but apparently for a B7 that's where is it, its under the ECU, but its for the fuel pump, but its not. Its got to be a relay and I just need to find out which one it is and where its located.
Nothing has been tampered with, the empty space for the relay is just that, an empty space. But going by some online info position 1 is where the fuel pump relay is.
I can't find an accurate list of the location of the relays and what they do. I want a graphic of relays saying what they are numbered and what they do.

 

[Charlie Farley]

 

[sidibear]

Hi Charley and thank you. Photo attached showing what I have under the ECU, empty, 457, replacement for the 614 and 2 404's next to each other. I can't find anything online that looks the same and tells me what they are for.
My engine code is BRE.