just replaced my brakes but...

dultanur

dultanur

all promises, no action :)
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the car brakes like '68 VW bug!!!

yesterday i had all 4 discs pads and the brake fluid changed. i have since done about 35km. mostly on the highway hence not much braking but the brakes are terrible!
i expected them to be bad for the first few miles but is this normal?
the pedal is softer and needs a lot of displacement for the brakes to work and initial bite is very low.

so comments please?
 
maybe bleed the brakes again. might help....or not. i dont know.
 
I changed mine to brembo discs and done the pads at same time and I think the bedding in period I was told was up to 150 miles.
 
I got mine done at the weekend, same thing, bit spongy and not the immediate bite as expected.

Have you got OEM pads fitted?
 
Does not sound right, you should get a firmer pedal merely by having new pads, with less wear float on them.
i have to say i am not a supported of the fluid chaging on the VAG mk4 golf platform. I have seen too many instances of poor pedals a s reuslt, problem being priming the ABS pump, its a nightmare.
Where did you get it done and was it with genuine VAG bits? Reason I ask is that many dealers shy away from fluid changes, as its such a problem, I know of many that charge for it and dont do it as it casues more trouble than its worth! Take it back and complain. If they did a proper job and cleaned all your calipers up, put new pads in and changed the fluid rights, pedal should be very firm indeed. is sounds like they have air in the system, used duff pads, or even jsut forgot to celan up the calipers properly? If it was a case of getting grease and oil on the discs, it should have burned off by now.

My own personal technique for pad break in is go out immmediately and stand on the brakes fomr illeagal speeds a few times until the pads well and truly fade, you get smoke off them and all sorts! Then, drive the car, dont let it stand, drive it on steady raods, bypass / motorway in light traffic where you can be pretty sure you dont need th brakes too much, drive the car for about 30-40 minutes, to let the pads and discs fully cool. Then go home park it up, (check discs are cool to touch) and leave it overnight. Next moring, you will be amazed at the shrpness of the brakes! But be warned, only park up of evne stop for anythign over a few seconds once its all cool, otherwise the heat stays in the pads against the discs in a hot spot and can warp you discs. Thsi technique is best for new discs and pads, but does work for new pads also.
 
Nah its fine, I also do the above procedure for new disc/pads. Had smoke POURING off mine, small children were frightened.
 
TheSpaceCowboy said:
Is slamming on the pedal on new discs a good idea? Can't it warp the discs?
Click to expand...

The discs only warp if you get them hot before they are work hardened by heat. If they get super hot, then are aloowed to cool slowly and without hotspots, then they wont warp. Hence the drving for 40 mins or so withut using them , it allows them to cool as they rotate and you dont get a pocket of heat agaisnt the pad. Hence no warping!

The light use idea is woring IMO and it allows the pads to glaze up and also its amazing how hot the brakes can become even with "light use", eg in town, stop start etc.
Better to nuke em, then drive for a good long period and let them cool up.

I used to use a temp probe on a digi thermometer with my old track day car, to make sure they were nice and cool before parkign up, I even used to come down after an hour of parking it and roll it forward a few feet!
 
thanks guys for the replies.
i was with the guy the whole time so i saw everything he did.
1.they are brand new omni competition (roesch) disks and ATE pads (OEM, not motorsports kind).
2.during the hyd. change, the guy had me pump the brakes and stand on them, then he would momentarily open then close the bleed valve on the front caliper, then repeat this process. after some of this, he added the new fluid (ATE racing blue DOT5.1) and we repeated the above until the new oil started bleeding. then we did it 1-2 times on the other front caliper, then the new fluid started flowing from that valve.
and thats it...

how was it supposed to be done?
i wont have oppurtunity to try "the simch brake bedding procedure" for a few more days. but i'll write the results when i'm able.

BTW, this was not an Audi dealer, just a mechanic friend.
 
I'm no expert but I think that you probably have trapped air in the ABS manifold.
As far as I am aware you can solve this by using a pressurising kit to force the fluid through the system. I have also heard you can use vag-com to turn the ABS pump on and off when bleeding the brakes.
Sounds like a job for a VAG specialist.
 
Yes its air in the system alright. The pumps are a mare to bleed out.

I would suggest you get an easibleed kit the ones you connect to the air pressure of the tyre, and then you need to beleed through each caliper with it not just one.

Although OEM, I personally always use VAG pads on my cars. If they are crud, they will change them for new ones!
 
ok, so to the stealers it is...
whats an easibleed kit and where do you get it from?
 
Do not try heavy braking as somepeople have suggested, even suggesting it is irresponsible.
If your pedal feels spongy its nothing to do with new pads, there is air in your braking system and thats whats making it spongy, have them bled properly.
You should not brake heavily for at least 200 miles, the pads need time to wear to the face of the discs.

Would any responsible person take their car over the speed limit with questionable brakes and then jump on them? No, thats stupidity at its highest level.
 
No one is suggesting he does it with brakes that are suspect, if his pedal is spongy its air in the system and he should sort it asap. The post about bedding is realted to the claptrap that dealers etc tell you about brakes and how to bed them in. Its tripe! Light use of new pads and discs for 200 miles may be for some peope like a month of driving. All that happends in that time is light loads, short term heating and cooling of the discs etc and glazed pads. Brakes will then be inefficient for the next 20k miles that he has to drive on them before the pads wear out!
Also, surely by driving at all according to your definaition that is irresponsible. We were just trying to help the guy out with some advice, not provided him with an excuse to kill himself!

BTW, your 200 miles criteria is utter rubbish! How do you think race cars and track cars bed their brakes in....you reckon weekend racers go out and do 90 laps of Silverstone everytime they put new pads in, before they can set a qaulifying time...?! If you think about the stress a disc and pad goes through over its life, what the hell does the first 200 miles mean....All you need to do is work harden the discs and get the pad face to match up.....quicker and less painful that is done, the quicker you get your efficient and long lasting pedal and brakes.
BTW, I have been doing it the way I was taught in the late 1980s for over 20 years now, never warped any discs, always had great brakes from the outset using the method mentioned here.
I dont want you following me for the 200 miles that you have your light braking and inefficient brakes fella! Mine stops on a dime! I can feel an insurance claim coming on with you driving behind people on new brakes!

Oh, BTW, I know I am right! The guy who told me how to do it some 20 years ago is now in charge of AP Racing who I think own or are owned by (!!) Brembo! You can get an easibleed kit from Halford I think. Or google it to have a look.
 
Bedding in only improves the performance, the car will still stop in an emergency if the brakes are applied hard.
We're not talking about the brakes on a rally car here, the brembo site even concurs with what I said.
If you want to zoom about and stand on your brakes then you do that, and I wouldn't want to be following you for 200 miles because judging by your comments, you'd wait until the last minute and then stamp on the anchors and i'd probably drive up your ****..

Although I like to leave a nice distance so that probably wont happen.
do what makes you feel happy eh.
 
:friends:


no problem guys, as simch said i first need to sort out the air in the system...

thanks for all the helpful comments...

so anyone know how to properly bleed the system? would there be a guide on ELSA or somewhere else? (regarding the easibleed, i'm quite far from the nearest halfrauds, about 1200NM :) )
 
No, the brembo site does not concur with what you said at all! It says go out to a remote area and brake at least 30 times for three seconds a go.....! Hardly 200 mile of light use is it! Work out how long it takes an s3 to stop from 60 mph, or 70 as I was suggesting...! About 2 seconds!

Of course you know it all though, you just carry on with your 200 miles bedding in procedure. Then when you have crap brakes, maybe try it my way! You will see it works, every time.
 
I think 3 years and a fistful of City and Guilds 3830 repair and servicing of road vehicles certificates and about 16 years worth of mechanical experience means I do know. Thanks but i'll continue working my way. and if you can stop from 60 in 2 seconds thats not light braking thats extremely heavy.
I don't drive like Ayrton Senna and i don't need to brake like him nor do most people. If your method was necessary then a lot more tyres would be sold worldwide and manufacturers would put it in their manuals and they would teach it in colleges, I certainly wasn't told about it.
 
From Brembo...


The answer is yes, for optimum performance, any time different friction materials or discs are introduced, a bedding procedure should be carried out.
While the vehicle is stationary, pump brakes to ensure a firm pedal.
Drive the vehicle cautiously to test fit and function.
The brakes should be smooth, with no vibrations, judder, etc.
Drive the vehicle to a remote area and perform at least 30 brake applications of 3-second duration. Use light/medium deceleration with varying starting speeds. Leave at least ½ mile between each brake application.
The purpose of this procedure is to gradually increase the temperature in the components without inducing thermal shock, and to mate the brake pad and disc friction surfaces.
After the repeated stops, drive the vehicle for several miles with little or no braking in order to adequately cool the components.
After the above process is completed, the system is ready for normal use.
When the system achieves elevated brake temperatures for the first time, a slight increase in pedal travel and pedal effort may occur. After this first "fade" and proper cooling, the system will maintain its optimum performance at all temperatures.



does that say stomp on them and stop from 60 in 2 seconds? READ IT
 
Please, not the old 'I'm a mechanical engineer' line... I find it never strengthens any argument, nor does calling other folk irresponsible. Helpful is the phrase I'd use.

Besides, do you know how many 'engineers' have ******** up my cars over the years?

Anyway, back to brakes, and the bedding in thereof.

I do it the way my Dad did it on his road and rally cars, which is pretty much the way Simch describes it. Not quite as long a drive to cool the discs down though! I've never had any problems whatsoever in the last 20 years.

Yes, Brembo and all the other manufacturers have their recommended way of doing it, but at the end of the day the advice contains a lot of **** covering.

Bottom line, do it any way you like, but I doubt it will make a lot of difference to how your brakes perform or last...
 
A4Quattro said:
From Brembo...


The answer is yes, for optimum performance, any time different friction materials or discs are introduced, a bedding procedure should be carried out.
While the vehicle is stationary, pump brakes to ensure a firm pedal.
Drive the vehicle cautiously to test fit and function.
The brakes should be smooth, with no vibrations, judder, etc.
Drive the vehicle to a remote area and perform at least 30 brake applications of 3-second duration. Use light/medium deceleration with varying starting speeds. Leave at least ½ mile between each brake application.
The purpose of this procedure is to gradually increase the temperature in the components without inducing thermal shock, and to mate the brake pad and disc friction surfaces.
After the repeated stops, drive the vehicle for several miles with little or no braking in order to adequately cool the components.
After the above process is completed, the system is ready for normal use.
When the system achieves elevated brake temperatures for the first time, a slight increase in pedal travel and pedal effort may occur. After this first "fade" and proper cooling, the system will maintain its optimum performance at all temperatures.



does that say stomp on them and stop from 60 in 2 seconds? READ IT
Click to expand...

So no 200 miles light use then.....??? I can see from that quoted prose there, (all 20 lines of it or whatever) that that clearly is exactly what you said, about driving with light use for 200 miles.....? Although even doing exactly as they say I dont think you'd cover more than 20 miles max, and it would all be done in one hit, like "my" method.

Like I say, try it! You never know, you may actually learn something, if only that sometimes what your audi dealer, and muppets at quickfit tell you may well be total tosh!

As for how it makes a difference, try it and you will see. Incredible difference over glazed up pads!!
 
Yup, the Ferrodo DS2500 pads describe their bedding in process as light to moderate pressure from varying speeds 25-30 times, and it also states, if you want to speed up the process, then do the above one corners as well as straights.

For advanced, modern compounds even the manufacturers, who are covering for litigation reccommend the 80mph-20mpg type bedding in.

We aren't in the 60's anymore, we dont use asbestos as the major component in brake pads, so maybe some people just need to adapt to modern materials and way of thinking. Classic example of this is my stepfather who thinks tropical fishtanks should be heated with meths burners underneath a piece of slate!

Anyway, back to brakes, the above methods described by simch and I are use common use, reccommended by the manufacturers and the common thread is, we throw our cars around on trackdays, whereas the light braking for 200 miles crowd probably dont, and I bet they think new engines have to be run in too. Dave - 2007!!!!
 
treating my car with respect is not old school practice its just sensible.
 
guys, pleaaase, i get it about the bedding in (both methods), but what is the correct procedure for bleeding the brakes? do i really need to get the ABS pump working with VAG-COM?

thanks.
 
A4Quattro said:
I think 3 years and a fistful of City and Guilds 3830 repair and servicing of road vehicles certificates and about 16 years worth of mechanical experience means I do know. Thanks but i'll continue working my way. and if you can stop from 60 in 2 seconds thats not light braking thats extremely heavy.
I don't drive like Ayrton Senna and i don't need to brake like him nor do most people. If your method was necessary then a lot more tyres would be sold worldwide and manufacturers would put it in their manuals and they would teach it in colleges, I certainly wasn't told about it.
Click to expand...

City and Guilds eh...? Well I stand corrected!!!!! Clearly "you can't get better" than you "you are the boy to trust!"
Actually I dont drive like Ayrton Senna either, which is probably a good thing seeing as what happened to him. But it was his own fault, apparently Frank W told him to go easy on the brakes for the first 200 miles.....
 
@ dultanur. If you don't have Vag-Com, get your brakes re-bled with the engine running. The bleed sequence is very important too. Start at the master cylinder and work away from it.
This technique works for me, and I had to find it the hard way.

I also use the bedding in technique as described by simch. No problems there with my various sets of Ferodo DS2500s.
 
Had a pair of Brembos and pads fitted the other week, drove it carefully for about 150 miles as reccommended by the mechanic and it's all good.

Haven't done the stamp on your brakes technique before so i don't know if it's better or not but my brakes are certainly fine. :yes:
 
simch said:
City and Guilds eh...? Well I stand corrected!!!!! Clearly "you can't get better" than you "you are the boy to trust!"
Actually I dont drive like Ayrton Senna either, which is probably a good thing seeing as what happened to him. But it was his own fault, apparently Frank W told him to go easy on the brakes for the first 200 miles.....
Click to expand...

Don't ****** insult me, I never worked for Kwit-fit, I did my time at an independant garage, then Mercedes Benz, then an engine rebuilders.
What mechanical experience do you have exactly? (other than what people may have told you)

In fact don't bother to tell me I have already made up my own mind, based on your previous comments, and I don't care much for your advice, its irresponsible.

Schools out sucker.
 
Now are you sure you're in the following mood A4??! (Current Mood:
Relaxed.gif
)

Jeez, just calm down a bit!

Whilst not condoning Simch's recent bitey little posts, going about telling people that you know better than them as you have 'mechanical engineering qualifications' isn't really that polite is it?

It's ok to have different opinions about stuff, and it's good to share it sometimes, but experience can teach people just as much as formal training (and I don't know if anybody else who's posted on here has any obviously), and a combination of both is probably the best.

Anyway, there can often be more than one way of achieving something, wouldn't you agree, or is your way the only way?

Not so long ago, the world was flat, and the universe revolved around Earth remember?!

:)
 
oooooh, Mercedes garage eh!

So you were charged out at £100 per hour........!!

(...and paid £8!) .

I am very impressed indeed! You clearly know your stuff. You the man!!
 
I am chilled as this is only t'internet and I don't have anything personal against Simch, i don't know him.
I just wanted to point out that his way is not responsible in my opinion, i didn't say that mine was the only way, each to their own.

Peace out....
 
Are you meant to bed clutches in then......?
 
thanks for the advice secsret squirrel.
i'll be getting things done tomorrow and will write the results.
 
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