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1.8 N/A cams in a 1.8t?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by future, May 24, 2012.

  1. future
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    future Scuderia Vittoria Edition 001

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    [May 24, 2012]
    Bit of a random question really, was looking through a big turbo thread on another forum and the guy had decided to drop cams from a 1.8 N/A engine which i haven't seen before. I know a lot of guys do this in the s4/rs4 world but i just thought it would be interesting to see if anyone on here has tried it in the 1.8t's?


    cheers guys
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  3. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [May 24, 2012]
    It's not a good idea as I looked into it and they will kill drivability

    i'v just forked out for some piper cams
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  4. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [May 24, 2012]
    Seems quite common-place in other tuning circles, but doesn't seem to have reached the 1.8T world.

    Whether this is because it doens't work, or because nobody has dared try it yet, I do not know.

    I'd love to find out though. Just drop in an AGN inlet cam and see what happens on the dyno.

    I personally think Bill / Tufty / Welly should test it out for us :p
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  5. future
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    future Scuderia Vittoria Edition 001

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    [May 24, 2012]
    this is what i wanted to find out...ahem queue tufty/welly for testing? :icon_thumright:
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  6. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [May 25, 2012]
    If someone wants to send me an AGN cam I'll happily throw it in my new engine build and test it!
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  7. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 25, 2012]
    i still wait on seeing some actual facts and evidence and not the usual BS anecdotal shyte......

    "I heard", "I read" etc etc

    ffs
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  8. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [May 25, 2012]
    I think until someone does some testing there isn't going to be any evidence Bill.

    I know from results on other vehicles that fitting cams from an n/a version of an engine has opened things up at the top end considerably. Andy fitted phase 2 S40 n/a cams to his T4 turbo engine, and it moved the power band up considerably and allowed the engine to rev much more and make power where previously it was flat as a pancake.this was only when fitted with a massive turbo though, fitting the cams to a standard engine allowed the engine to breathe at the top end where the turbo could not flow well, so netted no gains.

    I don't completely understand how to interpret cam data though in terms of how how lift and overlap will change the way it drives, so I'm not best placed to say what it'll do!
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  9. future
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    future Scuderia Vittoria Edition 001

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    [May 25, 2012]
    on the hunt for an agn cam now and we will see what happens :whistle2:
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  10. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 25, 2012]
    is it just agn cams? not adr atmos ones?
    wondering about the logic (if there is any) on why only one atmos 20v got atmos different cams

    heresay being the inlet cam has more lift and gave gains >4krpm.... but I have never found and data for this..

    IE do an inlet cam (when they get stock again) which give some gains.. with their dyno tests
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  11. future
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    future Scuderia Vittoria Edition 001

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    [May 25, 2012]
    I've searched a fair bit and have found the same hearsay that you have bill, but no one seems to be able to back it up with andy data :think:
    i know the ADR cams have a higher lift than 1.8t cams but don't know how they compare to AGN cams, think it might be a ebay hunt time to compare.
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  12. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    [May 25, 2012]
    Searching on Zine, INA said this "NA cams are virtually the same profile as the turbo cams" and on Vortex Issam said the ADR cams are the same as AEB cams but people seem to say different..but yeah its all my mate said this and i heard that..no solid proof.

    VWVortex.com - Cams 1.8 20V na, In 1.8T?

    Some more details here which Bill posted on but again no proof, just wild claims.

    k04 Hybrid for 210/225 owners, LCR/TT/S3 etc-330bhp achieved!! - Page 26 - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum

    Just comes down to someone having the balls (and cash to throw around for possible 0 gain) to test it. If someone wants to send me £208 i`ll order up an inlet cam :p
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  13. future
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    future Scuderia Vittoria Edition 001

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    [May 25, 2012]
    if i can find a cam i will chuck it over when i replace my vvt gasket (should be a few weeks time) and see if i find any differences, then hopefully we can have something a little more substantial :yes:
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  14. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [May 25, 2012]
    The whole point of turbo cams is to have less or even no overlap. N/a on the other hand have more over lap to help with delays in air flow. Surely the only thing an a/n cam would be good for is if as mentioned it had more lift? This would then have to be offset by the loses of the increased overlap. I can't think that extra overlap the n/a would give you would increase performance, valve lift, yes I think that would good. I would say stock turbo cams but with increased lift would be the idea option
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  15. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [May 25, 2012]
    Extra overlap would help initial spool at lower rpm hence all the talk of using VVT in mapping recently..

    <tuffty/>
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  16. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [May 25, 2012]
    Yes I understand that, but there must come a point where extra overlap, as you would get with a N/A cam would be detremental to the performance rather than helpful.

    VVT to some point you can control Ie use the extra over lap when you need it and turn it "off" when you don't. You have a fixed N/A overlapped cam in the there and you then have no control, what acts as the benefit to spool becomes a hinderance later.

    I assume this extra overlap that is being talked about is ok for the non VVt engines but in a VVT don't you run the risk of valves hitting pistons if there's to much overlap?

    The only experience of such I've had was on a type 1 beetle engine I used to race, fitted with a 2.1 t3 turbo, it originally had a stock cam, plenty of overlap, it made good figures C200bhp fitting a non overlapped high lift turbo cam saw a 25bhp increase without any other tuning or mods, and this was put down to the fact the inlet charge was remaining in the cylinder rather than some escaping due to the overlap with the stock cam.

    The higher boost you run the less overlap you need.


    I agree extra lift is definately a bonus... and do those running hybrids really need quicker spool? these things seem to make too much boost to early as it is....


    I certainly never run anything other than stock cams on the 1.8t so would be very interested in any results/testing,
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  17. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [May 25, 2012]
    I would like to see what they do but it's something I wouldn't like to try until I see results that's why I ended up getting piper cams

    I try and research everything I buy from tuners and forums

    Putting na cams in a turbo engine there is to much of a mix review for my liking
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  18. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [May 25, 2012]
    Well ik buying the ina inlet cam, but like bill said, thtall be when they get them in stock, whats it been now, 4 months?
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  19. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 1, 2012]
    Well I'm not going to wait for someone else to try it. Although hampered by a paucity of N/A parts here Stateside, I'm going to test a variety of configurations. What interests me about N/A cams? Well, let's start out with some background from the 30v engine. Audi (and its high performance subsidiary RennSport) specified differing intake cam profiles for its three variants on the B5-series 30v engine. Here is how they compare:

    [​IMG]

    The high performance cam for RS4 has much more in common with that from the lowly N/A motor. But for an increased lift at the centerline, they're functionally identical. So why did the OEM restore that N/A profile when designing a high-output design? An interesting question, wouldn't you say?

    So what are the analogs to these profiles in 1.8T? Well, unsurprisingly, our motors came from the factory with cam profiles identical to those in the 2.7T. And there never was a RennSport variant, so that RS4 profile presumably is a one-off. But what about the middle ground, eh? That's where cams from the ADR and AGN motor come in. My research indicates these came with a very high valve lift. Depending upon the source of my information, they were either .331 or .346. The former value is far more accepted, so I expect that to be accurate. Now take a look at that number and see how it compares to the RS4 above. Yes. That's right. Identical.

    Here is what I'm going to do: submit an example of the ADR .331 (published) intake cam to these folks. They're the ones who provided the test data I used to create the above graph. Then I will know exactly how it compares. If I'm satisfied with the new profile, it will go into the FrankenTT for testing.

    And you guys? Well, you could sit and wait for me. Or one of you can take advantage of your proximity to these parts and simply buy one yourselves! You see, unlike me isolated in North America, you have sellers all over the place who have these parts available. Here is just one example:
    BGA Automotive Camshaft CS3304 | eBay

    As I like to say, "Let's Do This".
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  20. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 1, 2012]
    Good work Doug, look forward to the results :D

    <tuffty/>
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  21. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jul 1, 2012]
    Nice one Doug! Top work :)
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  22. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 1, 2012]
    Doug, what's the valve overlap on these cams. I'm sure any advantage you get with the extra lift is offset with any extra overlap n/a cams give, from my experience with vw type 1 engines overlap on turbo engines is a waste and these n/a ones must have more overlap than the turbo ones.
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  23. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 1, 2012]
    I'm testing one fundamental theory I have: the aftermarket is oriented to big-turbo performance. So the camshaft options available via those sources are inappropriate to what I do. A strong indicator of that is the lobe center measurements for "high performance" cams. They all have narrow measurements. And the closer the lobes get to one another, the more overlap. And I believe overlap is a bad thing on small, high back-pressure turbos like I traffic in. Much better is increased valve lift, and increased duration at that max lift. Or at least that's the thinking I'm starting off with. And the N/A motors offer cams (both intake and exhaust) which emphasize lift versus overlap.
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  24. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 1, 2012]
    Any chance these cams can fit so there is no overlap and thus the cam shaft sensor rotor be moved appropriately? High lift, long duration no overlap...
    #23
  25. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Jul 1, 2012]
    So would these be just a case of drop in and thats it or would other mods be needed like adjustable cam gears etc?
    #24
  26. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 1, 2012]
    A typical 1.8T motor left the factory outputting 45bhp per cylinder. The RennSport RS4 motor output ~65bhp per cylinder. A hybrid 1.8T is in the range of 80bhp per cylinder. So which cam type seems the most sensible? Ones like the 45bhp motor or those found in the motor outputting ~50% more per cylinder? Another thing to consider: all 30v motors had more "aggressive" exhaust cams than the 1.8T. And they all shared one profile -- even the RennSport car retained it. They changed the intake cam. They redesigned the head. But the original exhaust cam, they retained. Here it is:

    [​IMG]

    Anybody want to guess where we can find an exhaust cam like this one? Hehe. In a naturally-aspirated 1.8L.
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  27. future
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    future Scuderia Vittoria Edition 001

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    [Jul 1, 2012]
    Top work Doug, looking forward to the results! :)
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  28. BuuBBa
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    BuuBBa Member

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    [Jul 2, 2012]
    This really intersts me! If I could find some decent cams for my ~400hp build and save some €...

    One Finnish guy wrote this to VWvortex:


    Really looking forward to see test results with different cam setups.! Should we collect "offertory" to get this done :thumbsup:
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  29. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 2, 2012]
    I had all the lift numbers and cam durations for the range of 20v intake and exhaust cams noted down somewhere. Theres actually quite a range of 1.8 NA profiles, so i'll try and dig them out and will add them to this thread.
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  30. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 2, 2012]
    inlet:

    058109021 = ADR und AFY 8,78mm, 210°, 4° n.OT
    058109021.B = APX, ANB, AEB,APU, AJL, AGU, AQA, ARZ, AJQ, APP, APY, AUL 7,67mm, 190°, 18° n.OT
    058109021.K = ADR, APT, ARG, AVV 8,41mm, 202°, 16° n.OT
    058109021.M = AWT, AUM, ARX, ARY, AUQ, AMK, BAM, AUL, APP 7,67mm, 190°, 18° n.OT
    058109021.F = AGN, APG 8,41mm, 202°, 18° n. OT
    058109021.E = AWB 8,6mm, 207°, 9° n.OT
    058109021.D = ADR, AGN 8,41mm, 202°, 12° n. OT


    esxaust:

    058109022.B = AQA, ARZ, AJQ, APP, APY, AEB, APU, ANB, AJL, AWT, AGU, AUM, ARX, ARY, AUQ, AMK, BAM 9,3mm, 210°, 10° v.OT
    058109022.C = ADR, AFY, APT, ARG, AVV 10,25mm, 210°, 8° v.OT
    058109022.D = AGN, APG 10,4mm, 210°, 8° v.OT


    v.OT = vor dem Oberen Totpunkt = before Top Dead Centre
    n.OT = nach dem oberen Totpunkt = after Top Dead Centre


    Lift, duration and valve opening time are all there for each option.

    Maybe this partially explains why theres no concrete info, in that at various points folk may have tried an 1.8NA cam and may or may not have had success with it, depending on exactly which option they choose. Given the wild differences i can imagine that each cam will perform differently. It also shows that simply saying "AGN" cam or "ADR" cam isnt enough, as both of those engines have multiple cam choices!
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
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  31. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 2, 2012]
    Well in an ideal world you'd want a mixture of cams . The inlet Definately needs to be as late as possible on BTC . 18 degrees as I think the 4 degrees is just to early. And the exhaust needs to be open as late as possible as well. It's a real shame as in there is the perfect turbo cam , if only you could combine the AGN and bam cams. On paper the late opening AGN cams look good.
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  32. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 2, 2012]
    Sorry just to check is v.ot and n.ot the right way round?
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  33. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 2, 2012]
    they're defo the right way round! I thought the same at first, but the cams are just very mild, and i think the measurements are from 1mm to 1mm rather than 0.1mm to 0.1mm which reduces the "on paper" figures.
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  34. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 2, 2012]
    Let's not take that oft-repeated list of cams as chapter and verse. Instead, I'll accumulate actual parts for measurement and (possible) testing. First off the bat, is the AE cam part no. 744. It is listed as being suitable for replacement of both the "B" and "C" exhaust cams in that list. Not very helpful product info considering the differing specs between those two. Today I took delivery of this actual part fresh from your shores, and confirmed it has a 10.25mm lift, which makes it appear to be a "N/A" exhaust cam, and probably the "C" type. So we're off to a good start. I will be sending it in for analysis and comparison to a 1.8T cam later this week. Additionally, I will be investigating the 210 / 210 aftermarket cams offered by EuroSpec, as well as a set of Chinese-made aftermarket parts for naturally aspirated engines which I've been able to source. The only missing piece of my puzzle is the AGN cam. It's sold there by an Ebay store, but he will not deal with overseas types like me. If anyone there wants to volunteer to be my purchasing agent, drop me a line by email.

    Thx
    #33
  35. moredoor
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    [Jul 3, 2012]
    In another life I played around a lot with Fiat/Lancia turbo motors, I've try'd loads of n/a turbo mix cam setups. Single cam 8v uno turbo cam would spool up well but dropped off @ 5.5k, fit a n/a cam and the same motor would spool up alot later, 4k but would pull strong all the way to 7k. Cos it was a 8v single cam motor the over lap between ex and inlet seemed to be the key to low down spool/lag. Now on the twin cam 8v and 16v turbo motors dropping in only the n/a inlet cam really did work very well. The diff between Fiat n/a and turbo inlet cams was n/a had 1mm of lift and 16 degrees more plus opening timing sooner. So going by the info posted on here the slight diff in the n/a 20v should/could!? work.............? really need to be tested, I do know that non vvt cams don't work with vvt.
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  36. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 3, 2012]
    Common mod in the vauxhall world was to fit a 20xe inlet cam to a LET, however you needed a vernier pulley on the inlet side and had to retard it half a tooth to reduce the overlap, or it hurt you more than you gained.

    Problem on the 20vt is its not particularly easy to add a vernier to do the same thing, due to the hybrid belt/chain cam drive. So you really need a N/A cam with the right specs to work on the stock marks. Hopefully though, with the range that appears to be available, one of them will do the job!
    #35
  37. BENJAMIN
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    BENJAMIN Active Member

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    [Jul 3, 2012]
    I'm having a go at this on a customers car on Saturday. I recently fitted it with an Ihi vf34 so hopefully this will exacerbate the gains (if any). Will keep all updated.
    #36
  38. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jul 3, 2012]
    you going to do before / after dynos or logs Ben? Be very keen to see the results!

    Do you know which cam it is you're fitting?
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  39. BENJAMIN
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    BENJAMIN Active Member

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    [Jul 3, 2012]
    Its going to have to be logs in afraid, Alex's car is d##khead low and won't get on the dyno. I know there's a couple of ADR a4's in the scrapyard so probably one of them, I'll have a look around and may get a couple if available.
    #38
  40. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 3, 2012]
    ​What horsepower is the car delivering currently? Why is the customer making this change?
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  41. v5 tt
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    v5 tt Member

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    [Jul 3, 2012]
    I dont know how much relevance this has but anyone tried adjustable vernier pulleys ?
    #40

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