Hybrid time the push for 400hp... AMG turbine opinions ??

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Natebrand1987

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its time for a hybrid admittedly my stock turbo is now passed its best ( not smoking just a slight bit more play than when i bought the car ) after 4 months of hammer and 1.8bar ( cry ) so before it catastrophically fails i am going to hybrid

looking at 11 blade billet 51 ind. 67exd. 71 tips with a AMG turbine

with a 2.4% ind and 8% exd increase it should flow well ...

i have seen differing opinions around this turbine across the net but from indirect sources has anyone ran one on here ?

what extra lag was seen and what top end was gained ? emp egt reductions also ??

both the hot end and the cold end will need to be machined to get this to work but the gains on paper look worth it just need some direct advice from people running one...

cheers peeps
 
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I believe you want to fit the AMG turbine to a gtb2260vk , right ? Then best would be to talk to desertstorm as he's running one of them hybrids. I will however advice against the 11 blade GTX style compressor and stick with a 6+6 blade compressor wheel. I am looking at getting a similar hybrid turbo with a 69mm compressor wheel...
 
Firstly thanks for the replies..

I have tried both 6+6 and an 11 blade compressor in my old vklr bb unit on my 1.9 and tbh there is disadvantages and advantages of both after trying the 6+6 after the 11 blade I wasn't convinced on the pros of a 6+6 the 11 blade seemed to give better all round performance for daily driving .

And bobby don't tease me lol... For now I'm just trying to create the best direct replacement turbo to see what it can do then possibly in the future go large frame .

The power would he great but I had alot of custom work on the 1.9 and I'm trying to keep away from that ( till im bored )

Although bobby I am interested in what you did in the map to read emp from the pre dpf sensor if you're willing to share ? Is the other sensor where the cat used to be an egt or o2 sensor ? Can tgis be utilised to save fitting 2 aftermarket gauges ? Obvs if its an o2 then no but hopefully its egt I'll have to look in vcds to see if I have an output from it
 
No Im not willing to give this information out but I will say the current deltaP is a model :)
I only started logging emp when i fitted the s200 - welded a turbo oil feed adaptor directly into the Y collector and then used a scrap steel oil feed pipe.
Also the oem sensor doesn't read high enough.
If you don't want to log a simple gauge will do - I use this myself for tuning work.
 
It's seems I'll look to get some gauges then ... I just cba with a cockpit full of gauges I'll run them to my glove box so they are hidden and they can be pulled out for testing.

What boost do you think this combination of hybrid could produce ? 2.2 bar ? Safe? The larger turbine will give more flow at any rpm so the gains on the hot end will help flow from start to finish no point in having a hell of alot of boost but low exhaust flow it just causes less power and lots of heat and pressure..

I will of course need the bi turbo tmap aswell then map the new table in for it to suite the new range
 
I have the r85 pump already so fueling should not be an issue ...
 
Why would you want emp permanently connected? Once set up just remove it.
Also, boost is one thing and then shaft speed is another. Without a speed sensor you never really know what the turbo is doing.

But yes i would say 2.2bar is ok. But ask your turbo supplier not that they'll cover it anyways.
 
No but shaft speed can be inferred by increasing charge temps when you increase the boost when tuning as it will be going off the graph and inefficient. I have never actually monitored shaft speed where do you need to tap in the sensor on the comp housing ?

My turbo supplier has never put this wheel and turbine together for this engine so its a little unknown I believe it's slightly larger than desertstorms so should have a lower shaft speed for the same cfm which is good. I think I will just have to maximise vnt and fueling low down to get it spooling
 




Hybrid will be on next week getting bored so thought id post these up for peeps to look at ...

Tbh just shows you how brutal the hardcut is in slow Mo...

And why I never had one on my previous cars are its dangerous for hardware I just thought I'd try one

It "probably" contributed to my turbo wear no doubt

When the hybrid gets edited in i will get it removed
 
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after a wait a holiday and a little more waiting the turbo was removed on friday and should be back with me this evening.

all i can say it was an easy removal the turbo on this engine is nice position and very welcomed to what im used to on the 1.9s .

although i didnt realise the oil return was split and o ringed until i lifted turbo up i thought i snapped it haha my heart stopped for a second


anyway

spec is as follows

10 Blade - 51/67+4 to 71 total tip to tip

AMG Turbine - 2.4% larger Ind. 8% larger Exd.

i do believe its one of the largest hybrids on this engine type ( obvs with outgoing large frame ) so fingers crossed it should make some good results
 
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I can't see why you won't make 400 bhp with that. I went for a slightly smaller compressor because I was concerned about the spool and low speed performance.My car went to Ricks twice to be mapped. The second time he made a lot of changes to the mapping to get the spool better and reduce the smoke. Whilst he was altering the maps we got 800Nm and just over 390bhp on the dyno.
800Nm is too much for a daily driver so that was teaked back to 750Nm and the car was just hitting the EGT limiter at 900 degrees without the water methanol. So the fuelling was backed off to around 380bhp where it runs fine without WMI.
All the 3.0 TDI's I have seen that run over 400 bhp need WMI to keep the EGT's sensible.
You don't need an EMP gauge full time just makes tuning easier looking at what the EMP is doing. You would be surprised how much EMP increases with small increases in boost. The only way for more boost to be produced at high RPM is for the VNT to be closed up to give more turbine speed. This causes more of a restriction in the exhaust resulting in higher EMP's and EGT's.
Personally I would never go for a hard cut limiter, you are potentially going to run into a big problem with the turbo, especially when you have bigger turbine and compressor wheels with the same size shaft as a standard car. The rapid slowing and accelerating of the compressor and turbine causes twisting forces on the shaft that can snap it.
 
yes which is why i am ditching it it sounds cool *** hell but i am putting my quick turbo wear to the hardcut the instant velocity changes involved are no good.

on the 1.9s i used to see the vnt open as rpm increased ( higher gas flow ) to keep the boost in check. not closed. but seeing as this is my first venture into tuning these we will see on the logs and the dyno what is going on.

i am a little concerned about spool also, larger on both sides. but being a 10 blade it should pick the air up well so hoping it wont be too bad my fueling is clean and vnt not maxxed so the mapping should negate alot of it. it will be interesing to see how the ecu copes on the map for the stock turbo for a few weeks

im getting itchy now havnt had the car in 3 days the turbo man needs to come through for me today as i have work on tursday and i cba with fitting a turbo the night before work lol
 
Fortunately it's pretty easy to change the turbo over on these cars. I had mine on and off so many time I could swap them over in less than an hour easily. The VNT does open at higher RPM to control boost but what I was trying to say is that if you increase boost request in an attempt to chase more power there is a limit where EMP increases a lot for a small increase in boost.
 
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I think I have a similar problem to you it's smoking after booting it then cruising and idle .

I have the twin ring turbine

The turbo man says run it see if it improves if not he will have it back for a look

Hopefully the seal will seat properly and get to know the shaft along with a little carbon helping
 
well the supplier has had it back and changed the outer turbine seal to a staggered and left the inner one normal , i believe he should of used 2 staggered ones as it was smoking but its clearing up as i put miles on it. see how times goes on but if it doesnt go 100% he will be having it back
 
Better to fit 2 staggered seals. There is little difference in the price and the staggered seal is a lot better for stopping oil leaks.
 
yup i am aware the turbo guy did what he wanted so he will most likely have it back for a 2nd time to fit again
 
doesnt make sense tbh for the sake of pennies. it takes me 15 minutes to rip that turbo off. but him hours ........
 
I think the issue is the way that the big turbine makes boost, with free flow exhaust there is little difference hence the oil is drawn towards the exhaust side and it starts burning. The staggered gap seals are just a bandaid but they do work as intended. The large frame turbos are designed for 6-8 cyl engines with massive exhaust flow and particulate traps which keep back pressure in check. By making the exhaust too free flowing we are running into issues especially when running the turbos off boost ! The real solution is compound turbocharging but it needs to be carefully done and turbos a close match !
 
I did have quite a few issues with oil smoke on my turbo but that is all sorted now. As Chris says above the issue appears to be the back pressure in the exhaust system or rather lack of it.
The original turbo used in the AMG C30 a 3.0 TDI engine used the same size turbine with only a single oil control ring and obviously had no issues. However it had a cat which provided back pressure.I searched long and hard to try and find out if they had problems with these cars if the cat was removed but could find nothing.
The original GTB2260 on the cars have 2 oil control rings. There are two reasons for this, one being the need to reduce oil leakages from the turbine side as oil ash in a DPF does not burn off so will eventually help to block it.
The other may be to try and limit the amount of pressurised exhaust gas finding it's way past the seals into the turbo. With a partially blocked DPF there would be a lot more exhaust pressure than you would typically see and hot exhaust gas in the centre section wouldn't be good. The gas causes aeration of the oil flow and hinders return of oil to the sump.
It's not unheard of for a car to start smoking when the DPF is gutted because of the lack of back pressure in the exhaust.
Other things can affect this such as the setup of the turbo, the fully closed gap of the VNT needs to be set correctly. This is adjusted on a flow bench by rotating the compressor housing. Or could be done with an exhaust pressure gauge.
Also the N75 map can be adjusted. The car doesn't have an N75 but the equivalent map exists to give the ECU an idea of the position of the VNT actuator. With a larger slower responding turbo this needs tweaking to help the turbo to spool.
The biggest issue I had initially was at part throttle low RPM at around 12-1600 RPM with low back pressure and low shaft speed you got the worst problem. Oil pressure restrictors helped slightly but the main cure I think lies in mapping, turbo setup and a small amount of back pressure.
Also the amount of oil use will probably decrease as carbon deposits build up around the seal but this takes several hundred miles.
You need to check that the oil level isn't too high and that the crankcase breather is working correctly and there isn't excessive crankcase pressure. I connected a low pressure gauge to the dipstick tube on my car and took it driving to see if there was any crankcase pressure.
 
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the engine is breathing as should, oil level is fine and yes i agree at around those rpms are where the problem is with more miles this is slowly sorting due to the carbon build up but its starting to do my head in i commute to work around 300 miles a week im at around 300 miles and the smoke has diminished almost completely but we arent there yet i can still smell it smoke or not but its going in the right direction with only the odd puff of smoke for a second after a low rpm cruise then WOT then clears again. the trubo guy did say he had to trim to the vnt blades by a mm for safety as he thought they may touch ( but luckily even on stock map the extra lag is minimul for the size4increase )

i agree that it needs a map, with the boost maps set to achieve 1.8 bar mid range then tailing off after 4k for a stock turbo the vnt maps can no longer achieve that for such an upgrade i have gone for as they are set for a stock turbo so now i only achieve 1.5bar but it still seems equally fast which i put down to more through put ( larger turbine )

to answer adams statement, im not compounding it lol its saying hybrid thats it i cba with another custom build too much hassle and head aches.

so yeah to conclude i think we all agree i need to get it mapped

more vnt more pressure more fuel more soot to help seal the turbine and of course push it to 2.0bar or maybe slightly more

i think for now i will just get it to the limit of the stock sensor then if proved reliable get it upped to 2.2bar in time
 
I don't understand why the car isn't making 1.8 bar . I ran my hybrid on the phase 1 standard turbo map for quite a while and it easily made 1.8 bar, in fact over about 4200 RPM the VNT was fully open as the ECU was trying to control the lower boost figure of the standard turbo map.
 
its possibly due to the fact i have a larger wheel than you and the vnt has been clipped. this will aide flow but mean the vnt needs to be set more closed than an unclipped vnt mechanism
 
ill have to do some proper logs when i get chance i just looked on my bluetooth thing not on vcds
 
Just to conclude this thread , the hybrid has now settled down the smoke has ceased with some miles on it and i am very happy with it...

I'll start a new thread for the tuning of the new set up when I get chance

Thanks to all involved
 
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I havnt don't anything with it yet still on the old map which was 344hp and 720nm . As above I'll start a new thread when it comes to tuning graphs and values
 
sorry been busy, yes it broke the dyno havnt been back since. running 2.1bar and 95iq currently its quite quick.
 
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Whats iq at 4k? stock railp? duration also increased?
I'm working on a car at the moment and I fitted a hybrid turbo with a cw 50/75 7+7 and exh 49.2/52
Should flow 400hp but I'll post the results when its finished.
 
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2000bar and 95iq and 2.05bar to 4k then it tails off but rail pressure is dropping kept getting fault codes .

I changed my 10k old fuel filter and it got alot better no codes but still dropping slightly I need an r100 pump if you know any vehicles that direct fit ??
 
yes its a capa. the dyno broke at 370hp the pulley moved and ****** the dyno belt. that was at 1.8 bar and 70iq there was issues getting the fuel up to 95iq in the first place it seemed stuck at 75iq for a while.. but then we was achieving demanded after a few limiter edits albeit the odd code and dropping pressure i was sure it was the old fuel filter and we had been at it most of the day due to me driving 2hrs each way and the dyno breaking so at 6pm i was ready to go home as mentioned above changing the filter improved it 95% although still dropping very slightly ... its not good logging in a city centre 3rd WOT as you can imagine ( private road obvs ) so to conclude yeah we got 2.05bar 95iq to 4k eventally but it never ran on the dyno on the final map ..
but considering the figures im sure ill be up high 300s if not 400hp with my amg, 51/71, 3" delete and straight through back with a huge ic got to be surely..... it smokes supposed 350hp ( claimed ) mapped audi s3 for breakfast although being alot heavier and it did do 2 v8 m3s from a standing start to 100mph, but they were reeling me in after a while when they got their back end in check (rwd) say after 80mph ( again private road few around where i live ) on the stock turbo and prior map. so im confident but i do need to run again just a 4wd dyno is rare in my part of the world its a pain and hrs of drive .....
 
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