A4 2.0tfsi Stage 2+ running rich....hotter plug??

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ramboDTM

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Right, bought my DTM a month ago, and its had a stage 2+ remap done by AMD. Its got uprated intercoolers, fuel pump, RS4 fuel valve, inlet flaps deleted, sports cat and exhaust, panel filter....the usual.

However, the guy I bought it from had S3 injectors fitted because he was going to put a KO4 turbo in, but he sold it before getting round to it. So, the car is mapped with S3 injectors, but no bigger turbo. The paperwork says 270bhp and 330lbft, and (to me anyway) it "seems" to go well, with no real running issues.

Right, so thats my life story out the way, the problem I've got is its running rich. The best its done is 315miles to a 65ltr fill up, which is 22mpg. I know they arent great on fuel, but that was on a run and driving like an old man.

Now, I expect everyone to say "well you shouldnt have those injectors", which is right really, but AMD tuned the map down a bit to compensate, so I'd like to think they'd of done it properly, but who knows.

So this brings me onto the plugs. It had BKR7's in it (one stage colder) which is the usual thing, but they are black as black, and stink of fuel. So I thought I'd try some BKR6's (the standard heat range) just as a temporary measure to help the overfueling. Well, the engine warms up quicker (used to take ages), and as I live close to work, I'm only doing short journeys during the week, so I think this will help things. But what do you guys think??

I know the standard plugs arent supposed to be good for such a tuned car, but has anyone actually had any problems?? Would I be ok as long as I dont drive flat out everywhere? And if theres any geniuses out there, could they shed some light on the overfueling issue??


sorry for the essay, but it always helps to have the full story.

thanks in advance ;)
 
ramboDTM said:
Right, bought my DTM a month ago, and its had a stage 2+ remap done by AMD. Its got uprated intercoolers, fuel pump, RS4 fuel valve, inlet flaps deleted, sports cat and exhaust, panel filter....the usual.

However, the guy I bought it from had S3 injectors fitted because he was going to put a KO4 turbo in, but he sold it before getting round to it. So, the car is mapped with S3 injectors, but no bigger turbo. The paperwork says 270bhp and 330lbft, and (to me anyway) it "seems" to go well, with no real running issues.

Right, so thats my life story out the way, the problem I've got is its running rich. The best its done is 315miles to a 65ltr fill up, which is 22mpg. I know they arent great on fuel, but that was on a run and driving like an old man.

Now, I expect everyone to say "well you shouldnt have those injectors", which is right really, but AMD tuned the map down a bit to compensate, so I'd like to think they'd of done it properly, but who knows.

So this brings me onto the plugs. It had BKR7's in it (one stage colder) which is the usual thing, but they are black as black, and stink of fuel. So I thought I'd try some BKR6's (the standard heat range) just as a temporary measure to help the overfueling. Well, the engine warms up quicker (used to take ages), and as I live close to work, I'm only doing short journeys during the week, so I think this will help things. But what do you guys think??

I know the standard plugs arent supposed to be good for such a tuned car, but has anyone actually had any problems?? Would I be ok as long as I dont drive flat out everywhere? And if theres any geniuses out there, could they shed some light on the overfueling issue??


sorry for the essay, but it always helps to have the full story.

thanks in advance ;)
Click to expand...
Hi mate, IMO the over fueling is with the the S3 injectors. Although the map is tuned down so to speak, it will still have an increased demand of fuel coming into the combustion chamber, I would say this where your over fueling issue is coming from. Also I would definitely stick to the bkr7s as it keeps things cooler which you want really. Last thing you want is higher EGT's regardless of how you drive. Personally I would either bang a k04 on it, or put the standard injectors back in.
 
cheers for reply

to be honest, everything you've said is what I think anyway, as of course, either changing injectors, or putting in a bigger turbo is the correct course of action. Its just funds wont allow for either turbo or injectors for a few months, so thought I'd just get some opinions for the short term.

as for the plugs, after a very limited short term conclusion, the engine appears to run better (because of the short journeys), but hasnt really improved fuel consumption (which you'd expect really), so maybe I'll just have to get some 7's for now and leave it running rich for a few months. Although, it did occur to me that with it running rich, wouldnt that help things stay a bit cooler and maybe take the edge of the hotter plug problems?

Any ideas on how long the engine can run rich for before it starts upsetting piston rings etc?? My limited experience says that it should be quite a while before anything like that happens, but I'm no expert!


on reflection, this might of seemed like a pointless thread I suppose, but just wanted some opinions
 
ramboDTM said:
cheers for reply

to be honest, everything you've said is what I think anyway, as of course, either changing injectors, or putting in a bigger turbo is the correct course of action. Its just funds wont allow for either turbo or injectors for a few months, so thought I'd just get some opinions for the short term.

as for the plugs, after a very limited short term conclusion, the engine appears to run better (because of the short journeys), but hasnt really improved fuel consumption (which you'd expect really), so maybe I'll just have to get some 7's for now and leave it running rich for a few months. Although, it did occur to me that with it running rich, wouldnt that help things stay a bit cooler and maybe take the edge of the hotter plug problems?

Any ideas on how long the engine can run rich for before it starts upsetting piston rings etc?? My limited experience says that it should be quite a while before anything like that happens, but I'm no expert!

No such thing as a pointless thread mate if it answers your question. Better to be safe then sorry. For me running rich isn't that much of an issue as its a lot less detrimental to the engine as apose to running lean.
Just un burnt fuel and the fact that the fuel will be thinning the oil out so it won't be protecting the engine as much. I have a set of k03 injectors if you get stuck, but you may have to adjust the map at more expense.
Best option would be to drop the oil regularly until you get it sorted. Just to be on the safe side

on reflection, this might of seemed like a pointless thread I suppose, but just wanted some opinions
Click to expand...
 
Don't know what the hell has happened there, but my reply is in there somewhere . ^^^^^
 
cheers mate, yeh, its there somewhere ;)

if I could have the map tweaked cheaply, then I'd prob fit standard injectors, but it could be another £400 on top to remap it, so I may as well go the turbo route for a bit more.

I was planning on changing oil every 6 months anyway, so hopefully that'll be enough, and I should have the ko4 by then anyway.

its just one of those silly things where you contemplate spending hundreds of pounds trying to chase an extra 5mpg lol, just so you know the car is running right haha
 
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We did data logging on my car today at badger5,i have ko4 and s3 injectors but only a revo st2 ko3 map,the ecu seems to be able to control the fuelling and compensate for the larger injectors,no problems so far,custom map soon i hope,ko4 conversion is great.
 
see, this is what gets to me........

I totally agree with what craig has said about the injectors overfueling (its what I thought myself) but it still niggles me that the ECU should be able to compensate, but who knows, the only way for me to really tell is to put a k04 on it and get it mapped

And as for the consumption, mine used to say that as well. It would be telling me I'd done 37mpg on a similar run to yours, but when I worked it out, it had only done about 25mpg!!! Just to take the edge of things and to give me half a chance, I recalibrated the consumption reading using VCDS, so now its roughly reading right lol. Consumption is *****, but at least the car knows that now haha
 
ramboDTM said:
see, this is what gets to me........

I totally agree with what craig has said about the injectors overfueling (its what I thought myself) but it still niggles me that the ECU should be able to compensate, but who knows, the only way for me to really tell is to put a k04 on it and get it mapped

And as for the consumption, mine used to say that as well. It would be telling me I'd done 37mpg on a similar run to yours, but when I worked it out, it had only done about 25mpg!!! Just to take the edge of things and to give me half a chance, I recalibrated the consumption reading using VCDS, so now its roughly reading right lol. Consumption is *****, but at least the car knows that now haha
Click to expand...
Unless you have incorrect readings coming from the lambda, that could throw your fueling out.

I found bill to be dam rite clever and arrogant. Talk about hard work, I can tell when someone's giving me attitude. Wouldn't recommend him to anyone.
 
Well here's something that I'm really not sure if its too worrying or not.....

just took the standard 6 plugs out (should be too hot a plug for the engine) and after a week of spirited town driving they are black!! Now, the 7's I took out were black, but I kinda expected that if its overfueling so much, but not with the 6's!

Does this sound normal, and me putting in a hotter plug clearly makes no difference, or should they have not been black, and it means the engine is MASSIVELY overfueling??
 
It may only be the idle circuit thats rich, get an emissions test done, any MOT station can tell you where your mixture is.
 
NGK heat range 7 is actually NOT one step colder. OEM Heat ranges are 7 for NGK and 6 for BOSCH (they use a different scale). NGK goes up the scale for colder, BOSCH goes down.

Is you are running more boost (you are because you are tuned) I would suggest running a colder plug to pull more residual heat from the combustion chamber, since these are high compression engines. I personally recommend the Bosch FR5DTC.

https://jhmotorsports.com/shop/cata...trode-bosch-heat-range-18t-20t-27t-p-686.html


I talk more in depth about spark plugs in my build thread here: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/552666-(Jake-JHM’s)-2008-B7-A4-2-0T-Product-Development-Build-Thread?p=9060324&viewfull=1#post9060324

If anyone has any questions regarding spark plugs, please don't hesitate to ask me.

Jake
 
thanks for the info, but NGK heat ranges for OEM are normally 6 going by most websites, how come its 7 then?
 
For the 2.0T FSI:

NGK-PFR7S8EG (Heat Range 7)
https://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/spark-plug-oem-ngk-laser-platinum-for-b7-a4-20t-p-1833.html

BOSCH-FR6KPP332S (Heat Range 6)
https://jhmotorsports.com/shop/cata...h-long-life-platinum-for-b7-a4-20t-p-357.html

Those are the two spark plugs types that came in the B7 A4 2.0T from the factory.

Heat range 6 for NGK is OEM for the 1.8T, which is a lower compression engine. The 2.0T High comprsession engines require colder plugs because compression = heat. Which is why the 1.8T and 2.0T did not get the same plugs from the factory.
 
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For a while, a lot of companies were not educated on FSI - High Compression engines because they were new and these companies that just sell parts don't take the time to actually do research (sad, but true). We saw a lot of companies grab the 1.8T spark plugs and just call them 2.0T spark plugs so this misinformation was spread for a few years.

We are a company that specializes in high performance Audis, we develop parts and software so it is our job to know this kind of information.
 
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b7boostin said:
NGK heat range 7 is actually NOT one step colder. OEM Heat ranges are 7 for NGK and 6 for BOSCH (they use a different scale). NGK goes up the scale for colder, BOSCH goes down.

Is you are running more boost (you are because you are tuned) I would suggest running a colder plug to pull more residual heat from the combustion chamber, since these are high compression engines. I personally recommend the Bosch FR5DTC.

https://jhmotorsports.com/shop/cata...trode-bosch-heat-range-18t-20t-27t-p-686.html


I talk more in depth about spark plugs in my build thread here: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/552666-(Jake-JHM’s)-2008-B7-A4-2-0T-Product-Development-Build-Thread?p=9060324&viewfull=1#post9060324

If anyone has any questions regarding spark plugs, please don't hesitate to ask me.

Jake
Click to expand...

with regards to this, I agree totally, however, your website doesnt seem to make sense, as it says that the higher the NGK number, the hotter the plug, and vice versa for Bosch. I'm sure its just a typo, but thought I'd let you know
 
Can you show me where?

The higher the number for NGK is colder, The higher the number for BOSCH is hotter.
 
Its in both of the spark plug links you listed. In the middle of the product page, it says: "NOTE: Lower number Bosch are colder and Higher Number NGK are Hotter"


also, I appreciate that you know far more than me about plugs etc, but I still dont see anywhere that says the BKR7E is the standard plug for a 2.0t with a k03 turbo? Even the audi parts system say the NGK 6 is the standard heat range.

However, the NGK 7 heat range is standard for 2.0t with a k04 turbo, so maybe your thinking of a different car/engine/turbo config
 
Yeah, that is definitely a typo! I will notify our webmaster, thank you!

Originally Audi tried using the heat range 6 NGK but had to update it relatively quickly because it was too hot a plug for a stock car. In the United States at least, when you go to the Audi Dealership for spark plugs they will give you a Bosch 6 or an NGK 7.
 
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